The Alcohol debate - new insight.

unknownuser

Peace to all

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541

(41)

Peace be with all

truth

Peace to all

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541
Peace be with all

Dear Ahmed,

Perhaps you are unaware of it, but by applying this verse to what I have presented for discussion you are changing the context of what I have said. You are condemning it without examining it.

3917 As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants. And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefor give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen

3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

More later.

unknownuser

Peace to all

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
The Quran ; 541
Peace be with all

Dear Ahmed,

Perhaps you are unaware of it, but by applying this verse to what I have presented for discussion you are changing the context of what I have said. You are condemning it without examining it.

3917 As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants. And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefor give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen

3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

More later.

Peace mate

I didn't condemn anything, I only presented another possibility from the Quran

this in effect means I virtually agreed that what you said can be a possibility but I also presented another possibility

peace be with you

sawtooth

Peace

sawtooth wrote
just a thought from someone looking in from the far outside I think too many people try to place the words written so long ago into today's context. You have to allow facts of history, geology, culture and society of the time be first in your attempt at interpretation

yes an no... IMO quran is on ongoing revelation. A meaning could have been preponderant during the time of revelation, but could evolve with the circumstances and the attaining of further knowledge. This is also why i believe many verses that have been taken litterarily (lashing in public aso) should not be used in that manner nowadays - which doesn't change the fact that "zina" is wrong.

Back to alcohol It is bad for us when we exagerate, become dependant. But this is already covered by a verse indicating that god does not like the "gluttonous" (sorry don't know how u spell this) as well as the general message of the reading which is to always keep balance. So yes, the deeper meaning of 5.90 could be in "truth" analysis.

lk

I was just struck by the interpretation of "disguise" or "Hiding intentions" as that is very much what someone abusing alcohol and drugs does. they hide their true self behind the veil of the intoxicant. But like I said i am on the far outside looking in. my observations are based soley on the words written here as I have never so much as opened a Koran in my life

Leyla

Peace

Interesting option.

But

2/219 says that in khamr there is good and bad but since the bad is bigger than the good we should leave it.
I think that this reference suits the common view of "intoxicants, what covers the mind" much more than the idea of "hiding truth, intentions".
In my humble opinion, "intoxicants, what covers the mind" makes much more sense here.

Also please consider that the mentioned maysir (easy life, I agree) in 5/90 is used with the wa as a cognate to khamr.
In fact, the use of intoxicants is always a common and almost necessary cognate to having an "easy life".
Concealing the truth is not.

Nevertheless, the qur'?nic message in general does of course ask us to reveal the truth and not play hypocritical games. So, seeing the term in that context maybe would not corrupt the basic teaching at all.
Likewise the qur'?nic message also asks us to consume what is wholesomely good (tayyib), which regular consumation of alcohol and other intoxicants is definitely not ( disadvantages of it largely outrule the few objective advantages and they are by definition toxic - poisonous - substancees).
And the qur'?n teaches the necessity of a sound mind and it tells us in 4/43 that we shall not come close to as-sal?t when intoxicated.

So, maybe both interpretations would suit the rest of the qur'?nic message.
Though I tend to prefer the idea of "what covers the mind" out of above mentioned reasons.
I think it is quite possible for qur'?nic terms to refer to metaconcepts that become appliable in different situations.

peace again,

Leyla

unknownuser

Peace

now this is great, we have a verse in the Quran that says there will be rivers of Khamr, hence there will be rivers of what covers our mind

makes great sense indeed, but I don't want to go to that garden with rivers of things that will cover my mind

peace

Leyla

Peace Ahmed

Great! Thanks for reminding us of that!
I think that really settles the issue.

However, I think you misunderstood something from my post. With "what covers the mind" I did refer to intoxicants, since they cover our minds and our thinking.
Look, in my first longer paragraph I wrote "intoxicants, what covers the mind".
That?s also how most scholars derive the meaning of khamr.

So, we share the same opinion here! Don?t see a dispute when there is none! ) I already tended to think that khamr is alcohol, intoxicants before and as I said this suits the cognate with maysir in 5/90 in the best way.

Thanks again for reminding us of the verse!

peace again,

Leyla

unknownuser

Sister

I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc

therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine

thanks

Leyla

Sal?m Ahmed

Ok, that?s a good objection in that context.
Though I would like to add that in the qur'?n we are told that things in paradise will not be like their equivalents on earth.
Thus we are not expected to see streams of wine in the earthly sense as well!
And still I think that according to qur'?nic standards it would not be a good idea to become a heroin addict.
However, we do not need to verses on khamr to understand this.

