Every kind of similitude....
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salam.
Peace Saladin,
and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
Gravitation. To create a wall of water would require water being held against gravity.
yes , someone was holding sea apart against gravity
250 And We parted the sea for you,...
no law is broken here .
Try it with a glass of water with your hand over the top. Lie the glass on its side and remove your hand in the hope it might stay in the glass.
again ,you are comparing ourselves with God . our experiences are limited . our powers are limited . God can do better than us . right ?
Say someone in the past experienced such a thing and believed in the God because of it. Does that confer an advantage upon that person over you?
Say they saw many instances of it - so that they saw a man's stick turn to snake, then struck against the ground to make springs gush out of the ground, then struck against the sea to create a partition - does that person who experienced such events have an advantage over you?
If the answer is yes, then you must realise that it must be figurative. The God is fair and just.if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Every person who has ever lived has an equal chance to believe - and extraordinary events which people demanded from prophets and messengers never happened physically. No one gets an unfair advantage in a just system.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!) -
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
The reading even challenges people that if it were from any other than the God then it would contain contradictions. To me, an event described which I cannot verify in physical reality is a contradiction and requires an explanation. The explanation for the events in this case must be that they are figurative, otherwise your ability to verify is zero.
Regards.
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salam truth.
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
ok . put aside material wealth .
247 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other .
and by the way we have greater signs in the Koran ,than the ones that previous generations recieved . so it is not unfair .
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
huh?! the verse does not indicate any such thing .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
no . the failure to change the people gives hints about people's mentality .
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
see how most people choose to disbelieve in the glorious Koran . that is how most people are affected by witnessing such things . they still disbelieve in teh signs of God . that is what happened before like when sticks turned into snakes .
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
we verify extra koranic information by using the Koran as a criterion . but the information in the Koran itself is coming from the All-Knower . there is no further need to verify it .
this is my last post on this topic . maybe .
salam )
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Peace
I just wanted to point out that the Quran has to be verified. Every fact, and every command based on facts in the quran is verifiable.
But strangely, most "miracles" and the "historical" stories offer no evidence that they actually happened. Why? because the quran doesn't claim that those events are real and physical.
Putting great importance on verification and at the same time giving us stories without evidence seems contradictory. And it is. But the quran doesn't do that.
What it comes down to in the end is that we can never know if those events actually happened or not (we can safely assume that the ones with the supernatural miracles in it didn't). We can't defend something we have no knowledge of. So instead of trying to prove that the stories are real, we must look into them for meaning and guidance. The quran's not a history book. -
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
By the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos." Its written in very easy to understand language, yet explains so much of science, physics and the world?with some humour here and there thrown in for good measure. I haven't even finished this book myself yet, but the more I read the more insight I feel I have into the Quran!
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Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
I agree. Those are the real miracles that most people fail to see.
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'And i will definately check that book out. sounds good.
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Peace Nazz,
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence?
Exactly bro. And there are miracles all around us.
~Stem cells are miraculous in their own right - identical, yet one becomes a heart cell and it's neighbor a fingernail cell.
~Bacteria that lie dormant for millions of years, yet come to life after being thawed out <---miraculous
~Water = tasteless yet delicious, soft, yet impossible to compress
~Manure=waste, yet, manure=fertilizer shockBy the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Briane Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos."
Thanks for the reference. I really enjoyed watching "The Elegant Universe". For those who are interested and haven't seen it, it's a must...
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.htmlPeace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'
The Key to ife is the "NOTHINGNESS" you are denying (so far).
No-Things only means that Energy/Matter is UNFORMED, like the potters clay. When there is no Differntiation, then there are no FORMS, no OBJECTS to observe, therefore no THINGS.
Everything moves from the ONE UNFORMED, to the many forms. The ONE UNFORMED is the ESSENCE of all FORMS. It is the NOTHINGNESS where we are all connected.
That state of "no things" is what we call PEACE. Energy is at rest. Hiduism calls it NIRVANA (Nir=not Vana=moving). Kamit calls it AMEN, the state of Hetep(peace).
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Peace,
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth. And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion. More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis. They have just come to a different conclusion, or more appropriately many different conclusions. The arguments that they are making as to the myriad of nuances of the Qur?an have been made before.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed. This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you Bu Daddy,
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
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Peace Idolefree1
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
You?re talking like an academic. If I put what you just said in front of your average person what do you think their response would be?
My background is marketing. And it?s difficult enough to get people to switch mobile phone service providers, let alone their religion. For God Alone to reach more people, the sales pitch has to?
Simplify.
I have to go to bed now.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you,
Simplify?
Ok, when you magnify ANY OBJECT of creation, do you record movement? Do the molecules have movement? Even a solid steel beam?
Lets start there.
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peace Idolfree1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing. God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing? we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
And Nazz was implying (i think) that God made everything from nothing. But its not God but us who changed the 'nothing' to 'everything'. -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing.
