gay people and islam
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Peace nabi and all. I believe the quran can be a 'tool' or 'kickstart' to help rational thinking,but it is not the only tool nor is it 'absolute'.(nor absolutely essential) It is not the last word on everything nor is it infallible. (there are numerous horrendous deeds that have been done in the name of the quran and/or god) The quran can be used for good or for bad.(depending on the individual and circumstances). If the quran is infallible,what is the point in veryfying it? Has anyone ever been convinced on a certain interpretation of a verse(that this is what god meant),only to change their mind about the meaning of that verse a few months later?(eg salat,fasting,the sunnah etc..) This is why we try to be careful to be open-minded(not dogmatic)as new knowledge/understandings can refute our previous 'knowledge'.
Peace all. -
Peace Enquirer
And nabi,your post to me last night was very patronising to me and new members.
Take it as you will.
I only pointed out that there are members, new ones, who tend to debate issues of islam without a referrece to the reading and that the backbone of this forum lies on a quranic constitution/structure.
You seem to think that there is one methodology
I do not think so.
that we must be spoon-fed by you and the older members.
Your imagination is getting the best of you.
dont you think you could learn off other members as well?
Most certainly. I have never declared myself all-knowing or as the teacher of which I soley apply to God .
All this god-alone/quran-alone,come one you sound like the person calling himself a 'sunni' or 'shiah' or george bush
Okay. Your prerogative.
I dislike dividing humanity into non-muslim and muslim(saved and doomed) it can dehumanise us so that we think we are better than others or that they are inferiour.
It is what it is. There are muslimeen/those who surrender or the muttaqi/those who keep their duty, and there are kafireen/those who oppose or almufsid/the mischief-makers according to the reading . People are justifiably given the fruits of their works, in word and in deed. I believe your idea is somewhat naive, that the perverse should aquire the same stations of those who have labored with their lives and goods to achieve .
this is called racism
No, racism is a socio-economic system. Classic dictionaries have defined racism as looking out for one's own people , it being their only concern to the exclusion of others. Muslimeen look out for all and treat none badly.
We are all from the human race,if you feel you have knowledge to give or someone is 'astray' call him to good deeds by wisdom,respect and tolerance.
Yes this is clearly defined in the reading . I am firmly aware. Thank you for the reminder nevertheless.
Not with a patronising,superiority complex.
That's quite a joke. I'd be the last person exhibiting such qualities.
with this in mind why do some members prohibit pork?
It is their belief, just as you have the belief that people should not be divided as muslims and non-muslims.
To just say allah says so, is disregarding these verses.
Well it certainly depends on the context. People say that God says without any understanding whatsoever or knowledge thereof .
What if the verses you regard as prohibiting homosexuality are not referring to consentual sexuality,but forced actions.
Yes I clearly understand what you are saying which is why am trying to incorporate the full picture. Which is why I'm asking for you to show me that the institution of marriage applies to homosexuals in the reading.
Joe
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Peace nabi and all. The word zawj in arabic can mean partners,equal,counterpart. It can be two males,two females or a male and a female. Now apply this understanding to surah 30 verse 21. where it states ;' it is from allahs signs that he created zawj(partners,equals,counterparts) that you may live peacefully with them(obviously with consent) and he has put love and mercy between the partners,in this there is a sign for those who think deeply'. Now does this not apply to faithful,commited,homosexual relationships as well as hetrosexual ones too? By the way the arabic for nafs is feminine so does this mean that all creatures also have a feminine side too? Or that all men are feminine? Or that if we are created from a single nafs(surah 4;1)
then we are not created from adam(as he is male) but from a female.(adams partner?) If you delve deeper you are opening up a pandoras box of ideas.(which i hope you are strong enough to cope with-and i mean that sincerely joe). Pluralism and open-mindedness can lead to great new insights.
Peace all. -
Peace
The word zawj in arabic can mean partners,equal,counterpart. It can be two males,two females or a male and a female.
I said that already. Why the repetition, again I ask?
God clearly determines that the pairs/zawj are male/female.
Now apply this understanding to surah 30 verse 21.
Which one, same sex or differing sex?
Now does this not apply to faithful,commited,homosexual relationships as well as hetrosexual ones too?
Not when you apply it to the whole reading ]. It oft leads to problems when you isolate one verse which is part of a wider context.
By the way the arabic for nafs is feminine so does this mean that all creatures also have a feminine side too?
