The Alcohol debate - new insight.

unknownuser

Sal?m Ahmed

Ok, that?s a good objection in that context.
Though I would like to add that in the qur'?n we are told that things in paradise will not be like their equivalents on earth.
Thus we are not expected to see streams of wine in the earthly sense as well!
And still I think that according to qur'?nic standards it would not be a good idea to become a heroin addict.
However, we do not need to verses on khamr to understand this.

Hmm... out of curiousity I simply wonder why alcohole would be singled out especially to the exclusion of other intoxicants?
Any opinion?
This opinion would of course have no influence on the validity of a qur'?nic command. I am just wondering.

peace,

Leyla

Peace sister

the point "the Khamr was the only thing that was mentioned" is simply it is a way of life since the very old days, look around you now and you will know it is an acceptable way of a social life, however it comes with the followings as well

humans become aggessive
they drive cars mad
they stink bad
it damages the liver big times
it disturbs the sleep
it disturbs the digesttic system
they get a horrible headche 9 times out of 10, if not 10 times in 10
if they drink a lot in one session they can easily die from alcoholic poisson

that was what I can remember but if I search I'm sure I will find a very long list of its disadvantges, I agree that heroin and similar have more horrible outcomes but this is already a crime against the human law in almost every country in the world, but Alcohol is an acceptable social act even in most (so called) muslim contries

can you see the wisdom of Allah to only mention Alcohol?

mentioning the other drugs like heroin is not required because it seems Allah knew "as always" that humans will not accept it as a social act, in addition, humans 1400 years ago possibly didn't know what heroin or coke is therefore if it was mentioned, Mohammad message may have been compromised and they might rejected easily the Alcohol warning because of that

peace

truth

Sister

I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc

therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine

thanks

Peace Ahmed,

Let's look at this a little more...

4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

You are aware that I see these verses as symbolic. In this particular verse that you are bringing into the discussion even you cannot dispute this since the verse is clearly headed by "Mathalu" - that this is an example; an allegory or symbol of the bliss promised.

You are confusing the issue slightly though. No one is saying that "khamr" means "intoxicant" - that was mentioned for 1667 where intoxicants are being derived from grapes and date palms and relates to the root S-K-R.

My position is that "alkhamru" with the definite article is something other than "drinkable wine".

The reasons for this are

1667 puts intoxicants among the provisions. "Drinkable wine" is therefore amongst the provisions (since grapes are mentioned).
In 443 we are told to not approach 'salat' intoxicated. This is acknowledging that people will use the intoxicants of the earth.
There is "wine" served in the garden symbolically. Note that gold and silk are also served in the garden and yet they have become criminally forbidden by traditionists. These things relate to the good things; the best things in fact. Why would "khamr" being depicted as "wine" be shown as a symbol of bliss and good?
The occasions that "khamr" without the definite article are used are in firstly the prisoner's DREAM with Joseph's interpretation (two instances in chapter 12); and secondly as a symbol of a blissful state in the AFTERLIFE (4715). In both the dream and the description of heaven the "khamr" is a symbol for something else and not "drinkable wine".
The context of the mentions of "khamr" in chapter 12's dreams gives it as 'pressing' wine, and 'pouring' wine; and in 4715 there are 'rivers' of wine. This context of a liquid and drinking etc. is entirely absent from 590-1.
Many words have more than one meaning. The definite article can change the meaning. The form without the "al" - eg. "yawm" is any day, but "al-yawm" is "the Day" (there are many examples like this) which is a totally different nuance. The instances in 590-1 where "alkhamru" are mentioned are distinct from the non-articled mentions in nature.
The God could have used the word "sakaran" in 590 to mean all intoxicants and then the issue would be closed because wine, cannabis, hallucinogens etc. would all become things reviled. But there is a nuance in the "alkhamru" that people have not realised in my opinion.
The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

Finally I want to just point out that even plain sugar can be a "poison". To the diabetic this sweet and wonderful provisions is a posion and can kill them in excess.

Regards.

esimsek100

The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

Regards.

Peace,

This is probably the main point.

Hiding and easy life are definite traits of Iblis. Whereas I can't really see alcohol being a problem. I mean such things are said, like, "Your true personality comes out when your drunk".

You can get as drunk as you want but really in the end you still have control over YOUR CHOICES. I know because I have been THAT drunk, I am still aware of the choices I make. I'd have to add in that no harm comes from me when I'm drunk, in fact I'm probably more open with people.

