Quran - The Word of God or Man.

thegod

danish wrote...
the concept of GOD in relation to science is highly controversial and simply evolving and everchanging.
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=Science+and+God&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowband

quite irrelevant! science refutes god, u never had a science book teaching u about god!

danish wrote...
We are talking about natural phenomenon as mentioned (or misunderstood) in the Quran. I believe the Law of Nature and the Law of Science, though intertwined, the former is absolute while the latter is both objective as well as subjective and hence supporting first point above. Sticks turning into serpents, staff splitting the sea and humans turning into apes and pigs are un-Natural (against the Law of Nature) and science has yet to prove them.

i cant see anything substantiative that u have added in there! laws of nature are not found inscribed on tablets, they are very much the understanding which human minds infer! what science cannot prove does not stand as disproved or false! science is not absolute in itself! again, science and scientific proofs are just as able as those carrying out the research are, and u are perhaps unable to realise this! -)

again, if god exists, then natural laws may very well be suspended as and when god wills, for the simple reason that the natural laws are themselves in place by the will of god!

danish wrote...
Please re-read and digest my first post.

i hope u do not suffer the inability to paraphrase ur own views! but now that u have left it to me to understand the confusion u have captured in ur words, i would say that u are confusing quran with a book of history and morals! spare some time to read the quran to observe that its content and theme is quite different from ur proposed book of god! -)

moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies! as such, i asked u to elaborate what u meant by whether quran is word of god or man! perhaps u are suggesting god inspired muhammad certain things and muhammad himself 'worded' it! but what i get from ur post is that u are suggesting absolute alienation of any god from the book! -)

unknownuser

Peace bmbmm. Firstly i will state this is my opinion/theory. I state it is from man beacause it has a context and time.It does not explain everything
in the universe,and some of its laws and statements are not applicable to this age.(whippings,amputations,internal inconsistencies,no quantum physics,no mention of some current inventions such as tv,telephone etc..)
Also if it is from god how come so many muslims cannot understand even the basics in it.(eg salat and hajj etc..) Especially when the quran says it is a clear book? How is it clear when there is no consensus on many topics? If its from god,why is it not crystal clear to all sincere muslims?
Peace all.

thegod

lotetree wrote...
Yes that is correct. Scientific laws can never be absolute but only provisional. These laws stand as long as it is not disproven by a new observation...

Regards,

a law standing is not an absolute law! the fact that science is nothing but human putting brains at work means it will reflect the limitations of the human brain! again, the fact that science has had to reform itself over the years is a sufficient reason to not make it a criterion of that which is beyond its scope! science deals with the known, if a god exists then we move into the realm of the unknown and as such all laws are apt to break down! -)

regards

unknownuser

danish wrote...
the concept of GOD in relation to science is highly controversial and simply evolving and everchanging.
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=Science+and+God&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowband

quite irrelevant! science refutes god, u never had a science book teaching u about god!

No wonder the science crap of refuting the existence of GOD is illogical. And factually, its quite the opposite, simply because the Concept of GOD is mystical and cannot be proven.

danish wrote...
We are talking about natural phenomenon as mentioned (or misunderstood) in the Quran. I believe the Law of Nature and the Law of Science, though intertwined, the former is absolute while the latter is both objective as well as subjective and hence supporting first point above. Sticks turning into serpents, staff splitting the sea and humans turning into apes and pigs are un-Natural (against the Law of Nature) and science has yet to prove them.

##...what science cannot prove does not stand as disproved or false! science is not absolute in itself!

What science cannot prove remains disproved, such as "existence of GOD" and "how humanity began" and "how this earth or the entire universe got created", etc. At this juncture, science can only speculate, nothing else.

again, science and scientific proofs are just as able as those carrying out the research are, and u are perhaps unable to realise this! -)

Only at tangible yet biased and hypocritical levels, since science evolves and changes dramatically. Says one thing at one point of any given criteria and another at another point.

again, if god exists, then natural laws may very well be suspended as and when god wills, for the simple reason that the natural laws are themselves in place by the will of god!

The Will of GOD is not for you, me or the scientists to evaluate. You are mixing the concept of existence of GOD with that of the given Laws of Nature.

