are you and me going to heaven?

bmbmm

Salam,

Follow the book of Allah. Keep on correcting ourselves through the guidance from the book of Allah. Face hardships/trials with the best we could do, again with the guidance from the book of Allah. Then I think me a you will be successful in this life and the hereafter.

Peace P

unknownuser

Peace ahmedbhaghat,zenje and all.
1)ahmedbhaghat;i agree with you. According to your translation i am not a believer.And i am not a quran follower either. You stated ;you are just a kind and good person,thats all.' Well thats all i aspire to be.

2)zenje;I do not subscribe to monotheism.By monotheism i mean one all-powerful,all-knowledgable creator. I believe a god is anything that has life(or will),and by this definition everthing is a god. It has been called infintheism.(an endless number of gods or life-forms).

I am currently at the happiest,most logical understanding of religion that i have had so far in my life.(in my opinion). But as always,there can be/and is more to learn. )

Peace all.

Elke

Peace enquirer

but what if ALL is ONE... wink

tryning to convert you

elke

unknownuser

Peace elke and all. I can understand all being one metaphorically(eg all life is called 'existence',and existence is one word.)But i find it strange that
all is one because that would mean we are all one being,then what is the point of free-will and individual experience?Why would one part of the 'being' oppress or disagree with another part of it,if it was all one?
I would be interested in your theories and thoughts on this issue.(as well as anyone else).
Peace all.

unknownuser

please don't call yourself a muslim and a quran follower, because you are not a muslim neither a quran follower, you are just a kind and good person that's all, now if you tihnk that is enough to be saved, good for you but the Quran contradict you and it says clearly that the good deeds to be considered in the judgment day the perosn MUST BE A BELIEVER
peace be with you

Let his "Creator" Judge him on that and let yourself be judged by the Quran...

Regards,

Rhadamanthus

Aw... this is indeed a great topic.
if i were a remote tribe inside a jungle and nobody was with me, or even if i had comrades they had not had the luck of being wise and prophetic (what kind of luck is that?? but let's just say it is possible as we are so barbaric and know nothing of God, revelation and whatever spirituality).
Yet we will know about God for sure. Why? Because my definition of Book of Allah is the nature! Yes, the nature of universe, the nature of mere grain of sand, and even the nature of human mind and heart.

Look at the universe and surely there be sign for those who think. idea

Even without anything, surely God would give something. So there are no case that was not vulnerable to this approach. As i said to my friend If one to enter heaven must study and learn the depth of scriptures, surely the idiots and imbeciles would be eliminated. My wise friend responded calmly, "It took only a line of scriptures to be fully understood to enter heaven, and if it didn't take that, there's a whole world of Truth out there for the blind, the illiterate, etc. Surely the God is all-merciful." oops

So what's book? What's God? What's heaven? What's hell? If we straightened up our own definition surely the answer to our case-study will reveal. wink

topo

exactly, that was how abraham found god, by observing the nature and listening to the deepest of his heart and conscience.
he didn't have any knowledge of either scriptures or messengers.
the nature and universe, including our own beings, are signature of god. one who observes it will find his way to realization of the creator existence.

Elke

peace enquirer

Sorry not much time to spare

one could consider it either as one being, or as the one creation of the one god. i don't see the problem for free will here. It has been more than once discussed on the forum. IMO we have free will because if not there would be no basis for judgment, but still god, not being concerned by our time and space, already knows our decisions

lk

unknownuser

Peace Zenje,

If one doesn't believe in God at all, or believes in many gods, etc... then the deeds are for nought.

What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?

Peace!

nazz

"What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?"
Read the following; those who do the opposite are those destined for hell. (If you wanted sources other than the Quran for the "period of Quranic revelation", then maybe check out some Hadith? cry )

Successful indeed are the believers;who are reverent during their Contact Prayers (Salat).And they avoid vain talk.And they give their obligatory charity (Zakat).And they maintain their chastity.Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs, do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.When it comes to deposits entrusted to them, as well as any agreements they make, they are trustworthy.And they observe their Contact Prayers (Salat) regularly.Such are the inheritors.They will inherit Paradise, wherein they abide forever. 231?2312 ... See also 2177

unknownuser

Peace idol-free and all. I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?
Peace all.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Enquirer,

I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?

Everything is ONE. All of creation is different forms of the same "substance", we can see this by noting that all creation is made of electrons, protons, and nuetrons.

Also, CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE, the same consciousness in you is the same consciousness in me, just like the air we breath.

However, in the life of this world, we have to maintain the balance between ONENESS and the manifestation of "seperate" objects. We are ONE at the highest level and seperate at the lowest. Our position should be the balanced position(WUSTA), where we are "in the world, but not of the world".

When we come into the world, we are conditioned to see the seperation, so "Oneness" must be realized as we grow spiritually.

I dont know if I answered your request sufficiently, I honestly have not been following this discussion, I have just been sitting back reading different posts for the time being, just got to this thread and havent read all posts.

unknownuser

Peace peaceful-muslim and all. You bring up a very good point; 'What is the difference between, one who 'believes in god' and 'one who doesnt , is'?
Im not fully sure which view you take sister,but i take the view that there are;
a)people who are aware of general universal laws(truths)and try to live their lives according to this.(to maximise happiness of self and others,and reduce suffering).

b)people who are less aware of universal laws(either due to lack of knowledge or not appreciating/forgetting the consequences of harmful deeds.) and they live their lives in a way that can be harmful to theirselves and others.