And as truth has said before, there is a verse that acknowledges that muslims can get drunk. It's illogical, it makes no rational sense. If alcohol is forbidden then there is no way the Quran should mention that muslims shouldn't approach salat while intoxicated.

That being said, I'm still going to look into it.

Oh by the way just to list the harms of hiding and easy life.

*Hiding-

You have small lie after small lie after small lie until one day they all blow up in your face. And perhaps the most harmful 'hiding' is not being truthful to yourself.

e.g. traditionalist 'muslims' who see the evidence about hadiths, sunnah, imams, mullahs, etc but yet sweep it under the carpet and ignore what was revealed to them.

Isn't that the biggest sin of all.

*Easy life-

What do you gain???
Absolutely nothing, you live off the blood off others.

unknownuser

Sister

I think the scholars are wrong because if they are not then we should expect RIVERS of liquid speed, Es, Heroin, Cannabis etc etc

therefor I believe Khamr only means drinkable alcohol or drinkable wine

thanks

Peace Ahmed,

Let's look at this a little more...

4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

You are aware that I see these verses as symbolic. In this particular verse that you are bringing into the discussion even you cannot dispute this since the verse is clearly headed by "Mathalu" - that this is an example; an allegory or symbol of the bliss promised.

Peace Oben,

NO, you are wrong here, the word ?Mathal? means in the context a description of the real Garden, not the metaphoric concept you are pushing hard that will put many verses in the Quran in fault

It is you lacking the knowledge what the Arabic word ?mathal? means a description btw it means many things and depends on the context

In the above verse it means a description to the real garden

You are confusing the issue slightly though. No one is saying that "khamr" means "intoxicant" - that was mentioned for 1667 where intoxicants are being derived from grapes and date palms and relates to the root S-K-R.

Not really, the word ?S K R? 1667 can easily mean ?Sugar?, because Alcohol is not made from the dates we get from palm trees, the verse clearly mention Palm trees, . ?Nakhil?

My position is that "alkhamru" with the definite article is something other than "drinkable wine".

For the word ?Khamr? global meaning, yes, it means food that is slightly off, I guess you know the right word better than me, but ?Khamr? is exclusively used for Alcohol/Wine in the Arabic world, and the other substance is called ?Khamirah?, not ?Khamr?

The reasons for this are

1667 puts intoxicants among the provisions. "Drinkable wine" is therefore amongst the provisions (since grapes are mentioned).

I guess the verse does not call it halal, it is only mentioning the fact that Allah created the grapes and humans make wine from it, on the other hand the verse described all the other good things we can get from those trees as ?Rizqan Hasanan?, i.e. it was designed by Allah for that purpose, however humans USE IT TO MAKE WINE, Allah never told us to make wine of it.

In 443 we are told to not approach 'salat' intoxicated. This is acknowledging that people will use the intoxicants of the earth.

But, it is an acknowledgment that intoxicants are not allowed, Allah is just being accurate in here that He knows we will break that logical sense and become intoxicated so He does not want us to abuse our Salat by trying to perform it while we are intoxicated

There is "wine" served in the garden symbolically. Note that gold and silk are also served in the garden and yet they have become criminally forbidden by traditionists. These things relate to the good things; the best things in fact. Why would "khamr" being depicted as "wine" be shown as a symbol of bliss and good?

Most of the Garden descriptions are not symbolic, the Khamr in the garden was described as something good in all aspects, like tasting, it will never make us intoxicated and we will never get headache from it. See the difference, also being a reward may give the inclination that it was something Allah wanted us not to come near it in this test, the Quran was clear that we should not come NEAR IT

The occasions that "khamr" without the definite article are used are in firstly the prisoner's DREAM with Joseph's interpretation (two instances in chapter 12);

It was a dream, but the verse was clear that the Khamr was drinkable, i.e. something to drink

and secondly as a symbol of a blissful state in the AFTERLIFE (4715). In both the dream and the description of heaven the "khamr" is a symbol for something else and not "drinkable wine".

Come on bro, the Quran explains itself, not left to the people to explain as they wish, 4715 is clear that it is RIVERS, i.e. what flaws in it MUST BE LIQUID and FOR THE DRINKERS

The context of the mentions of "khamr" in chapter 12's dreams gives it as 'pressing' wine, and 'pouring' wine; and in 4715 there are 'rivers' of wine. This context of a liquid and drinking etc. is entirely absent from 590-1.

