are you and me going to heaven?

topo

exactly, that was how abraham found god, by observing the nature and listening to the deepest of his heart and conscience.
he didn't have any knowledge of either scriptures or messengers.
the nature and universe, including our own beings, are signature of god. one who observes it will find his way to realization of the creator existence.

Elke

peace enquirer

Sorry not much time to spare

one could consider it either as one being, or as the one creation of the one god. i don't see the problem for free will here. It has been more than once discussed on the forum. IMO we have free will because if not there would be no basis for judgment, but still god, not being concerned by our time and space, already knows our decisions

lk

unknownuser

Peace Zenje,

If one doesn't believe in God at all, or believes in many gods, etc... then the deeds are for nought.

What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?

Peace!

nazz

"What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?"
Read the following; those who do the opposite are those destined for hell. (If you wanted sources other than the Quran for the "period of Quranic revelation", then maybe check out some Hadith? cry )

Successful indeed are the believers;who are reverent during their Contact Prayers (Salat).And they avoid vain talk.And they give their obligatory charity (Zakat).And they maintain their chastity.Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs, do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.When it comes to deposits entrusted to them, as well as any agreements they make, they are trustworthy.And they observe their Contact Prayers (Salat) regularly.Such are the inheritors.They will inherit Paradise, wherein they abide forever. 231?2312 ... See also 2177

unknownuser

Peace idol-free and all. I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?
Peace all.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Enquirer,

I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?

Everything is ONE. All of creation is different forms of the same "substance", we can see this by noting that all creation is made of electrons, protons, and nuetrons.

Also, CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE, the same consciousness in you is the same consciousness in me, just like the air we breath.

However, in the life of this world, we have to maintain the balance between ONENESS and the manifestation of "seperate" objects. We are ONE at the highest level and seperate at the lowest. Our position should be the balanced position(WUSTA), where we are "in the world, but not of the world".

When we come into the world, we are conditioned to see the seperation, so "Oneness" must be realized as we grow spiritually.

I dont know if I answered your request sufficiently, I honestly have not been following this discussion, I have just been sitting back reading different posts for the time being, just got to this thread and havent read all posts.

unknownuser

Peace peaceful-muslim and all. You bring up a very good point; 'What is the difference between, one who 'believes in god' and 'one who doesnt , is'?
Im not fully sure which view you take sister,but i take the view that there are;
a)people who are aware of general universal laws(truths)and try to live their lives according to this.(to maximise happiness of self and others,and reduce suffering).

b)people who are less aware of universal laws(either due to lack of knowledge or not appreciating/forgetting the consequences of harmful deeds.) and they live their lives in a way that can be harmful to theirselves and others.

However a) and b) are not actually real people,but states which we all get into at different stages in our lives.(without exceptions)

So i dont think any person is 100% 'believer' all the time or 100%'non-believer',but always fluctuating between the two. If there is anyone that has never made a mistake or done a bad deed then feel free to call yourself a 100% believer. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Also this definition of believer and non-believer i find divisive and arbitrary. I dont believe there is any such thing as a 100% non-believer,just people who are less aware,or leading lives which make more harm for themselves or/and society. To me belief means being aware,and i know of no human(or life-form )that is not aware. (even if aware in a small way). And shouldnt our job be to help people who are less aware to become more aware(and so happier and less harmful to themselves and their environment)in a loving,tolerant,peaceful,decent way?(whilst also working on maintaining/increasing our own awareness and benefit to self and society.)
Peace all.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Enquirer,

Very good post. I agree that the job is to AWAKEN (make aware).

Belief in the God is similar to belief in the messengers. Many say that we have to believe in "Muhammad, Musa, Ibrahim, etc" but we have no sure proof of them, we just have spiritual stories. Also, the God says in "Koran" that there are some that we were never told about, so the implication is that believing the MESSAGE is automatically making you a beleiver in ALL the messengers. Likewise, it makes us believers in the The God.

Also, that is in line with the oldest recorded "scripture" which is caled "Pert Em Hru" (Book of coming forth by day or Becoming awake).

Anyway, good post.

unknownuser

Peace idol-free and all. Thanks. Any quotes from this book you mention?Sounds very interesting.
Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure? Would it depend on a persons theoretical understanding(his beliefs) or his intent and deeds? How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds? Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them? Even people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them? I am asking questions,in the past i have seen very little response to these type of questions. Look forward to some replies.
Peace all.

zenje

Peace enquirer n all,

Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure?
One doesn't, only that person and God knows. ) The quranic definition is not mine.

How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds?
So do you believe in an "all-merciful god"?.. If not, then the question is moot. But you're right, for non-believers, they will believe on that day, and they will ask for "god's mercy", but their gods will be unable to reply.

Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them?
Yes. Only the GOD guides. The God Forgives. D

Even people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them?
Yes. Only the God guides. The God forgives. D Remember, the "description that some give is not in question here. Just because a calls be a sinner, doent mean b is.

I am asking questions,in the past i have seen little response to these questions.
Perhaps that's because you don't 'like' the answers you get? Maybe they don't 'suit' your idea of how things should be? idea It's all good

What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ?
one believes in God and one doesnt. )

)>-

nazz

I have stated before i am not a believer in the traditional idea of monotheism. (an all-powerful, all-knowing creator)
I've always found this kind of view puzzling to say the least. Particularly from a logical point of view;

idea If we humans (as well as other animals) have a brain and consequently knowledge, how would it be possible for the creator (whatever it may be) not to have similiar and superior faculties?