Hmm... out of curiousity I simply wonder why alcohole would be singled out especially to the exclusion of other intoxicants?
Any opinion?
This opinion would of course have no influence on the validity of a qur'?nic command. I am just wondering.

peace,

Leyla

unknownuser

Sal?m Ahmed

Ok, that?s a good objection in that context.
Though I would like to add that in the qur'?n we are told that things in paradise will not be like their equivalents on earth.
Thus we are not expected to see streams of wine in the earthly sense as well!
And still I think that according to qur'?nic standards it would not be a good idea to become a heroin addict.
However, we do not need to verses on khamr to understand this.

Hmm... out of curiousity I simply wonder why alcohole would be singled out especially to the exclusion of other intoxicants?
Any opinion?
This opinion would of course have no influence on the validity of a qur'?nic command. I am just wondering.

peace,

Leyla

Peace sister

the point "the Khamr was the only thing that was mentioned" is simply it is a way of life since the very old days, look around you now and you will know it is an acceptable way of a social life, however it comes with the followings as well

humans become aggessive
they drive cars mad
they stink bad
it damages the liver big times
it disturbs the sleep
it disturbs the digesttic system
they get a horrible headche 9 times out of 10, if not 10 times in 10
if they drink a lot in one session they can easily die from alcoholic poisson

that was what I can remember but if I search I'm sure I will find a very long list of its disadvantges, I agree that heroin and similar have more horrible outcomes but this is already a crime against the human law in almost every country in the world, but Alcohol is an acceptable social act even in most (so called) muslim contries

can you see the wisdom of Allah to only mention Alcohol?

mentioning the other drugs like heroin is not required because it seems Allah knew "as always" that humans will not accept it as a social act, in addition, humans 1400 years ago possibly didn't know what heroin or coke is therefore if it was mentioned, Mohammad message may have been compromised and they might rejected easily the Alcohol warning because of that

peace

truth

Sister

I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc

therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine

thanks

Peace Ahmed,

Let's look at this a little more...

4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

You are aware that I see these verses as symbolic. In this particular verse that you are bringing into the discussion even you cannot dispute this since the verse is clearly headed by "Mathalu" - that this is an example; an allegory or symbol of the bliss promised.

You are confusing the issue slightly though. No one is saying that "khamr" means "intoxicant" - that was mentioned for 1667 where intoxicants are being derived from grapes and date palms and relates to the root S-K-R.

My position is that "alkhamru" with the definite article is something other than "drinkable wine".

The reasons for this are

1667 puts intoxicants among the provisions. "Drinkable wine" is therefore amongst the provisions (since grapes are mentioned).
In 443 we are told to not approach 'salat' intoxicated. This is acknowledging that people will use the intoxicants of the earth.
There is "wine" served in the garden symbolically. Note that gold and silk are also served in the garden and yet they have become criminally forbidden by traditionists. These things relate to the good things; the best things in fact. Why would "khamr" being depicted as "wine" be shown as a symbol of bliss and good?
The occasions that "khamr" without the definite article are used are in firstly the prisoner's DREAM with Joseph's interpretation (two instances in chapter 12); and secondly as a symbol of a blissful state in the AFTERLIFE (4715). In both the dream and the description of heaven the "khamr" is a symbol for something else and not "drinkable wine".
The context of the mentions of "khamr" in chapter 12's dreams gives it as 'pressing' wine, and 'pouring' wine; and in 4715 there are 'rivers' of wine. This context of a liquid and drinking etc. is entirely absent from 590-1.
Many words have more than one meaning. The definite article can change the meaning. The form without the "al" - eg. "yawm" is any day, but "al-yawm" is "the Day" (there are many examples like this) which is a totally different nuance. The instances in 590-1 where "alkhamru" are mentioned are distinct from the non-articled mentions in nature.
The God could have used the word "sakaran" in 590 to mean all intoxicants and then the issue would be closed because wine, cannabis, hallucinogens etc. would all become things reviled. But there is a nuance in the "alkhamru" that people have not realised in my opinion.
The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

Finally I want to just point out that even plain sugar can be a "poison". To the diabetic this sweet and wonderful provisions is a posion and can kill them in excess.

Regards.

esimsek100

The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

Regards.

Peace,

This is probably the main point.

Hiding and easy life are definite traits of Iblis. Whereas I can't really see alcohol being a problem. I mean such things are said, like, "Your true personality comes out when your drunk".

You can get as drunk as you want but really in the end you still have control over YOUR CHOICES. I know because I have been THAT drunk, I am still aware of the choices I make. I'd have to add in that no harm comes from me when I'm drunk, in fact I'm probably more open with people.

