The Alcohol debate - new insight.
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Peace all,
The verse that is used to forbid alcohol, wine or intoxicants is 590.
590 O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waal-ansabu waal-azlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona
The word in question is "alkhamru" and is used also in 2219, and 591.
Other uses of this root occur without the definite article and are interpreted in those verses to represent either a covering clothing 2431 or wine (in 4715 and 1241 we can infer that it is a drink).
What is interesting however is that in 1667 we have another word which is used for intoxicant "sakaran"
1667 And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce intoxicants and good provisions. This should be proof for people who understand.
Wamin thamarati alnnakheeli waal-aAAnabi tattakhithoona minhu sakaran warizqan hasanan inna fee thalika laayatan liqawmin yaAAqiloona
Yusuf Ali translates this thus
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.
I wanted to show this because the underlying context or feel is that what is described is of wholesomeness of the provisions thereby derived. This is especially so given the preceding 1666 which also describes wholesome milk as a drink.
The fact that "sakaran" means intoxicant and is included with the wholesome things is therefore very interesting.
Rather than being demonised it is shown as a sign.
So where is the problem?
My impression is that the word "alkhamru" is being mistranslated in 590. The meaning is not wine or intoxicant.
Kh-M-R means to cover, conceal, veil, or hide. In this context as "alkhamru" I believe it means the concealment and intrigue; to hide the truth and veil one's true motives and purposes.
Furthermore, verse 590 also contains the word "almaysiru" and this is translated as gambling. This word comes from the root for Y-S-R; which means ease, gentleness or easiness. One might imagine that gambling means easily gotten gains and losses and this might explain the etymology.
If one takes a more direct approach then a different explanation comes about. "almaysiru" in my opinion does not mean gambling but rather it means "the easy life" or lackadaisical living - easy goingness and laziness without desire to help or contribute. This is especially so in the context surrounding it which calls upon people to obey the message and DO things and not just hang about easily.
So here is a translation of 590 that I propose...
590 O ye who believe! The hiding (of one's motives), the easy life, idols and fortune-telling are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
Given that intoxicants in 1667 are signs for us and are included within wholesome things, I think the prohibition of alcohol is not indicated.
Peace and best regards.
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Interesting !
But,
- Can you explain why sakaran is intoxicant ? Maybe is about grape juice ?
- How would you translate ?
Peace
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Interesting !
But,
- Can you explain why sakaran is intoxicant ? Maybe is about grape juice ?
- How would you translate ?
Peace
2219 They question you about the hiding (of one's motive/belief/intent/?wealth) and the easy life. Say In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say that which is superfluous. Thus the God makes plain to you (His) revelations, that you may reflect.
This verse throws up another shade of meaning regarding "alkhamru".
Since the follow up question is regarding what to spend, presumably to do good deeds - "the hiding" may also mean hoarding and the pretence of not having wealth or hiding one's wealth or ability to spend.
Just a thought for more discussion of "alkhamru".
The derivatives of 'S-K-R' are much more heavily steeped in the meaning of intoxication, being dazed or stuporous states. See 222 for example.
222 The day you witness it, even a nursing mother will discard her infant, and a pregnant woman will abort her fetus. You will see the people staggering, as if they are intoxicated, even though they are not intoxicated. This is because GOD's retribution is so awesome.
Yawma tarawnaha tathhalu kullu murdiAAatin AAamma ardaAAat watadaAAu kullu thati hamlin hamlaha watara alnnasa sukara wama hum bisukara walakinna AAathaba Allahi shadeedun
Regards.
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Peace,
With further thought I believe that "alkhamru" ie. "the hiding" or "the concealment" refers to DISSIMULATION.
dis?sim?u?late
To disguise (one's intentions, for example) under a feigned appearance. See Synonyms at disguise.
To conceal one's true feelings or intentions.
Concealment of the truth about a situation, especially about a state of health, as by a malingerer.
Traditionists associate the term 'taqqiya' with dissimulation - however taqqiya means protection more than a hiding or dissimulation - see 328 for examples of this.
Therefore "alkhamru" fits the true meaning of "dissimulation" (the concealment).
Regards.
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Peace be upon you ,
Interesting idea. I need to check it further for myself.
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Peace truth,
Very interesting, the meaning derived has more significance in terms of guidance and how to reach eternal bliss.
Drinking is an issue where individuals can use common sense but the mention of hiding motives and taking life too easy is interesting because there should be no reason for a person to hide their motives and goals because they fear none but the Most High.
