4 witness
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As Salaam Alaikum,
I think that the thing that is suppose to settle the "dirty witness" excuse is the oath that the chaste are suppose to take and the witnesses are suppose to take. Allah ends with it something like "and surely a curse will be on them..." (if they are telling a lie). So after the oaths have been taken, basically, from my belief, you are suppose to leave them alone and leave it to God.
salaam
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I would like to ask a question, What are those 4 people doing in the first place? Enjoying the show? and how could we "trust" those people who "witness" the thing but never try to do anything to stop it?
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Peace be upon you,
EXCELLENT QUESTION!!
I would like to ask a question, What are those 4 people doing in the first place? Enjoying the show? and how could we "trust" those people who "witness" the thing but never try to do anything to stop it?
I think this "4" is tied in somehow with the 4 directions Iblis will try to influence the human, also the 4 brids that Ibrahim instructed and put on mountain tops and called. This 4 is symbolic of something, I just dont know yet.
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Salam,
I once heard it explained that the four witnesses and subsequent punishment was in cases of "indency." Like seeing your neighbor roaming around the alleyway with another man, or similar. I think the verse does not say adultery but is translated as lewdness or immoral conduct (i.e. not zina?)
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Peace be upon you,
Witnessing someone walking around with someone else cannot be the case, that would be pure speculation. There is no telling what they were doing in the alley even though it appears to be bad. Further, will 4 people witness this? This just appears to be very strange circumstances, not very applicable in real life, so I do not think it is being understood properly, in my opinion.
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Salam,
But wouldn't four people watching (or one person who sees it and calls three of his buddies) two people have sex be a little unlikely, too? One does imagine that these people, after confirming the sight, would attempt to stop it and drag the guilty couple to a judge... How does it go?
What is the "lewdness" or "immoral conduct" that is mentioned?
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Peace be upon you Leena,
But wouldn't four people watching (or one person who sees it and calls three of his buddies) two people have sex be a little unlikely, too?
Yes, even more unlikely D
I do not agree with either understanding. I do not know the correct interpretation.
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peace
i think this is a very important question which has to be answered
when i post these questions on the normal sunni forum i get a answer tht i should go n ask these questions should be asked to a scholor or to a imam
isnt there anyone on this forum who can give a satisfactory answer ?
i have started to become quite frustrated now
i have some how reasoned with myself n come to a answer but i dont know how far it is satisfactory
may be u will find my imagination very wild n the below situation may sound funny but at the moment i can think only of this thingmay be the couples were caught while comitting adultery by 4 or more pple , may be they felt suspicious abt the couples n so
they broke the door and went inside
or may be the 4 or more witness heard some noises from the room n so they can tell tht something is wrong in there
n abt lie detectors a excellent suggestion but in olden dayz there werent any lie detectors -
Hi Sawtooth,
My question is why des the punishment always seem harder for women?
Which one?
Peace!
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Salam,
Some interesting comments on these verses, from Muhammad Asad. Quite a lot to read, but it is a worthy analysis, I think.
Some of the commentators attribute to the term fahishah (here rendered as "immoral conduct") the meaning of "adultery" or "fornication" and are, consequently, of the opinion that this verse has been "abrogated" by 242, which lays down the punishment of one hundred stripes for each of the guilty parties. This unwarranted assumption must, however, be rejected.
Quite apart from the impossibility of admitting that any passage of the Qur?an could have been "abrogated" by another of its passages (see note on surah 2 verse 106), the expression fahishah does not, by itself, connote illicit sexual intercourse it signifies anything that is grossly immodest, unseemly, lewd, indecent or abominable in word or in deed (cf. Lane VI, 2344 f.), and is by no means restricted to sexual transgressions.
Read in this context, and in conjunction with 242, this expression obviously denotes here immoral conduct not necessarily amounting to what is termed zina (i.e., "adultery" or "fornication"), and therefore redeemable by sincere repentance (in contrast to a proven act of zina, which is punishable by flogging).
It is noteworthy that in all cases of alleged sexual transgressions or misbehaviour the Qur?an stipulates the direct evidence of four witnesses (instead of the two required in all other judicial cases) as a sine qua non of conviction. For the reasons underlying this injunction, as well as for its judicial implications, see note on 244.
Note on 244 below
By obvious implication, this injunction applies also to cases where a woman accuses a man of illicit sexual intercourse, and is subsequently unable to prove her accusation legally. The severity of the punishment to be meted out in such cases, as well as the requirement of four witnesses - instead of the two that Islamic Law regards as sufficient in all other criminal and civil suits - is based on the imperative necessity of preventing slander and off-hand accusations.
As laid down in several authentic sayings of the Prophet, the evidence of the four witnesses must be direct, and not merely circumstantial in other words, it is not sufficient for them to have witnessed a situation which made it evident that sexual intercourse was taking or had taken place they must have witnessed the sexual act as such, and must be able to prove this to the entire satisfaction of the judicial authority (Razi, summing up the views of the greatest exponents of Islamic Law).
Since such a complete evidence is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to obtain, it is obvious that the purpose of the above Quranic injunction is to preclude, in practice, all third-party accusations relating to illicit sexual intercourse - for, "man has been created weak?? (42 - and to make a proof of adultery dependent on a voluntary, faith-inspired confession of the guilty parties themselves.
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Hi sawtooth,
I read a story a while back about a case involving a brother that raped a sister and produced a child from it. the girl was hanged and the boy recieved a briefe caning. why would that be?
In most societies which are bound to traditional practices and beliefs, what u described may be practised so. Men are considered quite superior to women. And its more like woman's role is to serve men. So, yeah, in those cases, U cant expect fair treatment or trials for women.
Peace!
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Hi sawtooth,
I read a story a while back about a case involving a brother that raped a sister and produced a child from it. the girl was hanged and the boy recieved a briefe caning. why would that be?
In most societies which are bound to traditional practices and beliefs, what u described may be practised so. Men are considered quite superior to women. And its more like woman's role is to serve men. So, yeah, in those cases, U cant expect fair treatment or trials for women.
Peace!
See now it's THAT kind of inequality I support fighting to change. I can respect others wanting to keep a certain dichotomy between men and women that has all but disappeared in the US and other western countries, (It sure hasn't worked very well) but when a woman can be KILLED by LAW for being RAPED, while her rapists gets a slap on the wrist, something needs to be done. There is NO way to justify that.