are you and me going to heaven?
-
what about people who were born without any knowledge of any scriptures, the case when the world wasn't globally wired yet or even today in remote areas, and lived their lives righteously until they died, what would be the parameter of their salvation then?
I believe Allah said clearly that He will NOT punish anyone who has not received the message, as well He siad He will not punish those who will commit sins while being ignornat as llong as they don't insist on it
i will try to find the verses later today
edited Added missing NOT
-
Peace ahmedbhaghat and all. I have stated before i am not a believer in the traditional idea of monotheism.(an all-powerful,all-knowing creator.)
Peace. -
Peace ahmedbhaghat and all. I have stated before i am not a believer in the traditional idea of monotheism.(an all-powerful,all-knowing creator.)
Peace.Hi
please take the word traditional out of it as the above verse is not a traditipomnal or human made, you have no point to call it as such
the arabic and english words are damn clear, and is directed to those who call themselves believers
you will not be able to kid me bro
please don't call yourself a muslim and a quran follower, because you are not a muslim neither a quran follower, you are just a kind and good person that's all, now if you tihnk that is enough to be saved, good for you but the Quran contradict you and it says clearly that the good deeds to be considered in the judgment day the perosn MUST BE A BELIEVER
peace be with you
-
Peace all,
peace topo and all. I believe good deeds are sufficient without a belief in monotheism,or prophets,or certain religious doctrines.(or what is generally meant as monotheism)
While I'm in total agreement about religious doctrine, I'm not quite sure what you meant by belief in monotheism. If one doesn't believe in God at all, or believes in many gods, etc... then the deeds are for nought.- The example of those who reject their Lord is that their works are like ashes, on which the wind blows strongly on a stormy day, they cannot get anything of what they earned. Such is the farthest misguidance.
what about people who were born without any knowledge of any scriptures, the case when the world wasn't globally wired yet or even today in remote areas, and lived their lives righteously until they died, what would be the parameter of their salvation then?
This is not about scriptures. The belief in god is inherent in every human. Even animals and rocks know this, so if a human says they dont, then they are rejecting that notion, not ignorant of it. I hope I'm clear.Did Abraham require or have any scriptures to find God? idea
-
Salam,
Follow the book of Allah. Keep on correcting ourselves through the guidance from the book of Allah. Face hardships/trials with the best we could do, again with the guidance from the book of Allah. Then I think me a you will be successful in this life and the hereafter.
Peace P
-
Peace ahmedbhaghat,zenje and all.
1)ahmedbhaghat;i agree with you. According to your translation i am not a believer.And i am not a quran follower either. You stated ;you are just a kind and good person,thats all.' Well thats all i aspire to be.2)zenje;I do not subscribe to monotheism.By monotheism i mean one all-powerful,all-knowledgable creator. I believe a god is anything that has life(or will),and by this definition everthing is a god. It has been called infintheism.(an endless number of gods or life-forms).
I am currently at the happiest,most logical understanding of religion that i have had so far in my life.(in my opinion). But as always,there can be/and is more to learn. )
Peace all.
-
Peace elke and all. I can understand all being one metaphorically(eg all life is called 'existence',and existence is one word.)But i find it strange that
all is one because that would mean we are all one being,then what is the point of free-will and individual experience?Why would one part of the 'being' oppress or disagree with another part of it,if it was all one?
I would be interested in your theories and thoughts on this issue.(as well as anyone else).
Peace all. -
please don't call yourself a muslim and a quran follower, because you are not a muslim neither a quran follower, you are just a kind and good person that's all, now if you tihnk that is enough to be saved, good for you but the Quran contradict you and it says clearly that the good deeds to be considered in the judgment day the perosn MUST BE A BELIEVER
peace be with youLet his "Creator" Judge him on that and let yourself be judged by the Quran...
Regards,
-
Aw... this is indeed a great topic.
if i were a remote tribe inside a jungle and nobody was with me, or even if i had comrades they had not had the luck of being wise and prophetic (what kind of luck is that?? but let's just say it is possible as we are so barbaric and know nothing of God, revelation and whatever spirituality).
Yet we will know about God for sure. Why? Because my definition of Book of Allah is the nature! Yes, the nature of universe, the nature of mere grain of sand, and even the nature of human mind and heart.Look at the universe and surely there be sign for those who think. idea
Even without anything, surely God would give something. So there are no case that was not vulnerable to this approach. As i said to my friend If one to enter heaven must study and learn the depth of scriptures, surely the idiots and imbeciles would be eliminated. My wise friend responded calmly, "It took only a line of scriptures to be fully understood to enter heaven, and if it didn't take that, there's a whole world of Truth out there for the blind, the illiterate, etc. Surely the God is all-merciful." oops
So what's book? What's God? What's heaven? What's hell? If we straightened up our own definition surely the answer to our case-study will reveal. wink
-
exactly, that was how abraham found god, by observing the nature and listening to the deepest of his heart and conscience.
he didn't have any knowledge of either scriptures or messengers.
the nature and universe, including our own beings, are signature of god. one who observes it will find his way to realization of the creator existence. -
peace enquirer
Sorry not much time to spare
one could consider it either as one being, or as the one creation of the one god. i don't see the problem for free will here. It has been more than once discussed on the forum. IMO we have free will because if not there would be no basis for judgment, but still god, not being concerned by our time and space, already knows our decisions
lk
-
Peace Zenje,
If one doesn't believe in God at all, or believes in many gods, etc... then the deeds are for nought.
