gay people and islam
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Peace be upon you Peaceful Muslim,
idolfree1 wrote
The sexual act is done until orgasm, the purpose of male semen coming out is to be connected with an egg, therefore the human with a penis and the human with a vagina are DESIGNED to go together.
Homo SEX uality is incorrect based on OBSERVABLE PROOF in relationship to its design.I would completely agree with ur explanation(and so would everyone else) if the intention behind the sexual act was conception. But at times, when thats not the case, ur logic fails coz anybody who indulges in sex(without the intent of conception) makes sure the sperm and the ovum dont get together.
Yes, and thats why birth control pills cause so much havoc as well as condoms. Your only foundation of response is based on using the "tools" for somethnig OTHER THAN thier purpose. When PURPOSE is brought into the conversation, the case is closed, there is no other PURPOSE for the semen that comes out of a penis except to be matched with an egg inside of a WOMAN.
idolfree1 wrote
Do you agree or not regarding the sex act in relationship to the design?yes but for fulfilling the primary purpose(conception in this case). Not necessarily if the intention is not to fulfill the primary purpose.
Any other purpose besides the primary purpose should be a simulation of the primary purpose. We are suppossed to be transcending animal passions, not letting them lead us to perverse nature. Homosexuality is the product of sexual excess, when in fact we are suppossed to be very moderate in that field. Chaste.
idolfree1 wrote
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We can only get concerned if the act harms those involved or others. Does it?It does involve others. You have to be blind not to understand in this day and age the power of media propoganda. People are "trying" homosexuality all over the place, which is evidence of the MENTAL DISORDER that this really is.
Truth is People are trying all kinds of sex......casual sex, swinging, group sex, violent sex, forced sex(rape) etc.....Now would u say heterosexualty(which is the reason behind these acts) as such is sinful or is it that these specific acts are sinful?
All of that is PERVERSE, and Homosexuality is part of all that.
idolfree1 wrote
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O well, u might say the action itself is sinful no matter how normal or natural its for them.Natural? Whats natural about using a penis in the incorrect manner DESIGNED? If you are going against DESIGN, how can that be natural? Thats a misude of the word.
I meant normal/natural from an hormonal/emotional/spiritual perspective.
Hormonal? If a human has a penis, its because the hormones(messengers) delivered the mesasage that the cells in that body should form a penis. Same with a female. So your response about hormonal is incorrect.
And also its a misunderstanding that only homos participate in anal sex.
What did I say above about anal sex? It is wrong for ANYONE to do.
How will u even know if hetros indulge in anal sex in the privacy of their rooms? And even if they do, Why exactly are we to be concerned?
Because when you see yourself as part of a WHOLE, then you become concerned about all the parts. I am not implying compulsion, just proper education. You are concerned about education right?
idolfree1 wrote
Sure, but all of life is based on the concept of yin and yang. The God created all things in pairs. Imagine the day with no night, or the cold without heat. How could one find balance without the duality of life? In order to obtain the OBJECTIVE PROOF of a relationship so we can get to TRUTH, we must bring this to the physical world. Which brings us to the relationship of penis and vagina, which is clear.U r mixing 2 different spheres here. one is the physical aspect and the other is the spiritual/emotional aspect. Penis and Vagina are mere physical aspects. I bet u realise, there is more to a man than his penis and more to a woman than her vagina. That is what makes the yin-yang.
I will wait until you do more study of the terms yin and yang, because it is obvious from your responsethat you have not done much study of this topic.
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Yeah, God created all things in pairs.......The same God created hermaphroditesIdolfree1
Thats a genetic disorder by way of VISUAL, OBJECTIVE ABNORMALITY. Hardly comparable.Are u saying that every aberration should be physical to be true?