The "rain", for example, is generally a distillation process (evaporation + condensation) proven by science, but defined as the Law of Nature intertwined with the Law of Science. What disaster will this rain bring along with lightning and/or hail, who will die or not, what properties will it destroy and precisely how and when, are some of the unforeseen phenomenal examples that science is totally dumbfounded upon and cannot be measured.

danish wrote...
Please re-read and digest my first post.

i hope u do not suffer the inability to paraphrase ur own views! but now that u have left it to me to understand the confusion u have captured in ur words, i would say that u are confusing quran with a book of history and morals! spare some time to read the quran to observe that its content and theme is quite different from ur proposed book of god! -)

The Quran obviously came in existence some 1400+ years ago, hence clearly a historical book, period. The theme and content captured in this book speak about the historical (mostly captured and concised from previous books) in addition to the then present events and stories, some of which our unrelated and irrelevant to OUR time. And here, once again, I?ll repeat what I mentioned in my first post We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways. Now then, what was so difficult about understanding this simple statement that you wanted me to paraphrase? It clearly shows your own inability and suffering from understanding, not only my posts but the Quran itself.

Read the very first chapter and understand that it is MAN who wrote it down by his own perceptive/mystical mind to call upon GOD and beg for HIS mercy and guidance. Mind you, I myself call upon GOD, perceive HIS attributes and the beauty of HIS creation, but in my own ways, realm and aura that perfectly surrounds my visions. If I wrote these contemplations in a book (without revealing the author) along with stories and events unfolded and witnessed by ONLY myself in truth, would anyone call it GOD?s words a millennium from now? Think hard on this one.

moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies! as such, i asked u to elaborate what u meant by whether quran is word of god or man! perhaps u are suggesting god inspired muhammad certain things and muhammad himself 'worded' it! but what i get from ur post is that u are suggesting absolute alienation of any god from the book! -)

Any book claiming itself of anything is no proof. All books are written materials by MAN, the contents of which are either factual, poetic (metaphorical) or reflections/perceptions. No written book that we know of, as of today, came out of thin air.

unknownuser

moreover, like already pointed out, the book claims its content is a revelation from god, so if somebody says that it is a book 'revealed' by humans, it would be the same as saying the book lies!

Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?

Regards,

unknownuser

Danish

you are missing the point that I raised before

if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book

now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?

I need a rationle answer please

thanks

unknownuser

Danish

you also need to respond to the folloing things we know in the Quran

clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans
clealy it says no humans can write something like it
it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content

there is more arguments I will bring to you bro, but I need raional answers please

I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective

mate your argument is nothing, because you lack knowledge in the Arabic Balagha, and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there

cheers

thegod

danish wrote...
No wonder the science crap of refuting the existence of GOD is illogical. And factually, its quite the opposite, simply because the Concept of GOD is mystical and cannot be proven.

so u are saying science is crap when it refutes god? cool -) concept of god is beyond science, but not beyond comprehension! the limitations of science is its inability to measure what cannot be quantified or qualified or substantiated (aka made experimentable)! but god can be seen through its creation! ofcourse, which god it is who created would be a different issue altogether!

danish wrote...
What science cannot prove remains disproved, such as "existence of GOD" and "how humanity began" and "how this earth or the entire universe got created", etc. At this juncture, science can only speculate, nothing else.

indeed not! what science fails to prove is not disproved but unproven! for all its understanding science cannot create an atom out of nothing (and i mean nothing)! so would that be something cannot be created out of nothing? but we have a whole universe with its astonishing complexity, and it had to start from nothing at some point!

danish wrote...
Only at tangible yet biased and hypocritical levels, since science evolves and changes dramatically. Says one thing at one point of any given criteria and another at another point.

yeah, and hypocrites are never good reference!

danish wrote...
The Will of GOD is not for you, me or the scientists to evaluate. You are mixing the concept of existence of GOD with that of the given Laws of Nature.

okay -(

danish wrote...
The "rain", for example, is generally a distillation process (evaporation + condensation) proven by science, but defined as the Law of Nature intertwined with the Law of Science. What disaster will this rain bring along with lightning and/or hail, who will die or not, what properties will it destroy and precisely how and when, are some of the unforeseen phenomenal examples that science is totally dumbfounded upon and cannot be measured.

indeed it is a process which science understands, not something it has formulated! if u believe the laws of nature have been effected without any involvement by god, it would be a different case! if u say god has decreed the laws of nature (that is water would evaporate and not iron), then u may have to concede that god indeed retains the rights to suspend its laws as and when it wishes!

danish wrote...
The Quran obviously came in existence some 1400+ years ago, hence clearly a historical book, period.

i got no clue how u inferred the part after 'hence', any science u applied? p

danish wrote...
The theme and content captured in this book speak about the historical (mostly captured and concised from previous books) in addition to the then present events and stories, some of which our unrelated and irrelevant to OUR time.And here, once again, I?ll repeat what I mentioned in my first post We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways. Now then, what was so difficult about understanding this simple statement that you wanted me to paraphrase? It clearly shows your own inability and suffering from understanding, not only my posts but the Quran itself.

