Examples how symbolism can explain away almost anything
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Salam all,
I'll just post a few links here showing articles in which symbolic interpretations can even be applied to hadith and explain away the most ridiculous absurdities. This should at least motivate those symbolists on free-minds, like idolfree, to rethink on their ideology of interpreting the Quran
http//www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547528&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
http//www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547520&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
Thus we see that using a symbolic interpretation doesnt help in the search of Divine Truth and the real message of GOD. GOD Bless! -
Salaamun alaikum,
Johny, if you're against metaphorical/symbolic interpretations, you need to also admit that the number 19 is nothing but the number of malaaika over saqr. THAT'S the literal interpretation. Accept it and you can drop this 19 thing once and for all.
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Peace "phoneix1",
peace JK,
those explanations given aren't that great.
And as for the quran, there really isn't any other way you can interpret it and still make sense out of it. Nothing in the quran makes sense if you look at it literally.JK- In that case you might just wanna discard the Quran as is the case with hadith? What diference is there then between the Quran and other religious scriptures? For me the Quran makes perfect sense literally and metaphorically where it is mentioned so that we know whats intended. The Quran has BOTH literal and symbolic parts and both stand out clearly. GOD Bless!
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Peace "mquran",
Salaamun alaikum,
Johny, if you're against metaphorical/symbolic interpretations, you need to also admit that the number 19 is nothing but the number of malaaika over saqr. THAT'S the literal interpretation. Accept it and you can drop this 19 thing once and for all.
JK- No, thats your literal interpretation and understanding. You see only saqr and hell. Long sicussions have been done on this issue. 19ophobic person's cannot see the miracle. They see only a fitnah and hellfire like you do. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix1",
peace JK,
How do you then know which stories are allegorical and which are not?
JK- The context usually tells you i.e. we do careful reading and contextual analysis. Mostly however an allegory is preceded or followed by the word "mathal" meaning "example/allegory".
and just because something can be explained through symbolism doesn't mean it has authority over the quran.
JK- My point was that you can explain away all absurdities even in the Bible if you rely on symbolism only. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you Jonny K,
Thanks for the advice. I agree that symbolism can be taken aywhere, thats why you have to tie it in to objective , verifyable, life behavior. This way you remain grounded.
What symbolic interpretation of mine gives you the most discomfort? Lets talk about it.
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Peace "idolfree",
What symbolic interpretation of mine gives you the most discomfort? Lets talk about it.
JK- The LEGAL LAWS mentioned in the Quran like 100 lashes in public for adultery, marking of theives' hands, etc being interpreted symbolically. Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future. We just have to be patient and see. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you JK,
JK- The LEGAL LAWS mentioned in the Quran like 100 lashes in public for adultery,
I dont think I have ever given a statement about that, so not sure what you are disagreeing with.
marking of theives' hands, etc being interpreted symbolically.
Does it say mark or cut? I honestly cant remember because I havent discussed that in a while. However I do recall that the argument against the literal had to do something with forgiveness.
(539) So who repented from after his injustice/oppression, and he corrected , so surely The God forgives on him, surely The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
What happens if the hand is already cut?
Also, what kind of mark should it be? Please elaborate on how long of a cut it is, and what part of the hand it should be, etc.
You will see that this cannot be literal as the instructions are not given further as to what kind of cut.
My cat scratched me last month and I have a mark that has not gone away, does this mean others should think I am a thief? What about people who work in construction or chefs or anyone who gets cuts on thier hands, are they to be looked upon as thiefs?
Do you see how this does not add up (no pun intended)?
Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future. We just have to be patient and see. GOD Bless!
Thats fine, I am waiting too D I wonder though why the enslaved Africans in America never got a Moses, or the Jews under Hitler, or why the tsunami victims or people in New Orleans could not get a "prophet" to perfom miracles to move the water. There have been several oppurtunities to see such things, but it does not happen.
Are you aware that these stories of virgin births, children put in baskets in the water, floods, ressurections, etc etc have been told since before the "Koran" and "Bible"? They are old metaphoric stories, why would we stop at this point and make them now literal?
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...Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future.
salam.
i also have this feeling that the 'signs' mentioned in the Quran may be repeated . and the 'extraordinary' things mentioned in the Quran will turn out to be true for those who disbelieve in them . like for example , Quran informs that nabi Solomon knew that ants could communicate and he also knew what the ants say to one another ,but people would disbelieve in that . but now we know that ants can communicate very well . but people still disbelive in it and call it symbolic ! -
Peace "idolfree",
Does it say mark or cut? I honestly cant remember because I havent discussed that in a while. However I do recall that the argument against the literal had to do something with forgiveness.