And as truth has said before, there is a verse that acknowledges that muslims can get drunk. It's illogical, it makes no rational sense. If alcohol is forbidden then there is no way the Quran should mention that muslims shouldn't approach salat while intoxicated.

That being said, I'm still going to look into it.

Oh by the way just to list the harms of hiding and easy life.

*Hiding-

You have small lie after small lie after small lie until one day they all blow up in your face. And perhaps the most harmful 'hiding' is not being truthful to yourself.

e.g. traditionalist 'muslims' who see the evidence about hadiths, sunnah, imams, mullahs, etc but yet sweep it under the carpet and ignore what was revealed to them.

Isn't that the biggest sin of all.

*Easy life-

What do you gain???
Absolutely nothing, you live off the blood off others.

unknownuser

Sister

I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc

therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine

thanks

Peace Ahmed,

Let's look at this a little more...

4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

You are aware that I see these verses as symbolic. In this particular verse that you are bringing into the discussion even you cannot dispute this since the verse is clearly headed by "Mathalu" - that this is an example; an allegory or symbol of the bliss promised.

Peace Oben,

NO, you are wrong here, the word ?Mathal? means in the context a description of the real Garden, not the metaphoric concept you are pushing hard that will put many verses in the Quran in fault

It is you lacking the knowledge what the Arabic word ?mathal? means a description btw it means many things and depends on the context

In the above verse it means a description to the real garden

You are confusing the issue slightly though. No one is saying that "khamr" means "intoxicant" - that was mentioned for 1667 where intoxicants are being derived from grapes and date palms and relates to the root S-K-R.

Not really, the word ?S K R? 1667 can easily mean ?Sugar?, because Alcohol is not made from the dates we get from palm trees, the verse clearly mention Palm trees, . ?Nakhil?

My position is that "alkhamru" with the definite article is something other than "drinkable wine".

For the word ?Khamr? global meaning, yes, it means food that is slightly off, I guess you know the right word better than me, but ?Khamr? is exclusively used for Alcohol/Wine in the Arabic world, and the other substance is called ?Khamirah?, not ?Khamr?

The reasons for this are

1667 puts intoxicants among the provisions. "Drinkable wine" is therefore amongst the provisions (since grapes are mentioned).

I guess the verse does not call it halal, it is only mentioning the fact that Allah created the grapes and humans make wine from it, on the other hand the verse described all the other good things we can get from those trees as ?Rizqan Hasanan?, i.e. it was designed by Allah for that purpose, however humans USE IT TO MAKE WINE, Allah never told us to make wine of it.

In 443 we are told to not approach 'salat' intoxicated. This is acknowledging that people will use the intoxicants of the earth.

But, it is an acknowledgment that intoxicants are not allowed, Allah is just being accurate in here that He knows we will break that logical sense and become intoxicated so He does not want us to abuse our Salat by trying to perform it while we are intoxicated

There is "wine" served in the garden symbolically. Note that gold and silk are also served in the garden and yet they have become criminally forbidden by traditionists. These things relate to the good things; the best things in fact. Why would "khamr" being depicted as "wine" be shown as a symbol of bliss and good?

Most of the Garden descriptions are not symbolic, the Khamr in the garden was described as something good in all aspects, like tasting, it will never make us intoxicated and we will never get headache from it. See the difference, also being a reward may give the inclination that it was something Allah wanted us not to come near it in this test, the Quran was clear that we should not come NEAR IT

The occasions that "khamr" without the definite article are used are in firstly the prisoner's DREAM with Joseph's interpretation (two instances in chapter 12);

It was a dream, but the verse was clear that the Khamr was drinkable, i.e. something to drink

and secondly as a symbol of a blissful state in the AFTERLIFE (4715). In both the dream and the description of heaven the "khamr" is a symbol for something else and not "drinkable wine".

Come on bro, the Quran explains itself, not left to the people to explain as they wish, 4715 is clear that it is RIVERS, i.e. what flaws in it MUST BE LIQUID and FOR THE DRINKERS

The context of the mentions of "khamr" in chapter 12's dreams gives it as 'pressing' wine, and 'pouring' wine; and in 4715 there are 'rivers' of wine. This context of a liquid and drinking etc. is entirely absent from 590-1.

So?, that is why the Quran explains itself, THIS IS A VERY KNOWN FACT ABOUT THIS BOOK, this is what is meant that it is fully detailed, i.e. the verses will explain each other

Many words have more than one meaning. The definite article can change the meaning. The form without the "al" - eg. "yawm" is any day, but "al-yawm" is "the Day" (there are many examples like this) which is a totally different nuance. The instances in 590-1 where "alkhamru" are mentioned are distinct from the non-articled mentions in nature.

