Every kind of similitude....
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Peace,
If you believe it is a piece of history telling then you are turning the reading into an 'ancient tale' whereas the reading is a living message.
Quran does narrate to us information of the unseen . the stories of the prophets are also information of the unseen . and according the Quran we must believe in the unseen .
I posted in relation to the unseen shortly after this thread...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4694
The unseen to me is literally that. No person alive today has seen any of it - and therefore if it is simply an 'ancient tale' then its point is missed.
If the God has legitimised the use of similitude and figurative language then can you not acknowledge that these 'events' may be relayed in the way they are to explain to us messages which are not just ancient tales but are lessons applicable to you and me?
The argument is not against the underlying historicity of the accounts in the reading; the argument is that the way the events are told is figurative/symbolic and not physical.
That the God's throne or hands are figurative and not physical. That they stand for other things. And similarly that in the events told to us there are lessons for us - both superficial and deep.
Regards.
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salam
The unseen to me is literally that. No person alive today has seen any of it - and therefore if it is simply an 'ancient tale' then its point is missed.
If the God has legitimised the use of similitude and figurative language then can you not acknowledge that these 'events' may be relayed in the way they are to explain to us messages which are not just ancient tales but are lessons applicable to you and me?
every part of every event does not need to be 'applicable' to us . maybe i dont understand , how do u want them to be applicable ?
take for example the 'parting of the sea' event . the lesson that can be learnt,without making it symbolic, is about God's power and how He can help His servants in need .
why does it need to be symbolic ?
salam.
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salam
every part of every event does not need to be 'applicable' to us . maybe i dont understand , how do u want them to be applicable ?
take for example the 'parting of the sea' event . the lesson that can be learnt,without making it symbolic, is about God's power and how He can help His servants in need .
why does it need to be symbolic ?
salam.
So you can see the underlying message regardless. The message is literal but the event is figurative - it is not possible physically and we know that. Our experience of the world as well as physical laws make such an event impossible.
There are some who try to explain the event as a tsunami with a withdrawal of water, or a tidal motion etc. All these attempts to reconcile the event with observable events are acknowledgements of the impossibility of this event as imagined in the popular mindset.
Regards.
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salam.
So you can see the underlying message regardless. The message is literal but the event is figurative - it is not possible physically and we know that.
see , this is the problem . the lessons can be learned from the literal understanding too . but the only reason u r calling the event symbolic , is because u say "it is not possible physically and we know that."
we are not the knower of everything , God is . when the All-Knower is informing us about some extraordinary event , then we know that it is possible .
Our experience of the world as well as physical laws make such an event impossible.
again our experiences in the world are very limited , and does not compare to God's experience . there are things beyond our experiences ,right ? and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
the problem is that those who support the symbolic understanding think that there is nothing that is beyond there knowledge and experience . that is the only reason for calling these verses symbolic .
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Peace Saladin,
and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
Gravitation. To create a wall of water would require water being held against gravity.
Imagine a dam of water; and suddenly the dam wall is lowered - will it stay in its place as a stationary wall or will it flow obeying the pull of gravity?
Try it with a glass of water with your hand over the top. Lie the glass on its side and remove your hand in the hope it might stay in the glass.
Say someone in the past experienced such a thing and believed in the God because of it. Does that confer an advantage upon that person over you?
Say they saw many instances of it - so that they saw a man's stick turn to snake, then struck against the ground to make springs gush out of the ground, then struck against the sea to create a partition - does that person who experienced such events have an advantage over you?
If the answer is yes, then you must realise that it must be figurative. The God is fair and just. Every person who has ever lived has an equal chance to believe - and extraordinary events which people demanded from prophets and messengers never happened physically. No one gets an unfair advantage in a just system.
Regards.
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salam.
Peace Saladin,
and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
Gravitation. To create a wall of water would require water being held against gravity.
yes , someone was holding sea apart against gravity
250 And We parted the sea for you,...
no law is broken here .
Try it with a glass of water with your hand over the top. Lie the glass on its side and remove your hand in the hope it might stay in the glass.
again ,you are comparing ourselves with God . our experiences are limited . our powers are limited . God can do better than us . right ?
Say someone in the past experienced such a thing and believed in the God because of it. Does that confer an advantage upon that person over you?
Say they saw many instances of it - so that they saw a man's stick turn to snake, then struck against the ground to make springs gush out of the ground, then struck against the sea to create a partition - does that person who experienced such events have an advantage over you?