I am sayin that there are people who are straight, have children and everything, THEN TURN HOMOSEXUAL. People dont TURN into hermaphrodites, nor do hermaphrodites turn back into the natural form (except through surgery)
idolfree1 wrote
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.......... The same God created Homosexuals. So, Now what shall we do?Following your reasoning by way of no objective proof, we have to say the God created murderers, thieves, child molesters, etc. SHould we make rights for them and make sure all TV shows have a representative of thier group and a lobby group, etc?
Hmm, not a very objective'logical statement here . Like I said earlier homosexuality can only concern us if inspite of being biological for some, its harmful to those involved or others. Is it? If yes, how? If no or not really, u already have ur answer.
"Biological" is a guess, at least admit to that so I know this is not a usless debate. Yes, homosexuality is harmful because it is the option of DEATH TO THE HUMAN RACE. It does not produce offspring. What an abomination that NONE before THEM have done. You know how I know none before THEM have done it? Because they are here to prove it. If thier ancestors were homosexual, they would not be here, just as none of us would be here.
Like I said earlier yin yang is not about penis and vagina. It goes beyond physical body parts.
Here's a question. Does a man approach a woman only becoz she has a socket? Is a 'man' attracted to a 'woman'? Or is the 'plug' attracted to the 'socket'?No, there is attraction on all levels. While we are talking about attraction, please explain the yin and yang of magnets. What happens when you put the positive with negative? Now try positive with positive, what happens?
idolfree1 wrote
If you can figure out what to do with your door key when you get home, the you should be able to figure this out.If the intention is to open the door(which is the main pupose of a key), yes, the key would have to go into the lock and turned. But not necessarily so if the door doesnt need to be opened.
Whats another purpose for it?
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Hi idolfree1,
You are comparing skin color to human choices/actions.
I suppose this is where the difference in understanding lies. U see homosexuality as a human choice.
I am opposed to the idea of homosexuality as a choice as well just as I am opposed to the idea of casual sex, swinging, violent sex, group sex etc
But in whom homosexuality may be biological(these people loathe the idea of being with the opposite sex and are only attracted to members of same sex), We cant do much about it than accept the reality, I guess.Peace!
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
It's in our nature to do what we enjoy and many people enjoy what is harmful to their health.
Your nature is PEACE, unless you identify with the NAFS that you were supposed to be in charge of. You must realize that there are two parts of you, a part that WILLS and a part that CARRIES OUT. The part that CARRIES OUT is teh EMOTIONAL/ENERGETIC part of you, that part that WILLS is the NON EMOTIONAL/NON ENERGETIC part, the part that is FREE, the part that is AT PEACE.
When you say its our "NATURE" , yuo have to realize yuo are talking about what is NATURAL. Smoking cigarettes is NATURAL? How do you reason?
how can someone be conditioned to get a hard on from someone?
I guess you will have to study and reflect more to see how. I certainly dont want you to blindly believe what I am saying, I want you to verify it. I hope that you will get that SEED from this discussion that will be nourished by TRUE LIFE.
that is way too clockwork orange. I guess this is why the world has had such success in REconditioning rapists and peodophiles?
There is no success because "they" dont understand the spirit"nafs" and how it works, much less that it is NOT WHO THEY ARE. Locking someone up behind bars where they rape and molest is HARDLY the proper method to condition someone not to rape and molest, wont you agree?
If it was as easy as TV don't ya think it would have worked there? You cannot blame TV for demoralising the world, blame the structure of society and the breakdown of the extended family, which happened BEOFRE TV.
First of all, TV is one of MANY means, I only used that as an example because it is so powerful and common to us all. Second, where do you see TV being used as a means to help promote rigteous behavior?
As for christians, thier need to worship cjhrist is EXACTLY the same as a muslims is to worship the koran and mohomad (ya ya ya i know they don't worship mohomad, but they will attack others for poking fun at this "non idol" person of extreme high regard)
I agree 100%, my point stands.
Humans are also predisposed to hunting and gathering, but when that was taken away, a ot of problems started.
O yeah, what about the cultures that used agriculture as oppossed to relying on hunting and gathering?
