Quran - The Word of God or Man.
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The Magi... you do realize that the word "inspire" here can have several meanings... the normal meaning of seeing something specific or hearing something specific and being to write about it, but also a second meaning of some sort of mental communication. Maybe instead of using the sense of hearing, the phrases are just sort of placed in the mind somehow by otherworldly being (and maybe not, just hypothesizing on possible meanings).
I think we have to realize that there is forcibly some level of human intervention... as it is humans who actually put the words on a piece of paper to make the first physical Koran. I don't think the Koran tells us precisely how it was transmitted and even if different ayats have different origins (yes, I know ultimately that everything, including evil surprisingly enough, has its ultimate source in God, but I'm referring to the more immediate origins here) or if they were all transmitted in the same manner. -
Peace Zein,
So We inspired to Moses "Strike the sea with your staff."
Whose words are "Strike the sea with your staff"... Moses'?.. Muhamad's?.. The staff's?..Firstly, one must know who "We" is, who inspired Moses. GOD, the one and only, cannot be "We". Secondly, in accordance to the Law of Nature, a sea cannot be struck with a staff to split open. And thirdly, science fails to substantiate this notion. I believe its either misconstrued or has a metaphorical understanding.
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danish wrote...
Secondly, in accordance to the Law of Nature, a sea cannot be struck with a staff to split open. And thirdly, science fails to substantiate this notion.science refutes the concept of god (?), so if science fails to substantiate something here, it would be a poor criterion to base judgements upon, unless u challenge the very existent of god!
i am not quite sure what u mean by laws of nature, but if u mean science, then laws are mere hypothesis, good till the time they are proven wrong. science and its laws are as limited as the human mind, and as and when the inferences change, so do the laws!
i am not sure what u mean by quran being the word of god or man! -( could u or anybody else elaborate what it means. cry
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i am not quite sure what u mean by laws of nature, but if u mean science, then laws are mere hypothesis, good till the time they are proven wrong. science and its laws are as limited as the human mind, and as and when the inferences change, so do the laws!
Yes that is correct. Scientific laws can never be absolute but only provisional. These laws stand as long as it is not disproven by a new observation...
Regards,
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i am not quite sure what u mean by laws of nature, but if u mean science, then laws are mere hypothesis, good till the time they are proven wrong. science and its laws are as limited as the human mind, and as and when the inferences change, so do the laws!
Yes that is correct. Scientific laws can never be absolute but only provisional. These laws stand as long as it is not disproven by a new observation...
Regards,
Peace,
The creation is created according to a set of fixed laws defined by the creator. Science on the other hand tries to tune its equations and theories as much as possible with those laws. But the laws of the god are there, unchangeable, as long as the universe would stand.
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danish wrote...
Secondly, in accordance to the Law of Nature, a sea cannot be struck with a staff to split open. And thirdly, science fails to substantiate this notion.science refutes the concept of god (?),
The concept of GOD in relation to science is highly controversial and simply evolving and everchanging.
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=Science+and+God&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowbandso if science fails to substantiate something here, it would be a poor criterion to base judgements upon, unless u challenge the very existent of god!
i am not quite sure what u mean by laws of nature, but if u mean science, then laws are mere hypothesis, good till the time they are proven wrong. science and its laws are as limited as the human mind, and as and when the inferences change, so do the laws!
We are talking about natural phenomenon as mentioned (or misunderstood) in the Quran. I believe the Law of Nature and the Law of Science, though intertwined, the former is absolute while the latter is both objective as well as subjective and hence supporting first point above. Sticks turning into serpents, staff splitting the sea and humans turning into apes and pigs are un-Natural (against the Law of Nature) and science has yet to prove them.
i am not sure what u mean by quran being the word of god or man! -( could u or anybody else elaborate what it means. cry
Please re-read and digest my first post.
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Peace danish and all. I personally think the quran is a mans(or possibly mens) opinions,interpretations,theories of the world,metaphysics,experience,knowledge, predictions and hopes.I dont doubt that there is a lot of wisdom,truth and correct predictions/scientific facts in it. The writer was very learned. What the writers intention was i am not 100% sure,but i will say he wanted society to be cleansed and pure. However if one takes the quran literally in todays society i believe a lot of harm can be caused.(look around at societies that follow literal translations) And if one takes a metaphorical understanding then you can interpret the quran to whatever you want it to say. I try to take ideas from the quran,but realise the knowledge is(in some parts)subjective,relative,incomplete, a different time/context,not applicable any more and sometimes wrong, or misunderstood knowledge from the author.. I thought in islam only god is perfect? If the quran is perfect isnt that two gods? However i do believe benefit can be gained from it, if it is taken as ideas and filtered through a persons conscience, brain and other present knowledge(including science and other texts) in order to benefit all life.