Also, the power to create something from nothing surely warrants the title "all-powerful", does it not?

unknownuser

Peace nazz and all. How can something be created out of nothing? I would like to see one logical,verified example of this. And if everthing needs a cause (or creator) then what about god? If you say god is 'uncreated',then why cant everthing else be uncreated?
Zenje; how does god guide,forgive,talk etc..? If its through human agency(or angels etc..) then god is in need of something to achieve his actions ,and so is not all-powerful.( not absolute or free of all needs as is often stated.)
psif god is creator,then he needs a creation for him to be a creator,hence again in need of other beings to fulfil his title.
Peace all.

nazz

Cheers enquirer,

How can something be created out of nothing? I would like to see one logical, verified example of this.
You are living a logical, self-verified example of this everyday. There logically must have been a beginning point to the universe. From what did the universe begin? Rocks, gases, molecules, atoms? Where did these begin? Add infinitum... until you come to a point whereby there is nothing. EXCEPT the concept of "god"?which by definition needs no beginning.

If you say god is 'uncreated',then why cant everthing else be uncreated?
"Everything else" can not be 'uncreated', because it is just that... "Everything Else" (other than God). And as we have seen, everything except God needs to be created. Perfect logic.

I know you directed the following to zenje, but I couldn't resist havin' a shot at them myself... please 'forgive' me... wink

Zenje; how does god guide,forgive,talk etc..? If its through human agency(or angels etc..) then god is in need of something to achieve his actions, and so is not all-powerful. (not absolute or free of all needs as is often stated.)
Your logic is flawed. Just because I can command my dog to retrieve a stick, doesn't mean I couldn't have actually walked to where the stick was and got it myself. In like manner, it is not that God needs anything to aid Him, but rather He enjoys the 'benefits' that His station allow Him?the command of subordinates to do His bidding.

if god is creator,then he needs a creation for him to be a creator,hence again in need of other beings to fulfil his title.
Not at all. God could very well have chosen to have created nothing?leaving only His presence in a perfect void?Moreover, God is far above having a single and exclusive title such as mere "creator". He could be anything?not even a "creator", if He so desired.

Peace

Peace be unto you Nazz,
How could God have chosen to create nothing if he is all knowing?
Being All knowing implies that God must know beforehand all of his actions, and therefore, he had no choice in creating everything. If he decided not to create anything, he wouldn't be All knowing. Thus, if God knows every action he is going to do ahead of time, he has no free will to act against that knowledge.

Sorry if its a little confusing,
Peace

unknownuser

Salaam peace. I have stated this similiar point before.This concept of all-knowing god, means god has no free-will.
Nazz,your points are circular(relying on concept of god to prove god).
Also if you said god has the power to not be creator,how do you know he hasnt limited or delegated his power?
ps quote;' god enjoys the benefits that his station allows him-the command of sub-ordinates to do his bidding? shock (does that include satan?) Any responsibility or free-will for the human?
Peace all.

Someone

Peace be upon all,

I would like to jump in to make some observations/questions

1- Is anyone capable of creating complete nothigness, void of anything? Besides the god the creator, I don't think anybody can.

2- The god IS. The god exists, unlike any other thing that exists. Everything degrades with time; everything is created, and everything has limits, even time.

3- The god is, unchanging, constant. He is. I believe that to create something that is changing, from his point of view, he would have to create nothingness. This concept is like when you have some very hot iron (full of energy), you need something cold (with less energy) to create a difference of potential and thus have a flow of energy, from hot to cold.
In the same manner, since the god is (only him exists for real, everything else is ephemera), nothingness had to be created to allow "the creation" to exist, and thus having a flow of energy.

I hope I am making sense.

4- The theory saying that everything is created from nothing is "half true". It is more accurate to say that everything is created through a singularity which is "nothingness" created by the god the creator the ever-existing.

5- Through nothingness, and with a fixed established set of laws (which constitut "the ultimate reading", the reading carved in the rock, unchangeable, as per my understanding of the scripture), the creation was unfolded with the power of the god.

And the god knows best. Please correct any nonsense.

unknownuser

Hello All

thos e ignornat who say non sense about Allah, are nothing but Satan followers, here is the verses

168- O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.

169- He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.

(16
(169)

this is revolting by those igmnornat who thinks they can know what Allah is doing, lol oh yeh now we know well waht Satan is doing

more v erses to come that warn us NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ALLAH THAT WE DON'T KNOW

nazz

Howdy Peace, peace, lol

How could God have chosen to create nothing if he is all knowing? Being All knowing implies that God must know beforehand all of his actions, and therefore, he had no choice in creating everything.
This is a classic philosophical argument which I have previously delved into only superficially. One (of several) problems here is that you are trying to encompass God within our time-space dimension and within our flawed understanding of creation, when God can not be encompassed nor comprehended. However, for argument's sake, taking a far less orthodox stance I propose the following; (this will be a mouthful, but plausible)

idea Due to God's Omnipotence, despite His 'requirement' to create as a result of His All-knowingness, He is able to 'retract' or nullify any and all of His own 'decisions' and or knowledge AND actions at ANY time concerning everything... breathe... In short, He has the power to 'override' any and all 'restrictions' that by virtue of His Omnipotence/Omniscience He would otherwise be obliged to adhere to. idea

By the way your above argument is not unlike the "unmovable rock" problem, whereby one asks if God could create a rock that even He couldn't move.

Cheers.

Someone

Peace upon all,

And for the main question, if we are going to heaven, I would like you to think on "what would we be like, if we could have anything and everything we want, forever?"

--

unknownuser

HERE IS THE WARNING FOR THOSE IGNORIANT WHO SAY NON SENSE ABOUT ALLAH

Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.

(33)

I believe they better shut up unless they can prove the non sense they say about Allah, however they may continue their ignornat if they wish, they are only securing their well earned seat in Hell