(539) So who repented from after his injustice/oppression, and he corrected , so surely The God forgives on him, surely The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
What happens if the hand is already cut?
Also, what kind of mark should it be? Please elaborate on how long of a cut it is, and what part of the hand it should be, etc.
You will see that this cannot be literal as the instructions are not given further as to what kind of cut.
JK- This is GOD's mercy. The details of how deep the cut should be is left up to us to decide. Id say the greater the theft, the deeper the mark. Simple. I see no problem here at all.
My cat scratched me last month and I have a mark that has not gone away, does this mean others should think I am a thief? What about people who work in construction or chefs or anyone who gets cuts on thier hands, are they to be looked upon as thiefs?
JK- You can very easily distinguish between a genuine put mark with a knife by humans and that put by accident or animal scratches. This is not a problem at all.
Do you see how this does not add up (no pun intended)?
JK- No, i see that it is perfectly fine.
Thats fine, I am waiting too I wonder though why the enslaved Africans in America never got a Moses, or the Jews under Hitler, or why the tsunami victims or people in New Orleans could not get a "prophet" to perfom miracles to move the water. There have been several oppurtunities to see such things, but it does not happen.
JK- As GOD says in the Quran that He is with those who have patience and steadfastly persevere. So ill just be patient and not make such claims.
Are you aware that these stories of virgin births, children put in baskets in the water, floods, ressurections, etc etc have been told since before the "Koran" and "Bible"? They are old metaphoric stories, why would we stop at this point and make them now literal?
JK- This only shows me that GOD did repeat these miracles in the past as well. So what makes you think He wont repeat them in the future? I believe He will, GW. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you JK,
Brother, you are free to your understanding
I choose knowledge over belief.
I hope the person who has to have thier hands amputated or gets into a fight with someone with a knife doesnt get accussed of being a thief.
Again, I too am waiting. That suffices me
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Salam "idolfree",
Brother, you are free to your understanding D
JK- And you are free to yours.
I choose knowledge over belief.
JK- Me too. I analysed code-19 patterns with knowledge and thus believe in all Quran. Now i can comfotably accelt all that it says as i might have mentioned before. And btw the Quran tells us that we are to believe in the Unseen as well.
I hope the person who has to have thier hands amputated or gets into a fight with someone with a knife doesnt get accussed of being a thief.
JK- Again as i told you there are methods to distinuish the pattern of a cut which has been put in a certain predefined position from one that occurs at random, by accident.
Again, I too am waiting. That suffices me D
JK- Ok. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you,
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ?
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
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Peace "idolfree",
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ?
JK- I knew it one day somebody would make a remark about this. As you may have noticed i put all the people's IDs in inverted commas so that the ID stands out. I didnt mean to cause any irony.
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
JK- Near the wrist, id say. Theres a lot of place there for many linear cuts. If he steals again, another cut a defined no of cms away from the 1st one which would be the same distance for all further cuts. One can be imaginative and use criss cross cuts too but all well defined. It can even be defined by a matemtical formula or algorithm so that the cuts go on and it can always be seen from the pattern whether the cuts are accidental or from theft. GOD Bless!
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JK- No, thats your literal interpretation and understanding. You see only saqr and hell. Long sicussions have been done on this issue. 19ophobic person's cannot see the miracle. They see only a fitnah and hellfire like you do. GOD Bless
Hey, you want it both ways! Don't blame me, blame the Quran! It only say that over saqr is 19 malaika, nothing else. So take THAT literally. I don't see a fitnah at all, btw.
JK- My point was that you can explain away all absurdities even in the Bible if you rely on symbolism only.
No you can't because the bible doesn't stipulate RULES of interpretation. Al-quraan tells you HOW to interpret it (no, no counting is involved) .
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Peace be upon you,
What happens when the magnificent human body mends itself? What happens if the cut heals and goes away?
I thought we had a covenant not to shed blood?
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Peace be upon you,
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ? D
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
Mate I read a silly hadith, that a thief stole and they brought him to the prophet, the prophet ordered to kill him, they wondered and they told him that he only stole, so the prophet ordered to cut one of his hands, later the same guy stole again, and what happened before happened again when they were prosecuting him, but they ended cutting his second hand, the same happen for the third time "i wonder how he manged to steal using his legs shock ), anyway the same happened as before but they ended cutting one of his legs "now that is against the Quran", anyway the same bloody thing happen for the fourth time and they ended cutting his other leg
this is just holy crap bro lol