Its not nothing, its No- THINGS. There is only consciousness, GOD. Te energy/matter of all things is at a state of REST. reation is the differntation of the energy/matter at rest into motion and forms.
God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing?
Not the absence of energy/matter, but the unformed, at rest , state of enegy matter, so there are no OBJECTS to percieve. No THINGS.
we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
Pure consciousness
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Peace BuDaddy,
You stated
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth
What any truth-seeker looks for is a light at the end of the tunnel. We must get the obstacles out of the way before the light is visible. So it's not about turning Islam into confusion under the guise of truth, it is getting through the confusion to reach the truth.
And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Most people never look to see just how solid their foundations are, or more appropriately, are not.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion.
That's cetainly a gloomy outlook and one which I completely disagree with.
More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis.
Please elaborate on this method, as I fail to see that there is one.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed.
The base is already there in 1736.
This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
How does one differentiate between what is 'solid' and what is not?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I?m between meetings and short on time, so I will address your counter in one sweep.
Qur?an alone Muslims are very good at pointing out that the Qur?an is fully detailed, and when it needs to be very specific. This is touted primarily when taking on Traditional Muslims. You point out their use of unclear verses as a vehicle for creating a system you reject. The problem is that once that is done, instead of sticking to the specifics that give you an unassailable argument; God Alone Muslims turn around and start tackling the same verses that got the traditional Muslims in trouble.
Just look at the topic of this thread. Do you not think this has been a topic of debate for nearly fourteen hundred years? How do you think we got ?To fallow the Messenger is to fallow God? = 6 books of hadith?
God tells us that there is content within the Qur?an that we will never understand and that trying to derive it?s meaning will only cause us problems. Just because a Muslim rejects hadith dose not mean they can derive a superior understanding of these unclear verses. And it is this trying to come to a superior understanding of this unclear content that is no different than any Muslim or scholar that has come before. ?God knows what you know not?.
This of course dose not mean that we ignore those verses that are not clear. Indeed, we must contemplate the whole Qur?an. We just have to stop using these verses to derive a system. The system within the Qur?an is simple and clear and easy to pitch, as long as you don?t cloud them with endless interpretations derived from unclear verse.
Cheers, )
Tim
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Peace BuDaddy,
Thanks for clarifying.
I understand where you're coming from, with some reservations. First, I think you're being very vague in your analysis, as well as very broad in the strokes your painting. Second, I think you're being presumptive of people's intentions, ie, "superior understanding".To be clear, Tim, my impression after 2 years in this forum is that this is a place to exchange ideas, to bounce thoughts off of each other. There is no doctrine, no system, no book or interpretation that's pushed. There's no agenda here. We're just looking for the truth.
So, I'm really not sure what or whom your beef is about.
It would make things easier to address if you were specific.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
To be clear, I believe very strongly in Islam through the Qur'an alone. But this is the antithesis of what my beef is.
Qur?an Alone Muslims (or perhaps too many of them) go out of their way to take down traditional Islam and then turn around and offer this.
There is no doctrine, no system, no book or interpretation that's pushed. There's no agenda here. We're just looking for the truth.
If you are going to take down the system that is traditional Islam (which is built on lies), you have to offer something more in return than a never-ending quest for the truth. This will turn people who would be open to the concept of Islam through the Qur?an alone off. It turns me off just as much as traditional Islam.
I live in a Muslim country. Do you know what people here say when these non-definitive rhetorical arguments are made by Qur?an Alone Muslims?
First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Then, when no tangible answer is given then they say ?This is probably just a group of Jews getting together and coming up with a bunch of crap to divide Muslims?. This may sound absurd, but to them so does the notion of leaving the comfort of their (perceived or other wise) well established religion for a ?We're just looking for the truth?.
"We're just looking for the truth", is not a system that can be fallowed. Or do you wish to say there is not a system in Islam? What about the strait path? Don?t tell me the strait path is a vagary of perseption. ?
Cheers,
Tim
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First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Peace Tim,
This is the question that the populace probably asked that got them into trouble in the first place. Seeing other people with man-made religions and rituals the populace who had been freed by the reading couldn't handle the freedom and wanted to go back to a life of rituals. So over time, they invented, borrowed, interpreted, and synthesised a bunch of doctrines that were just as convoluted and wrong as any other before them.
If you are sincere about what you state - following the reading alone, then what else could be the answer to the question above?
The debates that take place around some concepts changes nothing in relation to the key things in the reading - that there is no god other than the God, that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and that you should do good works and live a righteous life.
That you should feed the impoverished, and look after those who can't fend for themselves. To be honest always and completely fair in your practises and trade. All things that would come under the umbrella of righteousness. You already know these things.
What more is there? What else do you want to follow?
Regards.