So?, that is why the Quran explains itself, THIS IS A VERY KNOWN FACT ABOUT THIS BOOK, this is what is meant that it is fully detailed, i.e. the verses will explain each other

Many words have more than one meaning. The definite article can change the meaning. The form without the "al" - eg. "yawm" is any day, but "al-yawm" is "the Day" (there are many examples like this) which is a totally different nuance. The instances in 590-1 where "alkhamru" are mentioned are distinct from the non-articled mentions in nature.

Nice try bro, Al adds noting to the meaning, it is called ?Al Al Muarafah? and has nothing to do with it here, Khamr = Al Khamr in meaning, in fact ?Al Khamr? suppose to be more specific because of the Al in it, IT IS REQUIRED BY GRAMMAR within the verses where Al was used, obviously you know nothing about the Arabic grammar, this is a common knowledge in Arabic, Al, does not change any meaning of any word

Logically speaking, Day = The day

The direct meaning of "the hiding" or "the concealment" fits completely into the context of these verses. The nature of the devil's work is steeped in creating false and evil motives that must be disguised and hidden. The steering away from these horrible things is a must for us all. Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case. Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God. Dissimulation, deception, disguising of things will always cause animosity and hatred between people and isolate them from each other's best interests.

well, sex outside the wedlock can also be used within societies harmlessly if cautions is taken care of, but Allah has forbidden it and we should not come near it, exactly as Al Khamr or Khamr

Finally I want to just point out that even plain sugar can be a "poison". To the diabetic this sweet and wonderful provisions is a posion and can kill them in excess.

Regards.

Well, we are talking about the general rules here, not the exceptions

Best regards

unknownuser

It is a silly argument to accuse other muslims who are not sunni followers as being as such when their understanding is similar to the sunni understanding, this is very ridiculous to be honest

I base my understanding on the CLEAR ARABIC WORDS

KHAMR means "Drinkable Alcohol", this is in the Arabic language taugh at schools in all arabic countries, it is the same in the street language in all arabic countries, and it is also the same in the Arabic Quran

forget the sunni, it is obvious after the above 3 facts I mentioned, that Khamr means "drinable Alcohol"

now after trying to blame the sunni, let's try and blame the arabs for their understanidng of their mother tongue language

peace

unknownuser

Here is a good example to respond to those who claim, if the Quran says not to come near the Salat while "Inroxicated" then it means we are allowed to drink it while not performing salat. firstly the verse was clear for the reason not to perform salat while not intoxicated, because WE MUST BE AWARE OF WHAT WE SAY DURING SALAT

if we look athe the following verse where the same word "La Taqrabo" was used, we will see clearly that if the condition does not exist the action is still not allowed

And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.

(34)

would the above mean that we are ALLOWED to draw near to the property of the orphan in a bad way if they attain their maturity ?

of course not

The prohibition of Alcohol was clear in another verse, but because drinking Alcohol is nothing but a sin that a believer can commit, Allah is telling us if we do it then we sould not come near the Salat, the reason is simply we will be intoxicated and we may not be aware of what we say during Salat, at least we will not be able to achieve true humbling and our minds will just go everywhere when performing salat while intoxicated

Intoxication "Sakara". can also mean legal drugs that is taken to treat a diseases but will make us intoxicated, the verse is very accurate indeed to mention our status of being intoxicated "Sakara" as the condition of not coming near salat, the verse never said when we drink Khamr, we should not come near Salat, and the word "Sakar" does not always means intoxication from Alacohol, it can mean any type of intoxication, in fact the death was described that it has its own intoxication "Sakarat Al Mawt", therefore, to take that verse about not performing salat because of being intoxicated of Alacohol only, is a very big mistake because the verse never mentioned "Khamr"

peace

esimsek100

Peace,

My arabic is extremely limited, probably close to non-existant. But I do believe that the Quran, in a way, is enough of a dictionary to define what the word exactly means.

What I'm getting at, is that today it may mean drinkable alcohol, but words, as well as understanding, evolve. 1600 yrs ago the arabs were sacrificing their daughters, until a certain prophet came along, and now arabic customs have evolved to not allow sacrifices of humans.

You can point to any words amount of words you like, but the fact remains that it is illogical to suggest that a muslim would be intoxicated, if indeed it is banned.