However a) and b) are not actually real people,but states which we all get into at different stages in our lives.(without exceptions)

So i dont think any person is 100% 'believer' all the time or 100%'non-believer',but always fluctuating between the two. If there is anyone that has never made a mistake or done a bad deed then feel free to call yourself a 100% believer. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Also this definition of believer and non-believer i find divisive and arbitrary. I dont believe there is any such thing as a 100% non-believer,just people who are less aware,or leading lives which make more harm for themselves or/and society. To me belief means being aware,and i know of no human(or life-form )that is not aware. (even if aware in a small way). And shouldnt our job be to help people who are less aware to become more aware(and so happier and less harmful to themselves and their environment)in a loving,tolerant,peaceful,decent way?(whilst also working on maintaining/increasing our own awareness and benefit to self and society.)
Peace all.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Enquirer,

Very good post. I agree that the job is to AWAKEN (make aware).

Belief in the God is similar to belief in the messengers. Many say that we have to believe in "Muhammad, Musa, Ibrahim, etc" but we have no sure proof of them, we just have spiritual stories. Also, the God says in "Koran" that there are some that we were never told about, so the implication is that believing the MESSAGE is automatically making you a beleiver in ALL the messengers. Likewise, it makes us believers in the The God.

Also, that is in line with the oldest recorded "scripture" which is caled "Pert Em Hru" (Book of coming forth by day or Becoming awake).

Anyway, good post.

unknownuser

Peace idol-free and all. Thanks. Any quotes from this book you mention?Sounds very interesting.
Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure? Would it depend on a persons theoretical understanding(his beliefs) or his intent and deeds? How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds? Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them? Even people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them? I am asking questions,in the past i have seen very little response to these type of questions. Look forward to some replies.
Peace all.

zenje

Peace enquirer n all,

Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure?
One doesn't, only that person and God knows. ) The quranic definition is not mine.

How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds?
So do you believe in an "all-merciful god"?.. If not, then the question is moot. But you're right, for non-believers, they will believe on that day, and they will ask for "god's mercy", but their gods will be unable to reply.

Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them?
Yes. Only the GOD guides. The God Forgives. D

Even people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them?
Yes. Only the God guides. The God forgives. D Remember, the "description that some give is not in question here. Just because a calls be a sinner, doent mean b is.

I am asking questions,in the past i have seen little response to these questions.
Perhaps that's because you don't 'like' the answers you get? Maybe they don't 'suit' your idea of how things should be? idea It's all good

What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ?
one believes in God and one doesnt. )

)>-

nazz

I have stated before i am not a believer in the traditional idea of monotheism. (an all-powerful, all-knowing creator)
I've always found this kind of view puzzling to say the least. Particularly from a logical point of view;

idea If we humans (as well as other animals) have a brain and consequently knowledge, how would it be possible for the creator (whatever it may be) not to have similiar and superior faculties?

Also, the power to create something from nothing surely warrants the title "all-powerful", does it not?

unknownuser

Peace nazz and all. How can something be created out of nothing? I would like to see one logical,verified example of this. And if everthing needs a cause (or creator) then what about god? If you say god is 'uncreated',then why cant everthing else be uncreated?
Zenje; how does god guide,forgive,talk etc..? If its through human agency(or angels etc..) then god is in need of something to achieve his actions ,and so is not all-powerful.( not absolute or free of all needs as is often stated.)
psif god is creator,then he needs a creation for him to be a creator,hence again in need of other beings to fulfil his title.
Peace all.

nazz

Cheers enquirer,

How can something be created out of nothing? I would like to see one logical, verified example of this.
You are living a logical, self-verified example of this everyday. There logically must have been a beginning point to the universe. From what did the universe begin? Rocks, gases, molecules, atoms? Where did these begin? Add infinitum... until you come to a point whereby there is nothing. EXCEPT the concept of "god"?which by definition needs no beginning.

If you say god is 'uncreated',then why cant everthing else be uncreated?
"Everything else" can not be 'uncreated', because it is just that... "Everything Else" (other than God). And as we have seen, everything except God needs to be created. Perfect logic.

I know you directed the following to zenje, but I couldn't resist havin' a shot at them myself... please 'forgive' me... wink

Zenje; how does god guide,forgive,talk etc..? If its through human agency(or angels etc..) then god is in need of something to achieve his actions, and so is not all-powerful. (not absolute or free of all needs as is often stated.)
Your logic is flawed. Just because I can command my dog to retrieve a stick, doesn't mean I couldn't have actually walked to where the stick was and got it myself. In like manner, it is not that God needs anything to aid Him, but rather He enjoys the 'benefits' that His station allow Him?the command of subordinates to do His bidding.

if god is creator,then he needs a creation for him to be a creator,hence again in need of other beings to fulfil his title.
Not at all. God could very well have chosen to have created nothing?leaving only His presence in a perfect void?Moreover, God is far above having a single and exclusive title such as mere "creator". He could be anything?not even a "creator", if He so desired.

Peace

Peace be unto you Nazz,
How could God have chosen to create nothing if he is all knowing?
Being All knowing implies that God must know beforehand all of his actions, and therefore, he had no choice in creating everything. If he decided not to create anything, he wouldn't be All knowing. Thus, if God knows every action he is going to do ahead of time, he has no free will to act against that knowledge.

Sorry if its a little confusing,
Peace