Yes nafs is indeed feminine. Duality permeats the universe.
Or that all men are feminine?
Are they?
Or that if we are created from a single nafs(surah 4;1)
Yes a single nafs which is feminine.
This has been discussed before. Try out the search function.
then we are not created from adam(as he is male) but from a female.
The nafs is not the body, bashar. Adam is the whole of mankind. Let's not go into that as of now since that is a wholly different topic.
If you delve deeper you are opening up a pandoras box of ideas.(which i hope you are strong enough to cope with-and i mean that sincerely joe).
You need not worry about if I'm willing to open Pandora's box.
Joe
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I did not intend to be mean in my post, I just become easily frustrated when discussing something that the other person does not seem to take the time to think about. For example, I pointed out that Angelina was considered attractive b/c of certain features that she has which indicate that she is fertile, this correlating beauty with fertility. Lotetree replied that he just thinks she's so beautiful. He doesn't bother to find the point, but prefers to go on about his business with some preconceived idea, so I find it pointless to continue this discussion with him. I think he did make a good point by linking to the "gay" rams...but then again, he didn't bother to defend that either. Once again, I am just frustrated with that approach, but I still think that this is a good debate we're having and I will do my part to keep the debate friendly. Apologies to all who may have been offended...
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Wow. I thought Kyle spoke with eloquence and patience on the subject.
What's with the backlash? ? Is anyone else allowed to have a different opinion?... or is that reserved for homosexuals only. roll
Talk about homophobia phobia! lol
Peace people, let's continue the discussion civilly... yes that goes for everyone, me included.
bro, anyone who agrees with you will seem eloquent, anyone who disagrees is marginalised as emotional or lashing out.
Demonizing a group of people without justification, is not having a different opinion but a crime.
Thats like me saying that all blacks are theivies, and then saying to anyone who opposes me "can't I have an opinion?"
At the end of day you've have interperted the quran according to your own understanding, which is what you hide behind when you call gays evil, immorral etc.
homosexulaity makes perfect sense to me in Gods' design. An example of his diversity and balance in creation.
I'm not gay and my mind and body completely rejects any inclination towards homosexuality, so I know niether me nor any other hetrosexual can be turned. It's not a matter of choice - God hard wired my sexual-identity from the day I was born, which is why I have no fear, they can't turn me or my children.
All prejudices are based on fear. People here need to do some soul searching and come to terms with their fears.
peace.
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Jonny k wrote
JK- "You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
ok it looks like case closed for the homosexuals on the documentary. However i bet they will be someone whom on the gay side will use the above as verse as for homosexuality because they will translate it differently.
just like salaat issue and many others are a matter of interpretation. Has any gay people already done this on the forum?
it will intereresting to read.peace D
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Hi Nabi,
I dont know how ur definition of Quran alone goes.
Back in middle of 2003 I stated
You understand the Quran alone in the wrong manner. Quran alone is just a statement that implies, 'No other book other than the Quran alone to guide us and instruct us in the system God has prescribed.' If you are in doubt to this ideology of taking the Scripture alone as a guidance to God's system than meet the challenge proposed in verses 2849-50.
I hope that clarifies.
Fair enough. I see ur view, though I wouldnt define it so.
Does that mean throwing understanding, reasoning, logic, thinking, analysing stuff & gaining knowledge to realise truth/reality into the drain?
No. Please show me how I may have implied this because I'd like to not do so in future discussion.
For one, Why would u object to the topic being discussed without Quranic reference? Thats where the implication was.
And if u did notice, this topic wasnt really about Quran and homosexuality but about homosexuality.
How are we to decide what is harmful to society?
Listen people, the backbone of this forum is the reading. People seem to be ignoring the reading as far as I can percieve of the situation. God has decided what is what in the reading.
No one is asking you to. This is a quranic forum. Understand?
We're discussing it according to the reading. The influx of new members is related to little use of the reading when it comes to discussiong the issues of the ummah.
This is where the implication was.
If the above is ur personal view, It doesnt matter but u appear to be speaking formally as a moderator here.
I understand its not my forum and if I am participating in one I should abide by the rules . So tell me, how does free-minds work? Only discussions on meaning of Quranic verses?And I moreover thought this is no seperate sect.... Now is this one?
Depends on your definition of sect and the context. I'd say no.
Peace Nabi, U appeared to be telling people what they should speak about and how they should........
And are u defining the norms of it?
No.
