Examples how symbolism can explain away almost anything
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Peace be upon you Jonny K,
Thanks for the advice. I agree that symbolism can be taken aywhere, thats why you have to tie it in to objective , verifyable, life behavior. This way you remain grounded.
What symbolic interpretation of mine gives you the most discomfort? Lets talk about it.
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Peace "idolfree",
What symbolic interpretation of mine gives you the most discomfort? Lets talk about it.
JK- The LEGAL LAWS mentioned in the Quran like 100 lashes in public for adultery, marking of theives' hands, etc being interpreted symbolically. Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future. We just have to be patient and see. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you JK,
JK- The LEGAL LAWS mentioned in the Quran like 100 lashes in public for adultery,
I dont think I have ever given a statement about that, so not sure what you are disagreeing with.
marking of theives' hands, etc being interpreted symbolically.
Does it say mark or cut? I honestly cant remember because I havent discussed that in a while. However I do recall that the argument against the literal had to do something with forgiveness.
(539) So who repented from after his injustice/oppression, and he corrected , so surely The God forgives on him, surely The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
What happens if the hand is already cut?
Also, what kind of mark should it be? Please elaborate on how long of a cut it is, and what part of the hand it should be, etc.
You will see that this cannot be literal as the instructions are not given further as to what kind of cut.
My cat scratched me last month and I have a mark that has not gone away, does this mean others should think I am a thief? What about people who work in construction or chefs or anyone who gets cuts on thier hands, are they to be looked upon as thiefs?
Do you see how this does not add up (no pun intended)?
Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future. We just have to be patient and see. GOD Bless!
Thats fine, I am waiting too D I wonder though why the enslaved Africans in America never got a Moses, or the Jews under Hitler, or why the tsunami victims or people in New Orleans could not get a "prophet" to perfom miracles to move the water. There have been several oppurtunities to see such things, but it does not happen.
Are you aware that these stories of virgin births, children put in baskets in the water, floods, ressurections, etc etc have been told since before the "Koran" and "Bible"? They are old metaphoric stories, why would we stop at this point and make them now literal?
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...Next i also object to the miracles/signs like that of Moses' rod turning into a serpent, dividing of the sea, raising the dead, etc being all just symbolical instead of literal. I believe all these signs/miracles are mentioned by GOD because they may be repeated in the future.
salam.
i also have this feeling that the 'signs' mentioned in the Quran may be repeated . and the 'extraordinary' things mentioned in the Quran will turn out to be true for those who disbelieve in them . like for example , Quran informs that nabi Solomon knew that ants could communicate and he also knew what the ants say to one another ,but people would disbelieve in that . but now we know that ants can communicate very well . but people still disbelive in it and call it symbolic ! -
Peace "idolfree",
Does it say mark or cut? I honestly cant remember because I havent discussed that in a while. However I do recall that the argument against the literal had to do something with forgiveness.
(539) So who repented from after his injustice/oppression, and he corrected , so surely The God forgives on him, surely The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
What happens if the hand is already cut?
Also, what kind of mark should it be? Please elaborate on how long of a cut it is, and what part of the hand it should be, etc.
You will see that this cannot be literal as the instructions are not given further as to what kind of cut.
JK- This is GOD's mercy. The details of how deep the cut should be is left up to us to decide. Id say the greater the theft, the deeper the mark. Simple. I see no problem here at all.
My cat scratched me last month and I have a mark that has not gone away, does this mean others should think I am a thief? What about people who work in construction or chefs or anyone who gets cuts on thier hands, are they to be looked upon as thiefs?
JK- You can very easily distinguish between a genuine put mark with a knife by humans and that put by accident or animal scratches. This is not a problem at all.
Do you see how this does not add up (no pun intended)?
JK- No, i see that it is perfectly fine.
Thats fine, I am waiting too I wonder though why the enslaved Africans in America never got a Moses, or the Jews under Hitler, or why the tsunami victims or people in New Orleans could not get a "prophet" to perfom miracles to move the water. There have been several oppurtunities to see such things, but it does not happen.
JK- As GOD says in the Quran that He is with those who have patience and steadfastly persevere. So ill just be patient and not make such claims.
Are you aware that these stories of virgin births, children put in baskets in the water, floods, ressurections, etc etc have been told since before the "Koran" and "Bible"? They are old metaphoric stories, why would we stop at this point and make them now literal?
JK- This only shows me that GOD did repeat these miracles in the past as well. So what makes you think He wont repeat them in the future? I believe He will, GW. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you JK,
Brother, you are free to your understanding
I choose knowledge over belief.
I hope the person who has to have thier hands amputated or gets into a fight with someone with a knife doesnt get accussed of being a thief.
Again, I too am waiting. That suffices me
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Salam "idolfree",
Brother, you are free to your understanding D
JK- And you are free to yours.
I choose knowledge over belief.
JK- Me too. I analysed code-19 patterns with knowledge and thus believe in all Quran. Now i can comfotably accelt all that it says as i might have mentioned before. And btw the Quran tells us that we are to believe in the Unseen as well.
I hope the person who has to have thier hands amputated or gets into a fight with someone with a knife doesnt get accussed of being a thief.
JK- Again as i told you there are methods to distinuish the pattern of a cut which has been put in a certain predefined position from one that occurs at random, by accident.
Again, I too am waiting. That suffices me D
JK- Ok. GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you,
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ?
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
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Peace "idolfree",
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ?
JK- I knew it one day somebody would make a remark about this. As you may have noticed i put all the people's IDs in inverted commas so that the ID stands out. I didnt mean to cause any irony.
