Every kind of similitude....
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Neither was your post on the other thread anything to do with you.
Huh??? How can a post of mine have nothing to do with me ???
No wonder he was banned once for his unreasonable/unquranic behaviour.
By the way, just in case you don?t know
THAT`S what?s called an ad hominem attack.You do the same but don't forget to translate 930 in its entirety as requested on the other thread. It's about time I get some answers outa ya guys instead of dodging around.
Wow, you edit and change your posts faster than I can answer them. Impressive!
Peace, peace, peace. I?m gone.
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Neither was your post on the other thread anything to do with you.
Huh??? How can a post of mine have nothing to do with me ???
Huh??? Same here.???
No wonder he was banned once for his unreasonable/unquranic behaviour.
By the way, just in case you don?t know
THAT`S what?s called an ad hominem attack.Facts, not ad hominem. Can't take the truth? Talk about defending, supporting and venerating mquran!!!
You do the same but don't forget to translate 930 in its entirety as requested on the other thread. It's about time I get some answers outa ya guys instead of dodging around.
Wow, you edit and change your posts faster than I can answer them. Impressive!Yes, impressive and quite effective.
Peace, peace, peace. I?m gone.
Peace, thank GOD.
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Every culture and every timeperiod, of course, thinks that "they finally got it", that they are "the most evolved" and "the most progressive". Every culture and every timeperiod is horribly vain when it comes to this. But of course this vanity is not objective in any way.
Fukuyama is the latest exponent of 'endism' and he himself was deconstructed by Derrida. (read derrida and the end of history). I personally think that 'endism' is simply the propagation of one's agenda. Mankind should alway be wary of the future and not speak of which they have no knowledge.
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salam.
salam .
so according to u the Quran only consists of simultudes ? there are no literal verses ?37 He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
this verse has nothing to do with simultudes(mathalin) . this is about muhkam and mutashabey verses . both muhkam and mutashabey can contain simultudes .
It's all literal and all true; but it's not necessarily physical, but rather figurative.
based on what criteria ? just because you dont understand how Noah could live 950 years , makes that verse symbolic ?
People make the mistake of believing that allegory makes something falsehood.
many people make the verses symbolic because they think that what the verse says is non-sense and cannot happen(like in Noah's case) . so they do consider it falsehood . this is their criteria for deciding which verses are symbolic .
So rather than trying to determine what is literal and what is symbolic we must only consider what is straightforward and firm and all the remainder must be similar or allegorical verses based on 37.
what 37 says is tells is that we must not pursue the mutashabey verses to cause confusion . it also says that whether the verse is muhkam or mutashabey , we must believe in it . so regarding the story of Noah , i believe in it . all of them come from God . it must be true . he certainly would have lived 950 years .
This does not diminish the message. How does it affect anyone alive today to be told a story about a man named Noah living for 950 years?
it is part of the message . why else did God willed to tell us that Noah lived 950 years ?
If you believe it is a piece of history telling then you are turning the reading into an 'ancient tale' whereas the reading is a living message.
Quran does narrate to us information of the unseen . the stories of the prophets are also information of the unseen . and according the Quran we must believe in the unseen .
salam truth .
do u agree? if no , why ? -
Peace,
If you believe it is a piece of history telling then you are turning the reading into an 'ancient tale' whereas the reading is a living message.
Quran does narrate to us information of the unseen . the stories of the prophets are also information of the unseen . and according the Quran we must believe in the unseen .
I posted in relation to the unseen shortly after this thread...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4694
The unseen to me is literally that. No person alive today has seen any of it - and therefore if it is simply an 'ancient tale' then its point is missed.
If the God has legitimised the use of similitude and figurative language then can you not acknowledge that these 'events' may be relayed in the way they are to explain to us messages which are not just ancient tales but are lessons applicable to you and me?
The argument is not against the underlying historicity of the accounts in the reading; the argument is that the way the events are told is figurative/symbolic and not physical.
That the God's throne or hands are figurative and not physical. That they stand for other things. And similarly that in the events told to us there are lessons for us - both superficial and deep.