Thats good to know but there have been confusing messages.
If it is so, propably u should suggest to Layth to make it clear in the forum rules or so, that only words from Quran should be discussed for their meaning and nothing beyond.
Still misunderstanding me. I did not say that this forum is limited to the reading. I said it is the backbone of this forum. Please pay attention.
What exactly do u mean by backbone? Can there be discusion based on 'understanding, reasoning, logic, thinking, analysing, gaining knowledge to realise truth/reality 'on issues independent of what we think Quran says ? Or is that prohibited in this forum?
Please pay attention.
Ahem...ok, If u did Nabi, U would realise that there have been dicussions(though brief) on homosexuality and Quran in this thread itself and many of us here have exchanged our understanding.
And when u asked my view of Quran & homosexuality, I was about to explain when these posts of urs came on which really put me off.Peace Nabi........Anyways, The message I get from Quran is to think(rationally), reason, gain knowledge, ponder and so on.....The emphasis is on knowing the truth or seeking the truth...opening my eyes to truth......I think, Quran and Islam came at a time when there was much blind faith, blind irrational beliefs(which would make no sense to anyone only if they would think, see ) etc. Thats when and why I believe Quran came, where in God tells people to think.......to learn.........so that they can see the right from the wrong.
I am not sure, if u share my view on this one....and it doesnt matter.....but when I face God one day, I cant tell Him ''I believed so & so and did so & so becoz I ''blindly thought'' u told me so or others told me that this is what u told us to do. So I didnt bother to gain knowledge, to understand, reason etc....to know/seek the truth(which is from God too) ......or I believed so & so inspite of realising it's wrong becoz I blindly thought u told me so ...'' I know deep down, I cant get away with such explanations(not even from my own self, so definitely not from God) ......coz blind belief is not what God commanded.........and I know it. Thats why its important for me to understand stuff from & also out of Quran. I dont believe Quran is the only guidance from God. I believe all form of truth, wisdom, knowledge, goodness from any source is actually from God and God till date is guiding us in various ways. If we are fixed to a belief blindly, we are likely to miss the real truth and also His guidance. God's signs and also guidance can be seen all around us & also within us only if we saw.
These are just my views and beliefs. I dont expect u or anyone to share my view. But Since I need to justify my beliefs/actions to God one day, I would rather be plain honest & sincere to myself and Him.
Thus, I wouldnt really label myself as Quran alone(though I believe Quran is a message from God). I am a believer of God.
Hmm, I dont know why I foolishly poured out my heart here ops
Anyways, my point is...........let's cut the chase........if there is some fixed dictum of the forum(such as ''Quranic words only should be discussed'' or ''issues of ummah should be discussed only from Quran'' or even ''this is the interpretation of Quran that believers should follow'' etc).........please let us know clearly......... instead of Mixed messages which can be very confusing............Peace!
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Peace Enquirer,
Peace peaceful-muslim and all. Thank you peaceful-muslim for your post to nabi and your last post. I get a feeling of being patronised from some members(who happen to be moderators as well).
I know what u mean. I have felt the hostility, coldness too and it can send a confusing message especially if that person also happens to be a moderator. Coz we dont know if he is speaking as his own self or as a moderator.??
But anyways, lets not get bothered so much......trance
Life is all about peace and understanding. I guess we ought to remember everyone is human after all. >-I mean there is no clear-cut consensus on salat(which is fine by me) yet people talk about the quran as though god personally told them the interpretation.(and so they can stop reasoning,learning and questioning) and it is their duty to refute everybody elses views.
I agree. I have evidenced this in some. But at the same time, I should say I have also evidenced abundant wisdom and humility in some.
Not with a patronising,superiority complex.
I agree. I have felt it too. Nothing personal here, Nabi. Just being honest. Propably u dont mean it that way......but u come across so sometimes.....
I suggest some of you read some of your recent posts with an open mind and decide if you would like to be talked to the way you have talked to some other members.
I would suggest the same. We all need our 'reality-check' .
And to others, Sorry guys for going off topic.
Peace!
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Peace peaceful muslim and all. Thanks peacefulmuslim for your balanced,honest and mature,last two posts. Im glad ive found im not the only one that felt uncomfortable with certain things. Anyway no bad feelings or disrespect to anyone,all you guys are my brothers and sisters in humanity.
Peace and respect to all. -
Peace
And if u did notice, this topic wasnt really about Quran and homosexuality but about homosexuality.
