4 witness
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Salam,
I once heard it explained that the four witnesses and subsequent punishment was in cases of "indency." Like seeing your neighbor roaming around the alleyway with another man, or similar. I think the verse does not say adultery but is translated as lewdness or immoral conduct (i.e. not zina?)
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Peace be upon you,
Witnessing someone walking around with someone else cannot be the case, that would be pure speculation. There is no telling what they were doing in the alley even though it appears to be bad. Further, will 4 people witness this? This just appears to be very strange circumstances, not very applicable in real life, so I do not think it is being understood properly, in my opinion.
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Salam,
But wouldn't four people watching (or one person who sees it and calls three of his buddies) two people have sex be a little unlikely, too? One does imagine that these people, after confirming the sight, would attempt to stop it and drag the guilty couple to a judge... How does it go?
What is the "lewdness" or "immoral conduct" that is mentioned?
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Peace be upon you Leena,
But wouldn't four people watching (or one person who sees it and calls three of his buddies) two people have sex be a little unlikely, too?
Yes, even more unlikely D
I do not agree with either understanding. I do not know the correct interpretation.
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peace
i think this is a very important question which has to be answered
when i post these questions on the normal sunni forum i get a answer tht i should go n ask these questions should be asked to a scholor or to a imam
isnt there anyone on this forum who can give a satisfactory answer ?
i have started to become quite frustrated now
i have some how reasoned with myself n come to a answer but i dont know how far it is satisfactory
may be u will find my imagination very wild n the below situation may sound funny but at the moment i can think only of this thingmay be the couples were caught while comitting adultery by 4 or more pple , may be they felt suspicious abt the couples n so
they broke the door and went inside
or may be the 4 or more witness heard some noises from the room n so they can tell tht something is wrong in there
n abt lie detectors a excellent suggestion but in olden dayz there werent any lie detectors -
Hi Sawtooth,
My question is why des the punishment always seem harder for women?
Which one?
Peace!
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Salam,
Some interesting comments on these verses, from Muhammad Asad. Quite a lot to read, but it is a worthy analysis, I think.
Some of the commentators attribute to the term fahishah (here rendered as "immoral conduct") the meaning of "adultery" or "fornication" and are, consequently, of the opinion that this verse has been "abrogated" by 242, which lays down the punishment of one hundred stripes for each of the guilty parties. This unwarranted assumption must, however, be rejected.
Quite apart from the impossibility of admitting that any passage of the Qur?an could have been "abrogated" by another of its passages (see note on surah 2 verse 106), the expression fahishah does not, by itself, connote illicit sexual intercourse it signifies anything that is grossly immodest, unseemly, lewd, indecent or abominable in word or in deed (cf. Lane VI, 2344 f.), and is by no means restricted to sexual transgressions.
Read in this context, and in conjunction with 242, this expression obviously denotes here immoral conduct not necessarily amounting to what is termed zina (i.e., "adultery" or "fornication"), and therefore redeemable by sincere repentance (in contrast to a proven act of zina, which is punishable by flogging).
It is noteworthy that in all cases of alleged sexual transgressions or misbehaviour the Qur?an stipulates the direct evidence of four witnesses (instead of the two required in all other judicial cases) as a sine qua non of conviction. For the reasons underlying this injunction, as well as for its judicial implications, see note on 244.
Note on 244 below
By obvious implication, this injunction applies also to cases where a woman accuses a man of illicit sexual intercourse, and is subsequently unable to prove her accusation legally. The severity of the punishment to be meted out in such cases, as well as the requirement of four witnesses - instead of the two that Islamic Law regards as sufficient in all other criminal and civil suits - is based on the imperative necessity of preventing slander and off-hand accusations.
As laid down in several authentic sayings of the Prophet, the evidence of the four witnesses must be direct, and not merely circumstantial in other words, it is not sufficient for them to have witnessed a situation which made it evident that sexual intercourse was taking or had taken place they must have witnessed the sexual act as such, and must be able to prove this to the entire satisfaction of the judicial authority (Razi, summing up the views of the greatest exponents of Islamic Law).