Remember Allah never runs out of words, and is complete and perfect, so why not put in a verse that says-

"And do not perform salat unless you are sure of your oath"?????

Why the need to say "don't perform the salat if you are intoxicated"???

We are talking about a complete and perfect being, that has written a book to include the smallest detail.

I have always had my doubts about alcohol being banned.

The main reason being, say for example someone was to commit a crime while they were intoxicated. Now, as generally happens, they blame the intoxication for the crime. They aren't 'really' at fault because they were drunk. Is that an excuse? No! I point to one verse 1736 that shows no matter what the circumstances you are RESPONSIBLE for YOUR CHOICES.

I fail to see the harm of alcohol.

Islam is about attaining peace (while upholding a belief in one god), peace means control over ones self, a deeper understanding, an enlightenment.

I'm sorry but I just cannot see the harm in alcohol, the person is always to blame. The effect of alcohol is the same as having a group of your mates encouraging you to do something foolish. YOU still have the choice of whether you do it or not.

unknownuser

Peace

we must translate it as "while being intoxicated" because it is included in the arabic Quran unless you want to drop a few words from the arabic verse?

Also 1600 years ago, "Alcohol and wine was as popular as today and was known as Khamr

peace

Leyla

Peace truth, also esimsek, all

Just a note, though this may not directly be related to discussing the true meaning of these verses from a etymological point of view

Wine cannot cause the animosity and hatred that 590 mentions in every case.

I think you obviously did not have too many experiences with really regular drinkers of wine ..... ;c).
It can, like every alcoholical beverage, be a source of extreme hatred and animosity and many other dangers.

Wine is used socially and harmlessly in many cultures and is a provision from the God.

That?s why, in my humble opionion, the qur'?n also mentions that there is many good in khamr.

However, the few health advantages in it can also be reached by more harmless products which don?t share its disadvantages.
According to some medical specialists the idea that small amounts of wine are harmless is a myth. Every amount carries physical dangers.
Also, even one glass of wine is not horribly dangerous and does not really intoxicate, it will already lower your discipline of not drinking maybe one or two more glasses of it or really not driving a car with it etc..
Furthermore, the `inspirationnal feeling? caused by even one glass is already a mild toxic reaction and I think it is sad that some people seek this instead of having a true and profound inspiration.

If you ask me one should be highly sceptical of every source spreading myth about the benefits of alcohole or e.g. the disadvantages of the time of US alcohole prohibition etc. because obviously there is a very big and well paying industry behind wine and all other alcoholic beverages.
I wouldn?t trust this capitalistic power much.

And just yesterday I saw an interesting report on tv that although not every single drinker of alcoholic beverages might be in direct danger there is a clear and non disputable relationship between the per head amount of alcohol drunken in a country and the amount of alcoholism, liver diseases, intoxication induced violence, other drug abuse, death through car accidents etc..
So, the more `harmlessly? it is used in a culture, even if most people are not affected by these dangers, the higher will be the percentage of people affected by these dangers.

While I think we should discuss about the real meanign of khamr and think your theory to be worth thinking about, there is no point in undermining the dangers of alcohol.
Of course even plain sugar can be poison.
But still there is a magnificent difference here.
I tell you, even if alcohole should not be forbidden in the qur'?n in direct words, in my opinion it is clear that a regular consume of it is not tayyib and believers should seek to consume what is tayyib.

Also, I didn?t really get why in your opinion the khamr? would in 5/90 be used as a cognate to maysir?.
I do perefctly agree with you that maysir is `easy life, having an easy time?.
But I see no direct conceptual relationship between having an easy time and hiding truth.
I would not automatically accuse everyone having a lot of easy time to constantly hide the truth to cause animosity.
However, easy life in all cultures is intrinsically connected to the marketing and use of intoxicants.

peace again,

Leyla

unknownuser

Sister Leyla

What you said regarding the enmosity and hatred BETWEEN US that is instigated by Alcohol is actually mentioned in the Quran

90- O ye who believe! wine/alcohol and gambling and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Shaitan'shandworkLeave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

91- Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with wine and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from Salat will ye not then abstain?