Regards.
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salam
The unseen to me is literally that. No person alive today has seen any of it - and therefore if it is simply an 'ancient tale' then its point is missed.
If the God has legitimised the use of similitude and figurative language then can you not acknowledge that these 'events' may be relayed in the way they are to explain to us messages which are not just ancient tales but are lessons applicable to you and me?
every part of every event does not need to be 'applicable' to us . maybe i dont understand , how do u want them to be applicable ?
take for example the 'parting of the sea' event . the lesson that can be learnt,without making it symbolic, is about God's power and how He can help His servants in need .
why does it need to be symbolic ?
salam.
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salam
every part of every event does not need to be 'applicable' to us . maybe i dont understand , how do u want them to be applicable ?
take for example the 'parting of the sea' event . the lesson that can be learnt,without making it symbolic, is about God's power and how He can help His servants in need .
why does it need to be symbolic ?
salam.
So you can see the underlying message regardless. The message is literal but the event is figurative - it is not possible physically and we know that. Our experience of the world as well as physical laws make such an event impossible.
There are some who try to explain the event as a tsunami with a withdrawal of water, or a tidal motion etc. All these attempts to reconcile the event with observable events are acknowledgements of the impossibility of this event as imagined in the popular mindset.
Regards.
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salam.
So you can see the underlying message regardless. The message is literal but the event is figurative - it is not possible physically and we know that.
see , this is the problem . the lessons can be learned from the literal understanding too . but the only reason u r calling the event symbolic , is because u say "it is not possible physically and we know that."
we are not the knower of everything , God is . when the All-Knower is informing us about some extraordinary event , then we know that it is possible .
Our experience of the world as well as physical laws make such an event impossible.
again our experiences in the world are very limited , and does not compare to God's experience . there are things beyond our experiences ,right ? and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
the problem is that those who support the symbolic understanding think that there is nothing that is beyond there knowledge and experience . that is the only reason for calling these verses symbolic .
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Peace Saladin,
and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
Gravitation. To create a wall of water would require water being held against gravity.
Imagine a dam of water; and suddenly the dam wall is lowered - will it stay in its place as a stationary wall or will it flow obeying the pull of gravity?
Try it with a glass of water with your hand over the top. Lie the glass on its side and remove your hand in the hope it might stay in the glass.
Say someone in the past experienced such a thing and believed in the God because of it. Does that confer an advantage upon that person over you?
Say they saw many instances of it - so that they saw a man's stick turn to snake, then struck against the ground to make springs gush out of the ground, then struck against the sea to create a partition - does that person who experienced such events have an advantage over you?
If the answer is yes, then you must realise that it must be figurative. The God is fair and just. Every person who has ever lived has an equal chance to believe - and extraordinary events which people demanded from prophets and messengers never happened physically. No one gets an unfair advantage in a just system.
Regards.
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salam.
Peace Saladin,
and which physical laws make such an event impossble ? tell us please .
Gravitation. To create a wall of water would require water being held against gravity.
yes , someone was holding sea apart against gravity
250 And We parted the sea for you,...
no law is broken here .
Try it with a glass of water with your hand over the top. Lie the glass on its side and remove your hand in the hope it might stay in the glass.
again ,you are comparing ourselves with God . our experiences are limited . our powers are limited . God can do better than us . right ?
Say someone in the past experienced such a thing and believed in the God because of it. Does that confer an advantage upon that person over you?
Say they saw many instances of it - so that they saw a man's stick turn to snake, then struck against the ground to make springs gush out of the ground, then struck against the sea to create a partition - does that person who experienced such events have an advantage over you?
If the answer is yes, then you must realise that it must be figurative. The God is fair and just.if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Every person who has ever lived has an equal chance to believe - and extraordinary events which people demanded from prophets and messengers never happened physically. No one gets an unfair advantage in a just system.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!) -
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
The reading even challenges people that if it were from any other than the God then it would contain contradictions. To me, an event described which I cannot verify in physical reality is a contradiction and requires an explanation. The explanation for the events in this case must be that they are figurative, otherwise your ability to verify is zero.