What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?
Peace!
-
"What do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ? And if possible can u give examples from the period of Quranic revelation?"
Read the following; those who do the opposite are those destined for hell. (If you wanted sources other than the Quran for the "period of Quranic revelation", then maybe check out some Hadith? cry )Successful indeed are the believers;who are reverent during their Contact Prayers (Salat).And they avoid vain talk.And they give their obligatory charity (Zakat).And they maintain their chastity.Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs, do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.When it comes to deposits entrusted to them, as well as any agreements they make, they are trustworthy.And they observe their Contact Prayers (Salat) regularly.Such are the inheritors.They will inherit Paradise, wherein they abide forever. 231?2312 ... See also 2177
-
Peace idol-free and all. I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
I would appreciate your input on the topic of; What is monotheism? Does literal monotheism make sense?
Everything is ONE. All of creation is different forms of the same "substance", we can see this by noting that all creation is made of electrons, protons, and nuetrons.
Also, CONSCIOUSNESS is ONE, the same consciousness in you is the same consciousness in me, just like the air we breath.
However, in the life of this world, we have to maintain the balance between ONENESS and the manifestation of "seperate" objects. We are ONE at the highest level and seperate at the lowest. Our position should be the balanced position(WUSTA), where we are "in the world, but not of the world".
When we come into the world, we are conditioned to see the seperation, so "Oneness" must be realized as we grow spiritually.
I dont know if I answered your request sufficiently, I honestly have not been following this discussion, I have just been sitting back reading different posts for the time being, just got to this thread and havent read all posts.
-
Peace peaceful-muslim and all. You bring up a very good point; 'What is the difference between, one who 'believes in god' and 'one who doesnt , is'?
Im not fully sure which view you take sister,but i take the view that there are;
a)people who are aware of general universal laws(truths)and try to live their lives according to this.(to maximise happiness of self and others,and reduce suffering).b)people who are less aware of universal laws(either due to lack of knowledge or not appreciating/forgetting the consequences of harmful deeds.) and they live their lives in a way that can be harmful to theirselves and others.
However a) and b) are not actually real people,but states which we all get into at different stages in our lives.(without exceptions)
So i dont think any person is 100% 'believer' all the time or 100%'non-believer',but always fluctuating between the two. If there is anyone that has never made a mistake or done a bad deed then feel free to call yourself a 100% believer. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Also this definition of believer and non-believer i find divisive and arbitrary. I dont believe there is any such thing as a 100% non-believer,just people who are less aware,or leading lives which make more harm for themselves or/and society. To me belief means being aware,and i know of no human(or life-form )that is not aware. (even if aware in a small way). And shouldnt our job be to help people who are less aware to become more aware(and so happier and less harmful to themselves and their environment)in a loving,tolerant,peaceful,decent way?(whilst also working on maintaining/increasing our own awareness and benefit to self and society.)
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Very good post. I agree that the job is to AWAKEN (make aware).
Belief in the God is similar to belief in the messengers. Many say that we have to believe in "Muhammad, Musa, Ibrahim, etc" but we have no sure proof of them, we just have spiritual stories. Also, the God says in "Koran" that there are some that we were never told about, so the implication is that believing the MESSAGE is automatically making you a beleiver in ALL the messengers. Likewise, it makes us believers in the The God.
Also, that is in line with the oldest recorded "scripture" which is caled "Pert Em Hru" (Book of coming forth by day or Becoming awake).
Anyway, good post.
-
Peace idol-free and all. Thanks. Any quotes from this book you mention?Sounds very interesting.
Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure? Would it depend on a persons theoretical understanding(his beliefs) or his intent and deeds? How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds? Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them? Even people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them? I am asking questions,in the past i have seen very little response to these type of questions. Look forward to some replies.
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer n all,
Zenje; how does one know another person is a believer(according to your quranic definition) for sure?
One doesn't, only that person and God knows. ) The quranic definition is not mine.How can an all-'merciful god' throw a person into hell who has a theoretical misunderstanding( termed 'non-belief' or atheism by some),yet has a good intention and does good deeds?
So do you believe in an "all-merciful god"?.. If not, then the question is moot. But you're right, for non-believers, they will believe on that day, and they will ask for "god's mercy", but their gods will be unable to reply.Surely if he was all-powerful and all-merciful he would guide that person or forgive them?
Yes. Only the GOD guides. The God Forgives. DEven people that are non-believers(by the description that some give,ie atheist))and are commiting harmful acts ,why does not the all- merciful,all- powerful god guide them?
Yes. Only the God guides. The God forgives. D Remember, the "description that some give is not in question here. Just because a calls be a sinner, doent mean b is.I am asking questions,in the past i have seen little response to these questions.
Perhaps that's because you don't 'like' the answers you get? Maybe they don't 'suit' your idea of how things should be? idea It's all goodWhat do u think the difference between 'one who believes in God' and 'one who doesnt' is ?
one believes in God and one doesnt. ))>-