(90)

(91)

-> Verse 590 is very clear three deeds that we should LEAVE ASIDE, those three deeds are "wine/alcohol, gambling and (divination by) arrows", because these deeds "are an abomination,- of Shaitan's handwork" therefore we were told by Allah to "Leave it aside", why? "in order that ye may succeed.",

-> What is striking is, only two of the three bad deeds were mentioned in the 591 as easy means of depolyment for the Shaitan to cause enmosity and hatred BETWEEN US, those two deeds are "GAMBLING AND ALCOHOL", the third bad deed mentioned in 590 "(divination by) arrows" is not mentioned here,because it is only a violation to the belief and can not be used easily by the Shaitan to cause enmosity and hatred between us

I read every day in the newspapers, many ugly fights (and even murders) and the common cause is Alcohol, it is also a common crime for many people to steal money from their employers to feed their gambling habit and they end up in jail, also we see most of the causes for the ugly stories on Jerry springer is Alcohol, it is been used as a geniune excuse, what a shame

The ones who are not blind and have knwledge can easily see the wisdom of prohibiting these two very bad deeds

Peace

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed, Leyla, et al

I'd like your comments on the following

Even though 5/90 mentions 'al-khamr', 'al-maysir' , 'al-ansab' and 'al-azlaam' (4 items) and they are min (crucial word, this) amalish shaitaan, why does the command say fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Why isnt it 'fa ajtanibuHUM' ?
Why is it 'innaMAA al-khamr' and not 'inna al-khamr'. Any idea?
What are al-ansaab and al-azlaam. Nasb appears in al-quraan but doesn't mean 'divinination' or 'altars'.

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed, Leyla, et al

I'd like your comments on the following

Even though 5/90 mentions 'al-khamr', 'al-maysir' , 'al-ansab' and 'al-azlaam' (4 items) and they are min (crucial word, this) amalish shaitaan, why does the command say fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Why isnt it 'fa ajtanibuHUM' ?
Why is it 'innaMAA al-khamr' and not 'inna al-khamr'. Any idea?
What are al-ansaab and al-azlaam. Nasb appears in al-quraan but doesn't mean 'divinination' or 'altars'.

Thanks for correcting me,you are right ther are 4 bad deeds, sorry it is midnight and was busy washing my wife car and tried yo squeese a comment without concentrating

I'm just about to go to bed and I will reply to you in about 8 hours

good night

Leyla

Sal?m mquran

Even though 5/90 mentions 'al-khamr', 'al-maysir' , 'al-ansab' and 'al-azlaam' (4 items) and they are min (crucial word, this) amalish shaitaan, why does the command say fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Why isnt it 'fa ajtanibuHUM' ?

Very profound discovery which leads us into the right direction!
Well, as we already have seen at other places (e.g. when the qur'?n speaks about alladhina amanu wa amilu-S-Salihati) and as you once have pointed out to meyourself (thanks) the wa often forms inseparable cognates within qur'?nic language.
That?s just my point about the connection to al maysir.
To understand the dangers of al khamr one also needs to understand al maysir, al anSab and al azl?m.
( and that?s why I think that truth? point is a little bit difficult, because he does not consider the implication on his interpretation that this causes)
I would say that in this verse these 4 terms form one single metaconcept and that?s why it is only fa ajtnibuHu.

I agree with truth and others that al maysir is something like ' easy time, easy life' and when seeing this as one facet of a single problematic metaconcept it seems logical to me to see al khamr as things that intoxicate, alcohole etc..
However, I haven?t yet formed an opinion on al anSab and al azl?m
Any ideas?

peace,

Leyla

mquran

I would say that in this verse these 4 terms form one single metaconcept and that?s why it is only fa ajtnibuHu.

Agreed.

I agree with truth and others that al maysir is something like ' easy time, easy life' and when seeing this as one facet of a single problematic metaconcept it seems logical to me to see al khamr as things that intoxicate, alcohole etc..

Right. I believe so as well.

However, I haven?t yet formed an opinion on al anSab and al azl?m

Well, I believe all words will be linked to the root as you do, I think. Al-ansaab to me would be the act of 'apportioning' (nasiban min al-kitaab is a portion of the book), so perhaps its apportioning part of our deens to god and the other part to ourselves. This may be backed up by the fact that Allah tells us to enter into as-silm 'kaffah' holistically and not follow the footsteps of shaitaan, just like 5/90 tells us about shaitaan. Comments ?