Peace all.Common Eq. How can you say the Quran (revalation from Allah) is mans opinions ? Can you eleborate further.
Peace
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danish wrote...
the concept of GOD in relation to science is highly controversial and simply evolving and everchanging.
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=Science+and+God&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowbandquite irrelevant! science refutes god, u never had a science book teaching u about god!
danish wrote...
We are talking about natural phenomenon as mentioned (or misunderstood) in the Quran. I believe the Law of Nature and the Law of Science, though intertwined, the former is absolute while the latter is both objective as well as subjective and hence supporting first point above. Sticks turning into serpents, staff splitting the sea and humans turning into apes and pigs are un-Natural (against the Law of Nature) and science has yet to prove them.i cant see anything substantiative that u have added in there! laws of nature are not found inscribed on tablets, they are very much the understanding which human minds infer! what science cannot prove does not stand as disproved or false! science is not absolute in itself! again, science and scientific proofs are just as able as those carrying out the research are, and u are perhaps unable to realise this! -)
again, if god exists, then natural laws may very well be suspended as and when god wills, for the simple reason that the natural laws are themselves in place by the will of god!
danish wrote...
Please re-read and digest my first post.i hope u do not suffer the inability to paraphrase ur own views! but now that u have left it to me to understand the confusion u have captured in ur words, i would say that u are confusing quran with a book of history and morals! spare some time to read the quran to observe that its content and theme is quite different from ur proposed book of god! -)
moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies! as such, i asked u to elaborate what u meant by whether quran is word of god or man! perhaps u are suggesting god inspired muhammad certain things and muhammad himself 'worded' it! but what i get from ur post is that u are suggesting absolute alienation of any god from the book! -)
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Peace bmbmm. Firstly i will state this is my opinion/theory. I state it is from man beacause it has a context and time.It does not explain everything
in the universe,and some of its laws and statements are not applicable to this age.(whippings,amputations,internal inconsistencies,no quantum physics,no mention of some current inventions such as tv,telephone etc..)
Also if it is from god how come so many muslims cannot understand even the basics in it.(eg salat and hajj etc..) Especially when the quran says it is a clear book? How is it clear when there is no consensus on many topics? If its from god,why is it not crystal clear to all sincere muslims?
Peace all. -
lotetree wrote...
Yes that is correct. Scientific laws can never be absolute but only provisional. These laws stand as long as it is not disproven by a new observation...Regards,
a law standing is not an absolute law! the fact that science is nothing but human putting brains at work means it will reflect the limitations of the human brain! again, the fact that science has had to reform itself over the years is a sufficient reason to not make it a criterion of that which is beyond its scope! science deals with the known, if a god exists then we move into the realm of the unknown and as such all laws are apt to break down! -)
regards
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danish wrote...
the concept of GOD in relation to science is highly controversial and simply evolving and everchanging.
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=Science+and+God&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowbandquite irrelevant! science refutes god, u never had a science book teaching u about god!
No wonder the science crap of refuting the existence of GOD is illogical. And factually, its quite the opposite, simply because the Concept of GOD is mystical and cannot be proven.
danish wrote...
We are talking about natural phenomenon as mentioned (or misunderstood) in the Quran. I believe the Law of Nature and the Law of Science, though intertwined, the former is absolute while the latter is both objective as well as subjective and hence supporting first point above. Sticks turning into serpents, staff splitting the sea and humans turning into apes and pigs are un-Natural (against the Law of Nature) and science has yet to prove them.##...what science cannot prove does not stand as disproved or false! science is not absolute in itself!
What science cannot prove remains disproved, such as "existence of GOD" and "how humanity began" and "how this earth or the entire universe got created", etc. At this juncture, science can only speculate, nothing else.
again, science and scientific proofs are just as able as those carrying out the research are, and u are perhaps unable to realise this! -)
Only at tangible yet biased and hypocritical levels, since science evolves and changes dramatically. Says one thing at one point of any given criteria and another at another point.
again, if god exists, then natural laws may very well be suspended as and when god wills, for the simple reason that the natural laws are themselves in place by the will of god!