lolz! ok chill! again, i dont find quran talking about socrates or karana or alexander or caesar! if it does speak about history its mostly about some prophets and their experiences with their people! again, it goes against much of earlier asserted history, like it states that ishmael and not isaac was the sacrificial son of abraham! then how did its author dare to defy the very source from which it was extracted? and if it is right as opposed to bible, then who gave such information?

again, if u state that this is the work of man, what tells u this work is worth reflecting upon? how do u know the stuff contained therein has even the semblance of wisdom?

danish wrote...
Read the very first chapter and understand that it is MAN who wrote it down by his own perceptive/mystical mind to call upon GOD and beg for HIS mercy and guidance. Mind you, I myself call upon GOD, perceive HIS attributes and the beauty of HIS creation, but in my own ways, realm and aura that perfectly surrounds my visions. If I wrote these contemplations in a book (without revealing the author) along with stories and events unfolded and witnessed by ONLY myself in truth, would anyone call it GOD?s words a millennium from now? Think hard on this one.

####### yeah, we cannot have god begging to man for mercy and guidance! god revealed the words with which to implore it, whats the fuss about it? -) yeah u can try that, but dont forget to claim being a messenger or something! maybe then we can have some people deliberate over whether god has revealed something to u!

danish wrote...
Any book claiming itself of anything is no proof. All books are written materials by MAN, the contents of which are either factual, poetic (metaphorical) or reflections/perceptions. No written book that we know of, as of today, came out of thin air.

######## its not about who has 'written' it (on paper), or else i have still not understood ur purpose. -S its about whether whoever wrote it on some parchment or whatever, wrote it of his own, or was it god who revealed to him something and he paraphrased it, or the exact words were revealed and he penned it down! if u say that god did not reveal it and it was simply a man's work, then we do have the book claiming itself to be a revelation from god! now as u pointed out, something would not come out of thin air, so it would imply that the man (or some other man) has written a lie that its a revelation from god! as such the book lies and u have no reason to reflect upon it to figure out ur pathways! -)

######### that said, do u believe 'god' has anything to do with that book? i personally am no big fan of god! -S

########## ok, i have made a real hash of it! cry

thegod

l
otetree wrote...
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?

indeed not! but here the book claims its a revelation of god! if u then claim that it was a man who wrote it, then u will have to concede that the man was a liar! so do u go ahead and concede a man wrote that book and he was a liar?

regards

thegod

lotetree wrote...
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?

oppps! sorry about that last post! -)

unknownuser

lolz! ok chill! again, i dont find quran talking about socrates or karana or alexander or caesar! if it does speak about history its mostly about some prophets and their experiences with their people! again, it goes against much of earlier asserted history, like it states that ishmael and not isaac was the sacrificial son of abraham! then how did its author dare to defy the very source from which it was extracted? and if it is right as opposed to bible, then who gave such information?

again, if u state that this is the work of man, what tells u this work is worth reflecting upon? how do u know the stuff contained therein has even the semblance of wisdom?

Very true bro

also the author dared to oppose Jesus divinity, as well many other conflicting stories in the Bible

Peace be with you anwar

unknownuser

l
otetree wrote...
Does a mere claim make something authentic? How does that work?

indeed not! but here the book claims its a revelation of god!

Then you can't go ahead and say because it claims it is from God therefore it is so or can you? If that was the case then you might as well as take work of David Ike seriously -)

if u then claim that it was a man who wrote it, then u will have to concede that the man was a liar!

It came through a human being and therefore you can never be sure if it is Divine word or man's word. There is no way of getting around this. You either believe in it or you don't.

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello

We for a singular in arabic and hebro languaes is used for honor and respect, this is very common

in datc it is even very common in other language

please explain the me why the Queen of England call herself "We"?

thanks

I will have to study this a bit further. Is it also common practice in arabic to refer to oneself by the singular third person pronoun "he" "??" as the Koran often does for God... why swap between "he" and "we" all the time if he wanted it to be clear... it seems to me that some sort of distinction is made, though my analysis of it may have been incorrect.

Peace

don't forgrt that Allah also referred to Himself in the Quran using "I"

peace

Ok... so we now have three pronouns used - "I", "we", and "he". Now, if the Koran is supposed to be as simple as it claims, why the confusion with using three different pronouns?