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed, Leyla, et al

I'd like your comments on the following

Even though 5/90 mentions 'al-khamr', 'al-maysir' , 'al-ansab' and 'al-azlaam' (4 items) and they are min (crucial word, this) amalish shaitaan, why does the command say fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Why isnt it 'fa ajtanibuHUM' ?
Why is it 'innaMAA al-khamr' and not 'inna al-khamr'. Any idea?
What are al-ansaab and al-azlaam. Nasb appears in al-quraan but doesn't mean 'divinination' or 'altars'.

Good morning

The reason it is fa ajtnibuHU (1 item). Instead of 'fa ajtanibuHUM', is simpley this

The order of Igtinab is refereeing to the singular (Rigsun of the Shaitan work) the 4 bad deeds were described as singular (Rijsun) and that is what we should ?Nagtanib?, you will also note that ?Igtanibuh? is muscular because it is referring to the muscular (Shaitan Rijsun) , 3 out of the 4 bad deeds are actually feminine

Inama is a very common word in Arabic, it is repeated in the Quran at least 180 times, as far as I remember it is a sister to Ina and has the impression of stressing the message more than Ina, I will confirm that when I receive the grammar books, the impornat note is this, Inama is an indpendant word and is not composed of ?Ina + Ma?
Al Ansaab = to erict (build) a stage to be used as a place for scarifying the ?Zabh? to the Idols that human worship, we can see this now days actually in many countries
Al Azlaam = methods of knowing the future ?Ghaib? using arrows, small stones or playing cards to predict the "Ghaib"

Peace

unknownuser

Peace

Maysir can't mean an easy life, it makes NO SENSE, it is very confusing to use the root to extract the meanings of words, i said this many times now but sure the non Arabic speakers insist on not listening,

Anyway, let's look at its logic and see its sense

Allah is suppose to be warning us not to have an easy life, how come if He told us that He is one in charge of making our lives easy and hard?

If we look at prophet Solaiman story, we see, he had a very comfy life, he had even the jinns and the birds as servants, yet it was given to him by Allah, so would that mean Solaiman is a sinner because he accepted the easy life Allah gave it to him?

The general rule for humans is not to have an easy life, this is not managed by us rather by Allah. And the Quran says that in many locations.

What will be the case for the elderly and the teens who don?t work and have a very easy life of just sitting down and watching TV?, are they sinners?

Maysir NEVER mean in Arabic to have an easy life, I agree that Maysir coming from the word ?Easy? , but that is a perfect description to gambling, bloody oath it is easy money

To take this specific definition of gambling by the word very common Arabic word Maysir and globalise it as an easy life then I guess you guys are making things Haram while it is not because the Quran is warning us from that deed, but the Quran also warns big times form making things Haram while it was not stated as such

Peace

mquran

The order of Igtinab is refereeing to the singular (Rigsun of the Shaitan work) the 4 bad deeds were described as singular (Rijsun) and that is what we should Nagtanib, you will also note that Igtanibuh is muscular because it is referring to the muscular (Shaitan Rijsun) , 3 out of the 4 bad deeds are actually feminine

Mate, this is why I mentioned the MIN in 5/90. It's MIN amalush-shaitaan. Therefore, using a singular masculine pronoun cannot be referring to amalush-shaitaan because amalush-shaitaan isn't the subject. Even if just one of the 4 amal are masculine, it would render all of them masculine.

Inama is a very common word in Arabic, it is repeated in the Quran at least 180 times, as far as I remember it is a sister to Ina and has the impression of stressing the message more than Ina, I will confirm that when I receive the grammar books, the impornat note is this, Inama is an indpendant word and is not composed of Ina + Ma

Great, thanks for the info. I will await the answer when you get your grammar books.

Al Ansaab = to erict (build) a stage to be used as a place for scarifying the Zabh to the Idols that human worship, we can see this now days actually in many countries

I have a problem with this because nasb means 'portion'. Of course, this goes against 'world arab usage' and you won't agree. No problem there.

Al Azlaam = methods of knowing the future Ghaib using arrows, small stones or playing cards to predict the "Ghaib"

It would make sense to say that THIS is gambling.

Maysir can't mean an easy life, it makes NO SENSE, it is very confusing to use the root to extract the meanings of words, i said this many times now but sure the non Arabic speakers insist on not listening,

Wow, how did you know that? Not been playing with al-azlaam, have you ?

You're right but hey, we know of our differences so lets use them to obtain a dynamic.