The Will of GOD is not for you, me or the scientists to evaluate. You are mixing the concept of existence of GOD with that of the given Laws of Nature.
The "rain", for example, is generally a distillation process (evaporation + condensation) proven by science, but defined as the Law of Nature intertwined with the Law of Science. What disaster will this rain bring along with lightning and/or hail, who will die or not, what properties will it destroy and precisely how and when, are some of the unforeseen phenomenal examples that science is totally dumbfounded upon and cannot be measured.
danish wrote...
Please re-read and digest my first post.i hope u do not suffer the inability to paraphrase ur own views! but now that u have left it to me to understand the confusion u have captured in ur words, i would say that u are confusing quran with a book of history and morals! spare some time to read the quran to observe that its content and theme is quite different from ur proposed book of god! -)
The Quran obviously came in existence some 1400+ years ago, hence clearly a historical book, period. The theme and content captured in this book speak about the historical (mostly captured and concised from previous books) in addition to the then present events and stories, some of which our unrelated and irrelevant to OUR time. And here, once again, I?ll repeat what I mentioned in my first post We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways. Now then, what was so difficult about understanding this simple statement that you wanted me to paraphrase? It clearly shows your own inability and suffering from understanding, not only my posts but the Quran itself.
Read the very first chapter and understand that it is MAN who wrote it down by his own perceptive/mystical mind to call upon GOD and beg for HIS mercy and guidance. Mind you, I myself call upon GOD, perceive HIS attributes and the beauty of HIS creation, but in my own ways, realm and aura that perfectly surrounds my visions. If I wrote these contemplations in a book (without revealing the author) along with stories and events unfolded and witnessed by ONLY myself in truth, would anyone call it GOD?s words a millennium from now? Think hard on this one.
moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies! as such, i asked u to elaborate what u meant by whether quran is word of god or man! perhaps u are suggesting god inspired muhammad certain things and muhammad himself 'worded' it! but what i get from ur post is that u are suggesting absolute alienation of any god from the book! -)
Any book claiming itself of anything is no proof. All books are written materials by MAN, the contents of which are either factual, poetic (metaphorical) or reflections/perceptions. No written book that we know of, as of today, came out of thin air.
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moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies!
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?
Regards,
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Danish
you are missing the point that I raised before
if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book
now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?
I need a rationle answer please
thanks
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Danish
you also need to respond to the folloing things we know in the Quran
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clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans
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clealy it says no humans can write something like it
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it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content
there is more arguments I will bring to you bro, but I need raional answers please
I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective
mate your argument is nothing, because you lack knowledge in the Arabic Balagha, and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there
cheers
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danish wrote...
No wonder the science crap of refuting the existence of GOD is illogical. And factually, its quite the opposite, simply because the Concept of GOD is mystical and cannot be proven.so u are saying science is crap when it refutes god? cool -) concept of god is beyond science, but not beyond comprehension! the limitations of science is its inability to measure what cannot be quantified or qualified or substantiated (aka made experimentable)! but god can be seen through its creation! ofcourse, which god it is who created would be a different issue altogether!
danish wrote...
What science cannot prove remains disproved, such as "existence of GOD" and "how humanity began" and "how this earth or the entire universe got created", etc. At this juncture, science can only speculate, nothing else.indeed not! what science fails to prove is not disproved but unproven! for all its understanding science cannot create an atom out of nothing (and i mean nothing)! so would that be something cannot be created out of nothing? but we have a whole universe with its astonishing complexity, and it had to start from nothing at some point!
danish wrote...
Only at tangible yet biased and hypocritical levels, since science evolves and changes dramatically. Says one thing at one point of any given criteria and another at another point.yeah, and hypocrites are never good reference!
danish wrote...
The Will of GOD is not for you, me or the scientists to evaluate. You are mixing the concept of existence of GOD with that of the given Laws of Nature.okay -(
danish wrote...