Since such a complete evidence is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to obtain, it is obvious that the purpose of the above Quranic injunction is to preclude, in practice, all third-party accusations relating to illicit sexual intercourse - for, "man has been created weak?? (42 - and to make a proof of adultery dependent on a voluntary, faith-inspired confession of the guilty parties themselves.
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Hi sawtooth,
I read a story a while back about a case involving a brother that raped a sister and produced a child from it. the girl was hanged and the boy recieved a briefe caning. why would that be?
In most societies which are bound to traditional practices and beliefs, what u described may be practised so. Men are considered quite superior to women. And its more like woman's role is to serve men. So, yeah, in those cases, U cant expect fair treatment or trials for women.
Peace!
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Hi sawtooth,
I read a story a while back about a case involving a brother that raped a sister and produced a child from it. the girl was hanged and the boy recieved a briefe caning. why would that be?
In most societies which are bound to traditional practices and beliefs, what u described may be practised so. Men are considered quite superior to women. And its more like woman's role is to serve men. So, yeah, in those cases, U cant expect fair treatment or trials for women.
Peace!
See now it's THAT kind of inequality I support fighting to change. I can respect others wanting to keep a certain dichotomy between men and women that has all but disappeared in the US and other western countries, (It sure hasn't worked very well) but when a woman can be KILLED by LAW for being RAPED, while her rapists gets a slap on the wrist, something needs to be done. There is NO way to justify that.
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I have not read the koran nor am I referring to it here. i am only referring to the laws referred to as "Islamic law" that uses such unequal punishmants
Off topic-But what exactly is the point of doing that? I think everyone would agree with you that such inequality is wrong, and very unislamic...making your general point a bit moot. Which is why others are asking you specifically about the Quran.
On topic- I think the 4 witnesses speaks about those who know of what happened, not necessarily those who saw it. If a person commits adultery and tells their best friend, then the BF becomes a witness. I think anyone that has information about the adultery can be a witness, even let's say the staff at a motel where a couple commits the act. There are also those who see how the couple interacts, so if you are there when a couple is flirting with each other indecently, then I think you could be a witness in a case for adultery. Of course, there are strong witnesses and weak witnesses. That is why 4 are mandated, so even if one person lies or forgets, with all the testimony of the 4 people, it is hard to convict someone who is actually innocent. Keep in mind that the witnesses must be good muslims and the testimony of known liars is not taken anyway, so this also helps.
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It's just that I have come up against people that use islam to justify such punishments. I have never figured out exactly how they rationalise that. Same for this four witness thing. It just seems to me that so much of it is made to let men off the hook and women under their thumbs. I ask questions because I have yet to really get a plausible answer that's all. I understand completely the difference between the koran and Islamic law, which is why I did not bring the Koran into it. But I also don't know who to ask other than Muslims.
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Peace Sawtooth- The usual rendering of the 4 witnesses verse against women is in cases of rape. The shariah applies the use of 4 witnesses in order to prove rape. This is obviously stupid as there probably will not be many witnesses for a rape, at least not if the rape is done discreetly. Most rapes are done by people the victim knows, so it is most likely discreet and unexpected, making the 4 witnesses rule quite useless I think. So, when the shariah followers use this rule, the only person left standing is the woman who is pregnant and unmarried, so they punish her. Simply put, people who follow this law are irrational and mysognistic. It is their aim to punish women as they feel as if women are evil. After all is said and done, their laws are unquranic. The Quran allows for a woman who is accused of such a wrongdoing to swear on God(a very good example of this was Aisha who was accused of adultery) that she did not do this crime. If she does swear, then it is assumed that if she is lying, she will be amply punished in the next life. Also, there is a verse that says that those who harass women can be exiled or killed depending on the severity of the harassment. So, I think the Quran is very pro-woman in this area. Leave the shariah followers to themselves. I hope that helps...and others please correct me if I am wrong.