To me, maysir indicates a lack of wanting to push oneself, inertia if you will.

unknownuser

The order of Igtinab is refereeing to the singular (Rigsun of the Shaitan work) the 4 bad deeds were described as singular (Rijsun) and that is what we should ?Nagtanib?, you will also note that ?Igtanibuh? is muscular because it is referring to the muscular (Shaitan Rijsun) , 3 out of the 4 bad deeds are actually feminine

Mate, this is why I mentioned the MIN in 5/90. It's MIN amalush-shaitaan. Therefore, using a singular masculine pronoun cannot be referring to amalush-shaitaan because amalush-shaitaan isn't the subject. Even if just one of the 4 amal are masculine, it would render all of them masculine.

excuse me mate, Igtanibuh in 590 is referring to the Rijsun of the Shaitan, but because the 4 deeds were described as such then we should avoide them and avoide anything that is rijsun for that matter, you need to search the Quran for Rijsun and you will see that there are more Rijsun by the devil than the above 4

Inama is a very common word in Arabic, it is repeated in the Quran at least 180 times, as far as I remember it is a sister to Ina and has the impression of stressing the message more than Ina, I will confirm that when I receive the grammar books, the impornat note is this, Inama is an indpendant word and is not composed of ?Ina + Ma?

Great, thanks for the info. I will await the answer when you get your grammar books.

to be honest, i found it not interesting to have a religious descussion with you, I actually responded to the comment last night thinking it was from leyla, i was very tired it seems, then this morning I discovered that it is yours, so i can't promise that i will be keen to get you an answer really, sorry

Al Ansaab = to erict (build) a stage to be used as a place for scarifying the ?Zabh? to the Idols that human worship, we can see this now days actually in many countries

I have a problem with this because nasb means 'portion'. Of course, this goes against 'world arab usage' and you won't agree. No problem there.

Haha, ignornaance at its max, Nasib is the one that means portion, Nasib also means "Qadar", you always impress me with your ignorance with the arabic language because you work hard to show that you know it a to z lol , but what is funny that you always try to make the arabs look as they are the ignoranst but the truth is surely the contrary

Al Azlaam = methods of knowing the future ?Ghaib? using arrows, small stones or playing cards to predict the "Ghaib"

It would make sense to say that THIS is gambling.

your sense, not the Arabic langugae sense

Maysir can't mean an easy life, it makes NO SENSE, it is very confusing to use the root to extract the meanings of words, i said this many times now but sure the non Arabic speakers insist on not listening,

Wow, how did you know that? Not been playing with al-azlaam, have you ?

another stupid comment by you, let me use my second ear to throw it out of my head without processing

You're right but hey, we know of our differences so lets use them to obtain a dynamic.

well if you know that i'm right, why you asked me how did I know that?

To me, maysir indicates a lack of wanting to push oneself, inertia if you will.

good, I'm glad it is to you only and possibly to others

unknownuser

Here is a verse for you Mquran

Toil shall touch not them, nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave.

(4

I guess the word " " in 1548, should mean "a portion" to you?

see what i mean

Leyla

Peace mquran, Ahmed

mquran Well, I believe all words will be linked to the root as you do, I think.

Yes, I do, mquran.

But we both have a big disagreement with Ahmed here.

So, please Ahmed, forgive me when I don?t say anything about your argumentation now.
I am not ignoring it. I thank you for your efforts but the problem simply is, since we have this basic disagreement over the role and function of qur'?nic language everything I would answer to you would make no sense to you and everything you would say would make no sense to me.
It's like talking in two languages.

I have no personal problem with having this disagreement here. As long as you act like a good person. The problem only is that this disagreement makes it almost impossible for us two to come to any common conclusion in this issue.
But at least we agree that alcohole is not a good idea. wink
And hopefully we also agree on the most basic ethical teachings of al qur'?n.
That?s worth much more.

mquran Al-ansaab to me would be the act of 'apportioning' (nasiban min al-kitaab is a portion of the book), so perhaps its apportioning part of our deens to god and the other part to ourselves. This may be backed up by the fact that Allah tells us to enter into as-silm 'kaffah' holistically and not follow the footsteps of shaitaan, just like 5/90 tells us about shaitaan. Comments ?

I thought about this the whole evening and I agree that ans?b must have something to do with portions.
I am highly considering your suggestion.
But maybe it has something to do with accumulating portions and portioning wealth only for yourself ?? Having a life full of luxury??
That would also suit the conceptual relationship with khamr and maysir, I think.
Hmm.

Leyla