Hiding motives causes problems for people because they cover the truth with lies, it's a tainted lifestyle and can haunt a person trying to be truthful.
Nural
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so perhaps alcohol as a simple pleasure is not prohibited but to use it as so many do, as a way to escape reality and to become someone else, lose inhibitions, is what is prohibited. Look at it this way. In many nations today, one is warned NEVER drink the water (and you should SOOOOO heed the warning) and in many cases the only option, in order to completely avoid water IE ice or water based beverages, is to drink wine beer or spirits. wine was a common considering the time and place, and probably the healthier choice. Perhaps it is all a manner of guiding one into moderation.
just a thought from someone looking in from the far outside I think too many people try to place the words written so long ago into today's context. You have to allow facts of history, geology, culture and society of the time be first in your attempt at interpretation.
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Peace truth,
Very interesting, the meaning derived has more significance in terms of guidance and how to reach eternal bliss.
Hiding motives causes problems for people because they cover the truth with lies, it's a tainted lifestyle and can haunt a person trying to be truthful.
Nural
Peace Nural,
Exactly right.
The sin of hypocrisy which is one of the greater ones is a form of dissimulation - where the person is not what they say they are. They hide the truth of their status from other people.
It's repeated many times that the God knows all of what is concealed/hidden - and this is significant; because these people who do the dissimulation or hide their true nature etc. can only hide it from men and almost invariably hide it for bad reasons. And that form of pretence and hiding can cause massive issues between people and create animosity and hatred just as 591 states.
It is surely a more pervasive problem than alcohol ever could be as everyone is prone to it. In my view dissimulation is more likely what "alkhamru" is.
Regards.
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Peace Truth,
Excellent work and analysis, bro. Thank you for the food for thought. So far, it seems to make a lot of sense and fit into the context better as well.
Thus, the context of 590 using your understanding becomes one of shortcuts hiding as opposed to owning up, easy life as opposed to righteous life, idols without substance as opposed to Allah, and fortune telling as opposed to accountability. The same can be said of 2219
Very interesting indeed.Peace,
Tay -
Peace
sawtooth wrote
just a thought from someone looking in from the far outside I think too many people try to place the words written so long ago into today's context. You have to allow facts of history, geology, culture and society of the time be first in your attempt at interpretationyes an no... IMO quran is on ongoing revelation. A meaning could have been preponderant during the time of revelation, but could evolve with the circumstances and the attaining of further knowledge. This is also why i believe many verses that have been taken litterarily (lashing in public aso) should not be used in that manner nowadays - which doesn't change the fact that "zina" is wrong.
Back to alcohol It is bad for us when we exagerate, become dependant. But this is already covered by a verse indicating that god does not like the "gluttonous" (sorry don't know how u spell this) as well as the general message of the reading which is to always keep balance. So yes, the deeper meaning of 5.90 could be in "truth" analysis.
lk
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Peace to all
O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541(41)
Peace be with all
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Peace to all
O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541
Peace be with allDear Ahmed,
Perhaps you are unaware of it, but by applying this verse to what I have presented for discussion you are changing the context of what I have said. You are condemning it without examining it.
3917 As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants. And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefor give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen
3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
More later.
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Peace to all
O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541
Peace be with allDear Ahmed,
Perhaps you are unaware of it, but by applying this verse to what I have presented for discussion you are changing the context of what I have said. You are condemning it without examining it.
3917 As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants. And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefor give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen
3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
More later.
Peace mate
I didn't condemn anything, I only presented another possibility from the Quran
this in effect means I virtually agreed that what you said can be a possibility but I also presented another possibility
peace be with you
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Peace
sawtooth wrote
just a thought from someone looking in from the far outside I think too many people try to place the words written so long ago into today's context. You have to allow facts of history, geology, culture and society of the time be first in your attempt at interpretationyes an no... IMO quran is on ongoing revelation. A meaning could have been preponderant during the time of revelation, but could evolve with the circumstances and the attaining of further knowledge. This is also why i believe many verses that have been taken litterarily (lashing in public aso) should not be used in that manner nowadays - which doesn't change the fact that "zina" is wrong.
Back to alcohol It is bad for us when we exagerate, become dependant. But this is already covered by a verse indicating that god does not like the "gluttonous" (sorry don't know how u spell this) as well as the general message of the reading which is to always keep balance. So yes, the deeper meaning of 5.90 could be in "truth" analysis.
lk
I was just struck by the interpretation of "disguise" or "Hiding intentions" as that is very much what someone abusing alcohol and drugs does. they hide their true self behind the veil of the intoxicant. But like I said i am on the far outside looking in. my observations are based soley on the words written here as I have never so much as opened a Koran in my life
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Peace
Interesting option.