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Peace be upon you,
You see i cannot debate with someone who is completely ruled by something else.
That would be observable LAW.
Fine, homosexuality is perverted
Correct, just one of MANY perversions in the world.
anyone who does it will go to hell in a handbasket
One who manifests those actons is alread in the fire in respects to that action. Being controlled by LUST is to be in Hell.
and the whole world should reject any human who entertains the thought
The whole world should reject the perverse act, not the human being. We should want for our brothers and sisters what we want for ourselves. I CERTAINLY would want someone to correct me and show me the TRUTH about what I am doing that is wrong.
even if it leads to teaching hatred and fear to children.
There is nothing in my approach that would teach children hatred and fear. In fact, my position is to teach humans to TRANSCEND EMOTIONS, such as LUST. Hate and Fear are also emotions that must be transcended, so there should be no reason for you to worry about the children. If you were really worried about children you would prevent them from seeing such perverse images.
You win
Not me, God's Universal LAW.
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They all STARTED as hunter gatherer's/ When becoming sedintary, they developed the classic social disorders that go along with it
When i mentioned the rapists and such i was referring to the RECONDITIONING treatments tried, not prison. They fail. If people an be MADE to become homosexual, then why can they not be MADE NOT to be rapists?
what is a "nafs"?
I didn't say "smoking" was natural, what I said was natural, is doing what we enjoy and at times that entails things that are bad for the body.
As for TV being used to promote riteous behaviour, that is actually all over the set over the last few years, at least in the US. there has been a major call on dramas put out to encourage humans to see and correct certain faults and to encourage tolerance, inner understanding and peaceful, understood ways. Just open your eyes.
Plus there is the 700 club (despirte the fact that it is a christian thing, it still promotes many of the same behaviours and choices promoted by islam)
Does this work either? I doubt it. TV is entertainment. Choices are influenced far more by the home, neighborhood, comunity and experience.
As for homosexuality, I don't think that is a choice, you are or you are not. People may at times experiment to find out for sure, but it still comes down to what floats your boat. denying what you are is as much a sin as faking who you are
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Peace be upon you Peaceful Muslim,
idolfree1 wrote
You are comparing skin color to human choices/actions.I suppose this is where the difference in understanding lies. U see homosexuality as a human choice.
I am opposed to the idea of homosexuality as a choice as well just as I am opposed to the idea of casual sex, swinging, violent sex, group sex etc
But in whom homosexuality may be biological(these people loathe the idea of being with the opposite sex and are only attracted to members of same sex), We cant do much about it than accept the reality, I guess.Yes, this is where we differ, but lets look at some evidence. A person is born with brown skin, there is no doubt to this being biological. However, all homosexuals are not born homosexual. It is a fact that there are many homosexuals who havechildren, but later TURN homosexual. Are you stating that is biological but just took some time to come out?
I respect your opinion if you say yes, but I see that as a weak excuse to allow a perverse behavior.
And again, I feel the need to explain, its not about attacking any group of humans,its about promoting correct NATURAL behavior.
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Peace
God clearly determines that the pairs/zawj are male/female.
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.
The pair described here are the male and the female sexes of the species of mankind. From these mates are scattered forth other males and females. Homosexuals males and females cannot do such a thing. There are even some straight people who cannot but I do not feel it is an argument that because of this infertility that it is okay for the female to come to the female and the male to the male.
I also think one should study the marriage according to the reading and see if same-sex couples fit into the procedure.
Joe
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth?
They all STARTED as hunter gatherer's/ When becoming sedintary, they developed the classic social disorders that go along with it
Who is the THEY you are talking about? I am not even following where this part of the discussion is going. It seems you are saying that vegetarians are not natural, that everyone started out hunting animals.
When i mentioned the rapists and such i was referring to the RECONDITIONING treatments tried, not prison. They fail. If people an be MADE to become homosexual, then why can they not be MADE NOT to be rapists?