The "rain", for example, is generally a distillation process (evaporation + condensation) proven by science, but defined as the Law of Nature intertwined with the Law of Science. What disaster will this rain bring along with lightning and/or hail, who will die or not, what properties will it destroy and precisely how and when, are some of the unforeseen phenomenal examples that science is totally dumbfounded upon and cannot be measured.indeed it is a process which science understands, not something it has formulated! if u believe the laws of nature have been effected without any involvement by god, it would be a different case! if u say god has decreed the laws of nature (that is water would evaporate and not iron), then u may have to concede that god indeed retains the rights to suspend its laws as and when it wishes!
danish wrote...
The Quran obviously came in existence some 1400+ years ago, hence clearly a historical book, period.i got no clue how u inferred the part after 'hence', any science u applied? p
danish wrote...
The theme and content captured in this book speak about the historical (mostly captured and concised from previous books) in addition to the then present events and stories, some of which our unrelated and irrelevant to OUR time.And here, once again, I?ll repeat what I mentioned in my first post We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways. Now then, what was so difficult about understanding this simple statement that you wanted me to paraphrase? It clearly shows your own inability and suffering from understanding, not only my posts but the Quran itself.lolz! ok chill! again, i dont find quran talking about socrates or karana or alexander or caesar! if it does speak about history its mostly about some prophets and their experiences with their people! again, it goes against much of earlier asserted history, like it states that ishmael and not isaac was the sacrificial son of abraham! then how did its author dare to defy the very source from which it was extracted? and if it is right as opposed to bible, then who gave such information?
again, if u state that this is the work of man, what tells u this work is worth reflecting upon? how do u know the stuff contained therein has even the semblance of wisdom?
danish wrote...
Read the very first chapter and understand that it is MAN who wrote it down by his own perceptive/mystical mind to call upon GOD and beg for HIS mercy and guidance. Mind you, I myself call upon GOD, perceive HIS attributes and the beauty of HIS creation, but in my own ways, realm and aura that perfectly surrounds my visions. If I wrote these contemplations in a book (without revealing the author) along with stories and events unfolded and witnessed by ONLY myself in truth, would anyone call it GOD?s words a millennium from now? Think hard on this one.####### yeah, we cannot have god begging to man for mercy and guidance! god revealed the words with which to implore it, whats the fuss about it? -) yeah u can try that, but dont forget to claim being a messenger or something! maybe then we can have some people deliberate over whether god has revealed something to u!
danish wrote...
Any book claiming itself of anything is no proof. All books are written materials by MAN, the contents of which are either factual, poetic (metaphorical) or reflections/perceptions. No written book that we know of, as of today, came out of thin air.######## its not about who has 'written' it (on paper), or else i have still not understood ur purpose. -S its about whether whoever wrote it on some parchment or whatever, wrote it of his own, or was it god who revealed to him something and he paraphrased it, or the exact words were revealed and he penned it down! if u say that god did not reveal it and it was simply a man's work, then we do have the book claiming itself to be a revelation from god! now as u pointed out, something would not come out of thin air, so it would imply that the man (or some other man) has written a lie that its a revelation from god! as such the book lies and u have no reason to reflect upon it to figure out ur pathways! -)
######### that said, do u believe 'god' has anything to do with that book? i personally am no big fan of god! -S
########## ok, i have made a real hash of it! cry
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otetree wrote...
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?indeed not! but here the book claims its a revelation of god! if u then claim that it was a man who wrote it, then u will have to concede that the man was a liar! so do u go ahead and concede a man wrote that book and he was a liar?
regards
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lolz! ok chill! again, i dont find quran talking about socrates or karana or alexander or caesar! if it does speak about history its mostly about some prophets and their experiences with their people! again, it goes against much of earlier asserted history, like it states that ishmael and not isaac was the sacrificial son of abraham! then how did its author dare to defy the very source from which it was extracted? and if it is right as opposed to bible, then who gave such information?
again, if u state that this is the work of man, what tells u this work is worth reflecting upon? how do u know the stuff contained therein has even the semblance of wisdom?
Very true bro
also the author dared to oppose Jesus divinity, as well many other conflicting stories in the Bible
Peace be with you anwar
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otetree wrote...
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?indeed not! but here the book claims its a revelation of god!
Then you can't go ahead and say because it claims it is from God therefore it is so or can you? If that was the case then you might as well as take work of David Ike seriously -)
if u then claim that it was a man who wrote it, then u will have to concede that the man was a liar!
It came through a human being and therefore you can never be sure if it is Divine word or man's word. There is no way of getting around this. You either believe in it or you don't.
Regards,