But
2/219 says that in khamr there is good and bad but since the bad is bigger than the good we should leave it.
I think that this reference suits the common view of "intoxicants, what covers the mind" much more than the idea of "hiding truth, intentions".
In my humble opinion, "intoxicants, what covers the mind" makes much more sense here.Also please consider that the mentioned maysir (easy life, I agree) in 5/90 is used with the wa as a cognate to khamr.
In fact, the use of intoxicants is always a common and almost necessary cognate to having an "easy life".
Concealing the truth is not.Nevertheless, the qur'?nic message in general does of course ask us to reveal the truth and not play hypocritical games. So, seeing the term in that context maybe would not corrupt the basic teaching at all.
Likewise the qur'?nic message also asks us to consume what is wholesomely good (tayyib), which regular consumation of alcohol and other intoxicants is definitely not ( disadvantages of it largely outrule the few objective advantages and they are by definition toxic - poisonous - substancees).
And the qur'?n teaches the necessity of a sound mind and it tells us in 4/43 that we shall not come close to as-sal?t when intoxicated.So, maybe both interpretations would suit the rest of the qur'?nic message.
Though I tend to prefer the idea of "what covers the mind" out of above mentioned reasons.
I think it is quite possible for qur'?nic terms to refer to metaconcepts that become appliable in different situations.peace again,
Leyla
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Peace
now this is great, we have a verse in the Quran that says there will be rivers of Khamr, hence there will be rivers of what covers our mind
makes great sense indeed, but I don't want to go to that garden with rivers of things that will cover my mind
peace
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Peace Ahmed
Great! Thanks for reminding us of that!
I think that really settles the issue.However, I think you misunderstood something from my post. With "what covers the mind" I did refer to intoxicants, since they cover our minds and our thinking.
Look, in my first longer paragraph I wrote "intoxicants, what covers the mind".
That?s also how most scholars derive the meaning of khamr.So, we share the same opinion here! Don?t see a dispute when there is none! ) I already tended to think that khamr is alcohol, intoxicants before and as I said this suits the cognate with maysir in 5/90 in the best way.
Thanks again for reminding us of the verse!
peace again,
Leyla
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Sister
I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc
therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine
thanks
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Sal?m Ahmed
Ok, that?s a good objection in that context.
Though I would like to add that in the qur'?n we are told that things in paradise will not be like their equivalents on earth.
Thus we are not expected to see streams of wine in the earthly sense as well!
And still I think that according to qur'?nic standards it would not be a good idea to become a heroin addict.
However, we do not need to verses on khamr to understand this.Hmm... out of curiousity I simply wonder why alcohole would be singled out especially to the exclusion of other intoxicants?
Any opinion?
This opinion would of course have no influence on the validity of a qur'?nic command. I am just wondering.peace,
Leyla
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Sal?m Ahmed
Ok, that?s a good objection in that context.
Though I would like to add that in the qur'?n we are told that things in paradise will not be like their equivalents on earth.
Thus we are not expected to see streams of wine in the earthly sense as well!
And still I think that according to qur'?nic standards it would not be a good idea to become a heroin addict.
However, we do not need to verses on khamr to understand this.Hmm... out of curiousity I simply wonder why alcohole would be singled out especially to the exclusion of other intoxicants?
Any opinion?
This opinion would of course have no influence on the validity of a qur'?nic command. I am just wondering.peace,
Leyla
Peace sister
the point "the Khamr was the only thing that was mentioned" is simply it is a way of life since the very old days, look around you now and you will know it is an acceptable way of a social life, however it comes with the followings as well
- humans become aggessive
- they drive cars mad
- they stink bad
- it damages the liver big times
- it disturbs the sleep
- it disturbs the digesttic system
- they get a horrible headche 9 times out of 10, if not 10 times in 10
if they drink a lot in one session they can easily die from alcoholic poisson
that was what I can remember but if I search I'm sure I will find a very long list of its disadvantges, I agree that heroin and similar have more horrible outcomes but this is already a crime against the human law in almost every country in the world, but Alcohol is an acceptable social act even in most (so called) muslim contries
can you see the wisdom of Allah to only mention Alcohol?
mentioning the other drugs like heroin is not required because it seems Allah knew "as always" that humans will not accept it as a social act, in addition, humans 1400 years ago possibly didn't know what heroin or coke is therefore if it was mentioned, Mohammad message may have been compromised and they might rejected easily the Alcohol warning because of that
peace