This is something in the Arabic grammar and I could not see any confusion whatsoever, the Quran contains stories and Allah as an author chose to implement something called Balagha which include something called Iltifat and this technique is used intensively in the Quran and the Arabic language professionals were stunned by this high level of balagha

Are there several narrators?

there is only one Quran revealed as far as I know and as far as I seen in my life, there might be other copies that differs a bit but not in the content or the meaning, just a mere few letters that possibly came to existence because of the different pronunciations between different tribes with different accents

From what I have seen "I" is much rarer than "we" - and it seems to be used predominantly in phrases directed toward the Jews...

Yes and this is very common in the Arabic and Hebrew languages, it is for honour and respect, the Queen of England always refer to herself as we

Not sure that we was used to the jews only as I?m sure it was used for all other types of humans as well

perhaps the Jews were more used to the "I" form in scripture,

actually the jews more used to the we in their language as a referral to a singualr

and so the language was adapted for the target audience of the ayat?

sure the jews is a big target audience in the Quran, but you are missing the point actually, their numerous mentions in the Quran are due to the numerous prophets sent to them that the Quran mention them, in fact it seems to me that the jews are cursed in the Quran, I guess this can be a message of mercy to them so they wake up

The Quran audience is the whole world as it says about itself

Perhaps the verses with "I" are drawn directly from the Mother of the Book (Umm al-Kitab) whereas the "we" is some sort of narrator, and these phrases are more of the other allegorical kind than those which use "I" or "he"?

I?m not sure about that, but you are right that there is Umm a Kitab up there and I believe the Quran is just a small part of it

The issue of we and I has lil significance in the language structure other than Balagha and its purpose is to show honor and respect

Allah is telling us that we should honour Him and that is part of worshipping Him

It seems that the traditional explanation is to just wave your hands and say that all these pronouns refer to the same unity. Has this ever been studied in detail... as in what in the Koran is said by "we", what is said by "he", what is said by "I" and what is said by "Allah" - is there some kind of pattern there?

Yes it is a pattern in the language and for a book that tells us stories, you should expect all these sort of tings and it makes great sense, it is not like God will give us a written speech, it is a book of guidance to man kind and the author chose to make it this way

Your problem is you can?t come to grip that these are the true words of our God, that is also part of the belief btw

(I'm not saying there necessarily is, but it would be an interesting line of research to figure our if there are multiple narrators - none of which BTW have to be human; they could very well be a mixture of God and angels).

impossible as the Quran was crystal clear in numerous locations that there is only one God named Allah, and He is the author of the Quran, in fact the Quran told us that the angels are ignorant in anything Allah didn?t teach them, i.e. there are many words the angels don?t know as stated in the Quran, yet to write a book of guidance and hide their identity, it does not add up bro

It seems to me that even among the Quran only people (and especially among the code-19 ones) there are still certain ground norms which are not questioned in light of what is said in the book, but are rather taken on blind faith.

people can keep questioning as much as they wish, all the answers regarding God and faith is in the book though (only for the reasonable questions that does not conflict with the fact that we are setting a test) for example you can NOT ask, what Allah looks like?

One thing I can say is that from what I have seen, it really takes a lot of knowledge and intellect to put together how the different elements of the Koran work together - something which is alluded to in 37. It is very easy to misinterpret the Koran based on ones experiences and prior prejudices, and I think that is the greatest danger of the text, and in fact the great danger of any revelation. It is perhaps for this reason that it is encouraged to memorize all of it, so that you can easily make links between the different parts and to reconstruct the order in your head to make sense of it... unfortunately today people memorize it for totally different reasons that have nothing to do with critical analysis.

this only applies to the ones whose in hearts there is a perversity as 37 is telling us, 37 is also a warning to the believers not to chase the confusing verses meanings as it is only a test and Allah is the only entity that knows its meaning

Linking the quran verses, is a must for understanding the Quran and that is what it means by ?Fully detailed? and ?The Quran explains itself?

peace

thegod

lotetree wrote...
Then you can't go ahead and say because it claims it is from God therefore it is so or can you? If that was the case then you might as well as take work of David Ike seriously

i do not think i have as yet said that because it claims to be from god it is from god! pehrhaps u are misunderstanding and hence quoting me out of context! i said if u say it is the work of some man, then u say that the man lies that it is the book of god! so do u propose that whoever wrote that book has lied about it being a revelation of god?

lotetree wrote...
It came through a human being and therefore you can never be sure if it is Divine word or man's word. There is no way of getting around this.

exaclty, so what would according to u would constitute as proof?

lotetree wrote...
You either believe in it or you don't.

now that u have urself come up with a do or dont, what do u pick? that it is the word of god; or that it is a work of man who has lied therein that it be the word of god? -)

thegod

lotetree wrote...
Regards,

regards -)

thegod

ahmedbahgat wrote...
Peace be with you

peace be with you -)

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed,

Danish

you are missing the point that I raised before

if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book

now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?