If the answer is yes, then you must realise that it must be figurative. The God is fair and just.if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Every person who has ever lived has an equal chance to believe - and extraordinary events which people demanded from prophets and messengers never happened physically. No one gets an unfair advantage in a just system.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!) -
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
The reading even challenges people that if it were from any other than the God then it would contain contradictions. To me, an event described which I cannot verify in physical reality is a contradiction and requires an explanation. The explanation for the events in this case must be that they are figurative, otherwise your ability to verify is zero.
Regards.
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salam truth.
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
ok . put aside material wealth .
247 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other .
and by the way we have greater signs in the Koran ,than the ones that previous generations recieved . so it is not unfair .
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
huh?! the verse does not indicate any such thing .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
no . the failure to change the people gives hints about people's mentality .
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
see how most people choose to disbelieve in the glorious Koran . that is how most people are affected by witnessing such things . they still disbelieve in teh signs of God . that is what happened before like when sticks turned into snakes .
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
we verify extra koranic information by using the Koran as a criterion . but the information in the Koran itself is coming from the All-Knower . there is no further need to verify it .
this is my last post on this topic . maybe .
salam )
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Peace
I just wanted to point out that the Quran has to be verified. Every fact, and every command based on facts in the quran is verifiable.
But strangely, most "miracles" and the "historical" stories offer no evidence that they actually happened. Why? because the quran doesn't claim that those events are real and physical.
Putting great importance on verification and at the same time giving us stories without evidence seems contradictory. And it is. But the quran doesn't do that.
What it comes down to in the end is that we can never know if those events actually happened or not (we can safely assume that the ones with the supernatural miracles in it didn't). We can't defend something we have no knowledge of. So instead of trying to prove that the stories are real, we must look into them for meaning and guidance. The quran's not a history book. -
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
By the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos." Its written in very easy to understand language, yet explains so much of science, physics and the world?with some humour here and there thrown in for good measure. I haven't even finished this book myself yet, but the more I read the more insight I feel I have into the Quran!
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Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
I agree. Those are the real miracles that most people fail to see.
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'And i will definately check that book out. sounds good.
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Peace Nazz,
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence?
Exactly bro. And there are miracles all around us.
~Stem cells are miraculous in their own right - identical, yet one becomes a heart cell and it's neighbor a fingernail cell.
~Bacteria that lie dormant for millions of years, yet come to life after being thawed out <---miraculous
~Water = tasteless yet delicious, soft, yet impossible to compress
~Manure=waste, yet, manure=fertilizer shockBy the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Briane Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos."
Thanks for the reference. I really enjoyed watching "The Elegant Universe". For those who are interested and haven't seen it, it's a must...
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.htmlPeace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'
The Key to ife is the "NOTHINGNESS" you are denying (so far).
No-Things only means that Energy/Matter is UNFORMED, like the potters clay. When there is no Differntiation, then there are no FORMS, no OBJECTS to observe, therefore no THINGS.
Everything moves from the ONE UNFORMED, to the many forms. The ONE UNFORMED is the ESSENCE of all FORMS. It is the NOTHINGNESS where we are all connected.
That state of "no things" is what we call PEACE. Energy is at rest. Hiduism calls it NIRVANA (Nir=not Vana=moving). Kamit calls it AMEN, the state of Hetep(peace).
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Peace,
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth. And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion. More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis. They have just come to a different conclusion, or more appropriately many different conclusions. The arguments that they are making as to the myriad of nuances of the Qur?an have been made before.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed. This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you Bu Daddy,
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
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Peace Idolefree1
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
You?re talking like an academic. If I put what you just said in front of your average person what do you think their response would be?
My background is marketing. And it?s difficult enough to get people to switch mobile phone service providers, let alone their religion. For God Alone to reach more people, the sales pitch has to?
Simplify.
I have to go to bed now.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you,
Simplify?
Ok, when you magnify ANY OBJECT of creation, do you record movement? Do the molecules have movement? Even a solid steel beam?
Lets start there.
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peace Idolfree1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing. God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing? we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
And Nazz was implying (i think) that God made everything from nothing. But its not God but us who changed the 'nothing' to 'everything'. -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing.
Its not nothing, its No- THINGS. There is only consciousness, GOD. Te energy/matter of all things is at a state of REST. reation is the differntation of the energy/matter at rest into motion and forms.
God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing?
Not the absence of energy/matter, but the unformed, at rest , state of enegy matter, so there are no OBJECTS to percieve. No THINGS.
we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
Pure consciousness