Nice try bro, Al adds noting to the meaning, it is called ?Al Al Muarafah? and has nothing to do with it here, Khamr = Al Khamr in meaning, in fact ?Al Khamr? suppose to be more specific because of the Al in it, IT IS REQUIRED BY GRAMMAR within the verses where Al was used, obviously you know nothing about the Arabic grammar, this is a common knowledge in Arabic, Al, does not change any meaning of any word

Logically speaking, Day = The day

The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

well, sex outside the wedlock can also be used within societies harmlessly if cautions is taken care of, but Allah has forbidden it and we should not come near it, exactly as Al Khamr or Khamr

Finally I want to just point out that even plain sugar can be a "poison". To the diabetic this sweet and wonderful provisions is a posion and can kill them in excess.

Regards.

Well, we are talking about the general rules here, not the exceptions

Best regards

unknownuser

It is a silly argument to accuse other muslims who are not sunni followers as being as such when their understanding is similar to the sunni understanding, this is very ridiculous to be honest

I base my understanding on the CLEAR ARABIC WORDS

KHAMR means "Drinkable Alcohol", this is in the Arabic language taugh at schools in all arabic countries, it is the same in the street language in all arabic countries, and it is also the same in the Arabic Quran

forget the sunni, it is obvious after the above 3 facts I mentioned, that Khamr means "drinable Alcohol"

now after trying to blame the sunni, let's try and blame the arabs for their understanidng of their mother tongue language

peace

unknownuser

Here is a good example to respond to those who claim, if the Quran says not to come near the Salat while "Inroxicated" then it means we are allowed to drink it while not performing salat. firstly the verse was clear for the reason not to perform salat while not intoxicated, because WE MUST BE AWARE OF WHAT WE SAY DURING SALAT

if we look athe the following verse where the same word "La Taqrabo" was used, we will see clearly that if the condition does not exist the action is still not allowed

And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.

(34)

would the above mean that we are ALLOWED to draw near to the property of the orphan in a bad way if they attain their maturity ?

of course not

The prohibition of Alcohol was clear in another verse, but because drinking Alcohol is nothing but a sin that a believer can commit, Allah is telling us if we do it then we sould not come near the Salat, the reason is simply we will be intoxicated and we may not be aware of what we say during Salat, at least we will not be able to achieve true humbling and our minds will just go everywhere when performing salat while intoxicated

Intoxication "Sakara". can also mean legal drugs that is taken to treat a diseases but will make us intoxicated, the verse is very accurate indeed to mention our status of being intoxicated "Sakara" as the condition of not coming near salat, the verse never said when we drink Khamr, we should not come near Salat, and the word "Sakar" does not always means intoxication from Alacohol, it can mean any type of intoxication, in fact the death was described that it has its own intoxication "Sakarat Al Mawt", therefore, to take that verse about not performing salat because of being intoxicated of Alacohol only, is a very big mistake because the verse never mentioned "Khamr"

peace

esimsek100

Peace,

My arabic is extremely limited, probably close to non-existant. But I do believe that the Quran, in a way, is enough of a dictionary to define what the word exactly means.

What I'm getting at, is that today it may mean drinkable alcohol, but words, as well as understanding, evolve. 1600 yrs ago the arabs were sacrificing their daughters, until a certain prophet came along, and now arabic customs have evolved to not allow sacrifices of humans.

You can point to any words amount of words you like, but the fact remains that it is illogical to suggest that a muslim would be intoxicated, if indeed it is banned.

Remember Allah never runs out of words, and is complete and perfect, so why not put in a verse that says-

"And do not perform salat unless you are sure of your oath"?????

Why the need to say "don't perform the salat if you are intoxicated"???

We are talking about a complete and perfect being, that has written a book to include the smallest detail.

I have always had my doubts about alcohol being banned.

The main reason being, say for example someone was to commit a crime while they were intoxicated. Now, as generally happens, they blame the intoxication for the crime. They aren't 'really' at fault because they were drunk. Is that an excuse? No! I point to one verse 1736 that shows no matter what the circumstances you are RESPONSIBLE for YOUR CHOICES.

I fail to see the harm of alcohol.

Islam is about attaining peace (while upholding a belief in one god), peace means control over ones self, a deeper understanding, an enlightenment.

I'm sorry but I just cannot see the harm in alcohol, the person is always to blame. The effect of alcohol is the same as having a group of your mates encouraging you to do something foolish. YOU still have the choice of whether you do it or not.

unknownuser

Peace

we must translate it as "while being intoxicated" because it is included in the arabic Quran unless you want to drop a few words from the arabic verse?