The title of this thread is "gay people and islam" and the topic was originally about the stance of islam on homosexuality.
So tell me, how does free-minds work?
Please see the homepage at http//free-minds.org/
Hmm, I dont know why I foolishly poured out my heart here oops
I'd say you need to do some personal investigation as to why to did so.
Can there be discusion based on 'understanding, reasoning, logic, thinking, analysing, gaining knowledge to realise truth/reality 'on issues independent of what we think Quran says ?
Yes.
Joe
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Peace
Im glad ive found im not the only one that felt uncomfortable with certain things.
It was not my intent to be overbearing or to make anyone uncomfortable. There are some things, such as the personal feelings of others, which are not in my control. If anything I apologize for my being unclear.
Back to the topic now. Thanks.
Joe
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Peace,
Can there be discusion based on 'understanding, reasoning, logic, thinking, analysing, gaining knowledge to realise truth/reality 'on issues independent of what we think Quran says ?
A very practical, profound and legit question, peacefulmuslim. Many are found disturbingly narrow/close-minded and religiously orchestrated.
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Peace be upon you,
But homosexuality is observed in the Animal World. Why? We have no answer yet.
Sure we do. Lust, as with all emotions, are the ANIMAL NATURE within you. Emotion and ANIMATION are the same thing (energy in motion).
This is why humans are compared to animals in "Koran" when they are called "dumb as cattle" or like "apes and swine", or like "parrots" etc.
Animals lick each other butts and other kinds of behavior, we cannot take the animals as our guide to correct behavior.
That was a good one bro, thanks lol
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Peace be upon you,
The only problem here comes emotions leading your understanding. The process is to look objectively at an issue, look at form and function, then your emotion should follow that, not before that.
Anyway, lets take the most extreme example of this and see how it plays out
100% of people accept heterosexuality
100% of people accept homosexuality
Tell me the outcome of both.
I am not discussing how kind a person is, how much in "love" a person is, I am talking about he sex act.
if 100% accept homosexuality then then humanity will be extinct soon
peace
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Peace nabi and all. Is the reading the only way to morality? A person could make the reading fit whatever they wanted it to given the right circumstances,eg follow allah and the prophet meaning follow the sunnah.
I am finding this obsession for evidence from the quran similiar to 'we need hadith to understand islam'. What is the role of our minds,our experiences,our consciences? is this quran an idol?How do i know to put food in my mouth from the quran? Dont you think searching for everything in the quran(rather than some basic principles) is a little like blind following of a 1400 year old collection of facts?Where is the rocket science,tv,test-tube babies etc,etc. in the quran?(Explicitly not in obscure form)
Peace all.Peace mate
do you mind if I ask
are you a muslim, or just a quran reading hobbiest?
cheers
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I'm very impressed indeed
the homosexuals avtivist (Homo or not) are working really hard to spread evil
the day will come when you stand in front of Allah and I dare you say the BS you say now lol
peace to all
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Hi Nabi,
This is a quranic forum. Understand?
I thought this was 'God alone'' forum. Is it Quran alone?
Peace!
Peace sister
I applaude you for that note sister, now God alone said that homos will burn in Hell
thank you
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Peace nabi and all. The word zawj in arabic can mean partners,equal,counterpart. It can be two males,two females or a male and a female. Now apply this understanding to surah 30 verse 21. where it states ;' it is from allahs signs that he created zawj(partners,equals,counterparts) that you may live peacefully with them(obviously with consent) and he has put love and mercy between the partners,in this there is a sign for those who think deeply'. Now does this not apply to faithful,commited,homosexual relationships as well as hetrosexual ones too? By the way the arabic for nafs is feminine so does this mean that all creatures also have a feminine side too? Or that all men are feminine? Or that if we are created from a single nafs(surah 4;1)
then we are not created from adam(as he is male) but from a female.(adams partner?) If you delve deeper you are opening up a pandoras box of ideas.(which i hope you are strong enough to cope with-and i mean that sincerely joe). Pluralism and open-mindedness can lead to great new insights.
Peace all.Mate
what you say is a load of non sense and you are doing satan a great favour, good on you mate
Verse 4;1 clearly stated that He created one nafs, then created its pair, then from the two came many men and women
now if you can prove to me that a woman and woman can bring many men and women, or a man and man can bring many men and women, then you have a bloody point, other than that it is a case of severe manipulation by an ignornat, sorry
peace be with you