Regards.
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salam truth.
Peace,
if i m born poor , and you are born rich , does that mean that God is being unfair ? no. accoring to the Koran, God can favour one more than the other .
Material wealth is not a criterion of attaining the goal.
ok . put aside material wealth .
247 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other .
and by the way we have greater signs in the Koran ,than the ones that previous generations recieved . so it is not unfair .
the sea was not parted to increase people's chances to believe , but so Musa could get across .
Unlike money, who has more or less of it is not the same as inequality in experiencing things like sticks turning to snakes. The purpose of that was to get across a message so to speak, and not practical as you suppose for the parting sea.
huh?! the verse does not indicate any such thing .
how did the parting of the sea increased Pharaoh's chances to believe ? what did Pharaoh do after seeing what God is capable of ? what did he do ? (he followed them into the sea!)
how did it increase the belief of bani israel . what did they do after being delivered in such an extrordinary way . (they started worshipping a calf!)If these events were physical then perhaps they could have been expected to have more impact. The failure to change the people gives you an extra hint that the descriptions are figurative.
no . the failure to change the people gives hints about people's mentality .
It opens a new discussion on human nature to discuss how people are affected by witnessing such things.
see how most people choose to disbelieve in the glorious Koran . that is how most people are affected by witnessing such things . they still disbelieve in teh signs of God . that is what happened before like when sticks turned into snakes .
Anyhow you obviously want to continue to see the language as literal and physical despite the God urging you to verify all information you receive.
we verify extra koranic information by using the Koran as a criterion . but the information in the Koran itself is coming from the All-Knower . there is no further need to verify it .
this is my last post on this topic . maybe .
salam )
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Peace
I just wanted to point out that the Quran has to be verified. Every fact, and every command based on facts in the quran is verifiable.
But strangely, most "miracles" and the "historical" stories offer no evidence that they actually happened. Why? because the quran doesn't claim that those events are real and physical.
Putting great importance on verification and at the same time giving us stories without evidence seems contradictory. And it is. But the quran doesn't do that.
What it comes down to in the end is that we can never know if those events actually happened or not (we can safely assume that the ones with the supernatural miracles in it didn't). We can't defend something we have no knowledge of. So instead of trying to prove that the stories are real, we must look into them for meaning and guidance. The quran's not a history book. -
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
By the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos." Its written in very easy to understand language, yet explains so much of science, physics and the world?with some humour here and there thrown in for good measure. I haven't even finished this book myself yet, but the more I read the more insight I feel I have into the Quran!
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Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
I agree. Those are the real miracles that most people fail to see.
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'And i will definately check that book out. sounds good.
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Peace Nazz,
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence?
Exactly bro. And there are miracles all around us.
~Stem cells are miraculous in their own right - identical, yet one becomes a heart cell and it's neighbor a fingernail cell.
~Bacteria that lie dormant for millions of years, yet come to life after being thawed out <---miraculous
~Water = tasteless yet delicious, soft, yet impossible to compress
~Manure=waste, yet, manure=fertilizer shockBy the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Briane Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos."
Thanks for the reference. I really enjoyed watching "The Elegant Universe". For those who are interested and haven't seen it, it's a must...
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.htmlPeace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'
The Key to ife is the "NOTHINGNESS" you are denying (so far).
No-Things only means that Energy/Matter is UNFORMED, like the potters clay. When there is no Differntiation, then there are no FORMS, no OBJECTS to observe, therefore no THINGS.
Everything moves from the ONE UNFORMED, to the many forms. The ONE UNFORMED is the ESSENCE of all FORMS. It is the NOTHINGNESS where we are all connected.
That state of "no things" is what we call PEACE. Energy is at rest. Hiduism calls it NIRVANA (Nir=not Vana=moving). Kamit calls it AMEN, the state of Hetep(peace).
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Peace,
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth. And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion. More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis. They have just come to a different conclusion, or more appropriately many different conclusions. The arguments that they are making as to the myriad of nuances of the Qur?an have been made before.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed. This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
Cheers,
Tim