They can, if they can be taught to transced the emotional enslavement. But most in the world are oblivious to such concepts.
what is a "nafs"?
Your spirit/mind which you are responsible for. You can metaphorize it as the SOIL of your garden that you must plant the proper seeds into so that you REAP the right actions.
I didn't say "smoking" was natural, what I said was natural, is doing what we enjoy and at times that entails things that are bad for the body.
If you are led by EMOTIONS (what you enjoy at that moment), then you are in hell. Get BEHIND me Satan, is what the wise man said! The Emotions must FOLOW, not lead. DO you realize that those who smoke ENJOY smoking? Are you saying it is NATURAL to follow that "enjoyment"? It is NEVER natural to smoke, even if you "enjoy" it. Do you realize that what you "enjoy" is a CONDITION succeptible to CHANGE?
As for TV being used to promote riteous behaviour, that is actually all over the set over the last few years, at least in the US. there has been a major call on dramas put out to encourage humans to see and correct certain faults and to encourage tolerance, inner understanding and peaceful, understood ways. Just open your eyes.
My eyes are wide open, the ones outside and inside. TV promotes EMOTIONALIY, which is the real Devil. If you think I am the one who is blind, then lets start listing shows and will prove to you what I am saying.
Plus there is the 700 club (despirte the fact that it is a christian thing, it still promotes many of the same behaviours and choices promoted by islam)
lol Are you serious? A show that says that Ariel Sharons illness was because he is living in a land that is not his? (or whatever foolishness he said) That is the same show you are talking about?
Does this work either? I doubt it.
I agree! lol You have not names one righteous show. You have only repeated SLOGANS, just like tobacco companies who give you the SLOGANS about cigarrettes being bad for your health but at the same time spending billions in advertising, etc.
TV is entertainment. Choices are influenced far more by the home, neighborhood, comunity and experience.
Sure, thats why its called a Television PROGRAM ?
I agree, it is CULTURE that produces the effects, but you have to realize that TV is a big part of culture.
As for homosexuality, I don't think that is a choice, you are or you are not. People may at times experiment to find out for sure, but it still comes down to what floats your boat. denying what you are is as much a sin as faking who you are
Experiment to find out? What will tell them through the experimentation process that they are homosexual or not? Some EMOTION? shock
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peace idolfree, everybody
there's just one thing that hits me in your position, sorry if it may be a bit out of the subject - even though mentioned above.
You state that the sole purpose of penis and vagina "sockets" is to produce life and this should mean that once we have the amount of kids we 'decided' to have we should stop having sexual relations with our spouses cause we're supposed to be chaste... roll
So in a way, a couple that doesn't manage to produce these kids has at least the pleasure of continuing their activities - kind of a consolation prize lol
No really, i believe that we also have a right to enjoy the good things of life as long as it's not to the detriment of others. And tell me what is more beautiful than a loving physical relation ?
elke
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Peace be upon you,
To those who favor homsexuality-
Is it okay for humans to have sex with animals? Even if they "love" thier animals? Perhaps that falls under one of the NON PRIMARY uses of "plugs and sockets". Someone please advise me.
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Peace be upon you,
To those who favor homsexuality-
Is it okay for humans to have sex with animals? Even if they "love" thier animals? Perhaps that falls under one of the NON PRIMARY uses of "plugs and sockets". Someone please advise me.
yup that's right, sounds good to me
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U see homosexuality as a human choice.
I am opposed to the idea of homosexuality as a choice as well just as I am opposed to the idea of casual sex, swinging, violent sex, group sex etc
I understood about you being opposed to the idea of homosexuality being a choice (even though I'm not in agreement), but I didn't quite understand the comparisons that followed after. ? Are you saying those aren't choices (like homosexuality)?Peace
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The idea thrown around here seems to be that if one is opposed to homosexuality, automatically means that the individual is FOR punishment/exile/stoning of the homosexuals. If I'm not mistaken, there's only one person (maybe two) who agree with this idea at all.