Also 1600 years ago, "Alcohol and wine was as popular as today and was known as Khamr

peace

Leyla

Peace truth, also esimsek, all

Just a note, though this may not directly be related to discussing the true meaning of these verses from a etymological point of view

Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case.

I think you obviously did not have too many experiences with really regular drinkers of wine ..... ;c).
It can, like every alcoholical beverage, be a source of extreme hatred and animosity and many other dangers.

Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God.

That?s why, in my humble opionion, the qur'?n also mentions that there is many good in khamr.

However, the few health advantages in it can also be reached by more harmless products which don?t share its disadvantages.
According to some medical specialists the idea that small amounts of wine are harmless is a myth. Every amount carries physical dangers.
Also, even one glass of wine is not horribly dangerous and does not really intoxicate, it will already lower your discipline of not drinking maybe one or two more glasses of it or really not driving a car with it etc..
Furthermore, the `inspirationnal feeling? caused by even one glass is already a mild toxic reaction and I think it is sad that some people seek this instead of having a true and profound inspiration.

If you ask me one should be highly sceptical of every source spreading myth about the benefits of alcohole or e.g. the disadvantages of the time of US alcohole prohibition etc. because obviously there is a very big and well paying industry behind wine and all other alcoholic beverages.
I wouldn?t trust this capitalistic power much.

And just yesterday I saw an interesting report on tv that although not every single drinker of alcoholic beverages might be in direct danger there is a clear and non disputable relationship between the per head amount of alcohol drunken in a country and the amount of alcoholism, liver diseases, intoxication induced violence, other drug abuse, death through car accidents etc..
So, the more `harmlessly? it is used in a culture, even if most people are not affected by these dangers, the higher will be the percentage of people affected by these dangers.

While I think we should discuss about the real meanign of khamr and think your theory to be worth thinking about, there is no point in undermining the dangers of alcohol.
Of course even plain sugar can be poison.
But still there is a magnificent difference here.
I tell you, even if alcohole should not be forbidden in the qur'?n in direct words, in my opinion it is clear that a regular consume of it is not tayyib and believers should seek to consume what is tayyib.

Also, I didn?t really get why in your opinion the khamr? would in 5/90 be used as a cognate to maysir?.
I do perefctly agree with you that maysir is `easy life, having an easy time?.
But I see no direct conceptual relationship between having an easy time and hiding truth.
I would not automatically accuse everyone having a lot of easy time to constantly hide the truth to cause animosity.
However, easy life in all cultures is intrinsically connected to the marketing and use of intoxicants.

peace again,

Leyla

unknownuser

Sister Leyla

What you said regarding the enmosity and hatred BETWEEN US that is instigated by Alcohol is actually mentioned in the Quran

90- O ye who believe! wine/alcohol and gambling and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Shaitan'shandworkLeave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

91- Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with wine and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from Salat will ye not then abstain?

(90)

(91)

-> Verse 590 is very clear three deeds that we should LEAVE ASIDE, those three deeds are "wine/alcohol, gambling and (divination by) arrows", because these deeds "are an abomination,- of Shaitan's handwork" therefore we were told by Allah to "Leave it aside", why? "in order that ye may succeed.",

-> What is striking is, only two of the three bad deeds were mentioned in the 591 as easy means of depolyment for the Shaitan to cause enmosity and hatred BETWEEN US, those two deeds are "GAMBLING AND ALCOHOL", the third bad deed mentioned in 590 "(divination by) arrows" is not mentioned here,because it is only a violation to the belief and can not be used easily by the Shaitan to cause enmosity and hatred between us

I read every day in the newspapers, many ugly fights (and even murders) and the common cause is Alcohol, it is also a common crime for many people to steal money from their employers to feed their gambling habit and they end up in jail, also we see most of the causes for the ugly stories on Jerry springer is Alcohol, it is been used as a geniune excuse, what a shame

The ones who are not blind and have knwledge can easily see the wisdom of prohibiting these two very bad deeds

Peace

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed, Leyla, et al

I'd like your comments on the following

Even though 5/90 mentions 'al-khamr', 'al-maysir' , 'al-ansab' and 'al-azlaam' (4 items) and they are min (crucial word, this) amalish shaitaan, why does the command say fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Why isnt it 'fa ajtanibuHUM' ?
Why is it 'innaMAA al-khamr' and not 'inna al-khamr'. Any idea?
What are al-ansaab and al-azlaam. Nasb appears in al-quraan but doesn't mean 'divinination' or 'altars'.