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
JK- Near the wrist, id say. Theres a lot of place there for many linear cuts. If he steals again, another cut a defined no of cms away from the 1st one which would be the same distance for all further cuts. One can be imaginative and use criss cross cuts too but all well defined. It can even be defined by a matemtical formula or algorithm so that the cuts go on and it can always be seen from the pattern whether the cuts are accidental or from theft. GOD Bless!
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JK- No, thats your literal interpretation and understanding. You see only saqr and hell. Long sicussions have been done on this issue. 19ophobic person's cannot see the miracle. They see only a fitnah and hellfire like you do. GOD Bless
Hey, you want it both ways! Don't blame me, blame the Quran! It only say that over saqr is 19 malaika, nothing else. So take THAT literally. I don't see a fitnah at all, btw.
JK- My point was that you can explain away all absurdities even in the Bible if you rely on symbolism only.
No you can't because the bible doesn't stipulate RULES of interpretation. Al-quraan tells you HOW to interpret it (no, no counting is involved) .
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Peace be upon you,
What happens when the magnificent human body mends itself? What happens if the cut heals and goes away?
I thought we had a covenant not to shed blood?
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Peace be upon you,
Why are you putting my name like this "idolfree" ? D
If it was up to you, where would the cut be placed? What happens if they steal again after getting the specially placed cut?
Mate I read a silly hadith, that a thief stole and they brought him to the prophet, the prophet ordered to kill him, they wondered and they told him that he only stole, so the prophet ordered to cut one of his hands, later the same guy stole again, and what happened before happened again when they were prosecuting him, but they ended cutting his second hand, the same happen for the third time "i wonder how he manged to steal using his legs shock ), anyway the same happened as before but they ended cutting one of his legs "now that is against the Quran", anyway the same bloody thing happen for the fourth time and they ended cutting his other leg
this is just holy crap bro lol
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Hi all,
The punishment for theft Marking of the hand.
And how does this help?
Peace!
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Peace "idolfree",
Peace be upon you,
What happens when the magnificent human body mends itself? What happens if the cut heals and goes away?
JK- Then that would be a mecy from GOD for the thief, simple. But if steals more and as a result gets more cuts, then at some time scars will apeear which wont go off anymore.
I thought we had a covenant not to shed blood?
JK- This expression refers to murder not a mere cut and btw it refers to innocent people NOT those who commit mischief on earth who need to be punished for their crimes. GOD Bless!
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Peace "mquran",
Hey, you want it both ways! Don't blame me, blame the Quran! It only say that over saqr is 19 malaika, nothing else. So take THAT literally. I don't see a fitnah at all, btw.
JK- NO it doesnt. AT least not in myunderstanding and in that of many others. As i said i believe GOD blocked you from seeing the rest. You see only angels upon hellfire, nothing else. I see a great prophecy of GOD being fulfilled and an awesome perpetual miracle.
No you can't because the bible doesn't stipulate RULES of interpretation. Al-quraan tells you HOW to interpret it (no, no counting is involved) .
JK- The boundaries of Al-Quran are UNDEFINED without code-19. GOD Bless!
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Peace "mquran",
The punishment for thieves CANNOT be taken literally because it would contradict
- The story of Yusuf
- The rule of Qisas.
use al-quraan to tafseer al-quraan. 19 doesn't help much, Johny.
JK- It doesnt cotradict anything in my view. Can you explain how it does? GOD Bless!
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JK- The boundaries of Al-Quran are UNDEFINED without code-19. GOD Bless!
Two things
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What 19 is was defined by RK, not al-quraan. Al-quraan, as you've admitted before, never told you to go on a counting spree.
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Are you saying that up to RK, people didn't know what the boundary of al-quraan was, thus were making tafseer without authentication?
JK- It doesnt cotradict anything in my view. Can you explain how it does? GOD Bless!
Sure, the story of Yusuf from 12/70-77 explains this where as-saariq/the thief was was given just 'rewards'.
The law of qisaas is explained in 5/45 and tells us that equivalency is the order. So if you steal a cup, you don't pay back with a hand.
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Peace "mquran",
Two things
- What 19 is was defined by RK, not al-quraan. Al-quraan, as you've admitted before, never told you to go on a counting spree.
JK- I dont wanna repeat myself over and over again. It was authorized by GOD not in the wording you like or apprecciate but we clearly understand it that way.
- Are you saying that up to RK, people didn't know what the boundary of al-quraan was, thus were making tafseer without authentication?
JK- I knew it. I just knew it this claim waould ncome up agian. "what about the ppl beforre RK? What did they do? Werent there innocents before RK, bla, bla, bla". Man, WHY DONT YOU FORGET ABOUT THE PAST. We dont know 1) What kinna signs those people received from GOD or what mehthod GOD used to show His true Quran to them in tnhe past 2) we dont even know if there were any sincere people back then since the "muslms" were severely corrupted so GOD may have calculated the time in which people would be bad, etc, etc. So the simple answer is "we DONT KNOW". We are interested in what we have and see now from GOD and we are supposed to appreciate that.
Sure, the story of Yusuf from 12/70-77 explains this where as-saariq/the thief was was given just 'rewards'.
JK- At that time the rule for stealing was different. Remember Quran has certain changes even for fasting when it says that from NOW ON people could have sexual relations during the nights of fasting which was thus not allowed before. You cant say that in Joseph's time the same rule applied as mentioned in 5.38 of Quran.
The law of qisaas is explained in 5/45 and tells us that equivalency is the order. So if you steal a cup, you don't pay back with a hand.
JK- So according to your understanding that would mean if somebody steals from you then you should go and steal from as well? This is nonsense. Thre above verse refers to PHYSICAL attacks/violations of other human beings while in stealing we avoid human contact to take away their property. That's why theres also a difference btw robbery and tehft. GOD Bless!