Can one say they're against something, as Kyle pointed out numerous times, and speak up against it, without the follow-up of violence? idea
Peace
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Peace be upon you Elke,
there's just one thing that hits me in your position, sorry if it may be a bit out of the subject - even though mentioned above.
No problem, lets hear it D
You state that the sole purpose of penis and vagina "sockets" is to produce life
No, we also use them to get rid of waste matter. The purpose of the SEXUAL ACT is to produce life.
and this should mean that once we have the amount of kids we 'decided' to have we should stop having sexual relations with our spouses cause we're supposed to be chaste...
By chaste I mean refrainig from excess, not virginity or celibacy. Sister Elena also asked me a similar question to which I truthfully can not answer at this time. There is the position that there are other aspects of the sexual act between man and women that we should understand. It deals with sexual energy and other metaphysical topics that I am not learned in at this time.
But in any case, the goal of sex is orgasm, is it not? What happens when a human reaches orgasm? What is the purpose of that automatic reaction?
So in a way, a couple that doesn't manage to produce these kids has at least the pleasure of continuing their activities - kind of a consolation prize
I will agree at this point until I learn more, and that is based on my emotional conditioning towards sex, which TV and magazines watse no efforts on reinforcing. D However, it would make more sense and would be more responsible t emulate the TRUE form, without being EXCESSIVE, rather than go to the extreme just for the emotion of LUST.
No really, i believe that we also have a right to enjoy the good things of life as long as it's not to the detriment of others. And tell me what is more beautiful than a loving physical relation ?
Peace is the most beautiful thing there is, far superior to sexual pleasure.
If a man likes having sex with farm animals, and "feels" justified in his perversion, even if it is by himself on a farm, should we not be concerned? Dont we want for all what we want for ourselves? We have to develop more ONENESS, there is too much disconnection in this topic, too much "over there" talk, instead of ONENESS talk. Mankind is ONE COMMUNITY, seperation is the devils tool.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
idolfree1 wrote
To those who favor homsexuality-
a moment,
I don't favour anything, I am standing up agaisnt intolerance like that 'exile' ideas stated in this same thread.Then I was not addressing this post to you D
Tolerance- sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
However, in regards to tolerance, should we be tolerant of people having sex with farm animals?
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The idea thrown around here seems to be that if one is opposed to homosexuality, automatically means that the individual is FOR punishment/exile/stoning of the homosexuals. If I'm not mistaken, there's only one person (maybe two) who agree with this idea at all.
Can one say they're against something, as Kyle pointed out numerous times, and speak up against it, without the follow-up of violence? idea
Peace
it is difficult to make the two things fit. I mean, every time that the word 'perversion' is used here or when equating homosexuality with children molestation I find those expressions denigrating for the homosexual people who don't commit children molestation, abuse, or any other crime. It is not direct violence but I find it intolerant, as much time it is repeated 'we are not against the person'
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
To those who favor homsexuality-
Is it okay for humans to have sex with animals? Even if they "love" thier animals? Perhaps that falls under one of the NON PRIMARY uses of "plugs and sockets". Someone please advise me.
yup that's right, sounds good to me
You see, when you allow the emotions to lead, there is no end to the perversion of both thought and act.
Thank you for your honesty at least, hopefully it will make the seriousness of this topic clear to others.
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idolfree.... When in adoleselce, SOME people find themselves confused over what they are feeling in regards to others. Some may find that they are atracted to an individual and feel that they are either one way or another sexually and look into those feelings. Some find out they are homosexuals, some find out they were confusing their emotions. THAT is experimentation. Emtions are not always easy to figure out, but sexual atraction coes down to how a body reacts. it DOES or it DOESN'T
and YES that goes for both genders. Sometimes the IDEA of a taboo can be a turn on while the reality proves to be a complete turnoff, but you don't know until you put it to the test SOMETIMES