I need a rationle answer please

thanks

In order to answer your concerns and for you to understand my perspectives, you too must confer rationally and not with closed-mindedness by insisting and deliberating that everything mentioned in the Quran are absolute GOD's Words because it says so and that's it, without proofs. That's a layman's approach. Now lets start with the following verses and then read ahead

8013-16
Khalifa
In honorable scriptures.
Exalted and pure.
(Written) by the hands of messengers.
Who are honorable and righteous.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-
Honourable and Pious and Just.

Pickthal
On honoured leaves
Exalted, purified,
(Set down) by scribes
Noble and righteous.

Shakir
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes
Noble, virtuous.

"Progressive Muslims"
In scripts which are honourable.
Raised and pure.
By the hands of revealed ones.
Honourable and righteous.

And here is what I wrote at the beginning of this thread in relations to above verses
?that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.

I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times.

The Quran is clearly seen written with short, incomplete and repetitious sentences at many places. Besides, it came in stages over a span of time (see verses below), perhaps many years. This shows, mentioned in history books as well, that the words, phrases and sentences were actually written at various points on various materials (parchments, leaves, stones, wood, etc.) by several men, as and when the messages were dictated and then later collected, revamped and compiled into a book form. This very book was then further re-arranged and processed by a set of attributed pronounceable words and verse/chapter numberings along with individual chapter titles, all of which are purely men?s works. Today, we witness a few versions of them, one of which is a re-mastered mathematical one, deemed as the most authentic and authored by yet another messenger named Rashad Khalifa, only to find out its continued complexness and ever twisting and mocking of just about every word in the entire Quran, that no man today can better understand than the other, and yet calling it GOD?s Words.

I hope you can see why the Quran doesn?t have an author's or "bunch of humans" names imprinted on the cover of the book.

17106
Khalifa
A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.

Pickthal
And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.

Shakir
And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

"Progressive Muslims"
And a Quran that We have separated, so that you may read it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.

I'll reply to your other concerns in stages.

unknownuser

Thank you danish

I like the stages thingy, we should be organised for a constructive discussion, therefore please hold on until I reply to the above and after we totally finalise this point we can move to the next, please consider that an option of finalising the point is we agree to disagree

i'm heading to work now and will be busy for a couple of hours then see if I can respond from there, if not then it has to happen after I come back from work which about 9 hours from now

peace

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed,

clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans

The "bunch of humans" thingy has been elaborated in my last post. As far as "the Quran was revealed on Mohammad" by GOD goes, here's my 2p

Firstly, as I understand it, the word ?GOD? is purely a mystical/philosophical one for obvious reasons. Secondly, a ?revelation? is something revealing or make known to, for what is embedded in ones' mind by inspiration, thoughts, meditation, reflection and reasoning, by virtue of event/circumstance that one witnesses every moment of ones' life.

Every human (including the blind), at various levels, have certain instincts born within them that reflect their lives in which they live. There?s no possible way to evaluate these perceptions to have been directed and reputed by GOD, but by evaluating, reasoning and weighing in, in what is profoundly measured by reality/nature in that moment of time and space by which we speak about as being ?inspired or revealed by GOD?.

clealy it says no humans can write something like it

Similar books have been written throughout history of mankind and the Quran itself mentions it as well. One just doesn't add up and look at it realistically, simply because in which they have been taught and bought up.

it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content

Explained in previous post. Besides, just how does one know what has been added/modified or not and with what mindset can you state with affirmation, and not just because the verse says so?

I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective

The "believers perspective", exactly my point and as elaborated above in your first point.

...and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there

Does the Quran mention saying that one must recite sura 1 in every raka in salaat? Besides, what is salaat as understood by you (as a ritual prayer) is totally out of question for me. So where do we stand now and what has become of what you call "GOD's Words"?

unknownuser

Danish

you are missing the point that I raised before

if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book

now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?

I need a rationle answer please

thanks

Salaam Ahmed,

Salam mate

In order to answer your concerns and for you to understand my perspectives, you too must confer rationally

sure bro, but you have to understand the following strong rationale

what is belief?

It is to belief in something that was unseen

Therefore and by using logic, to believe in something , that thing should be unseen,

For example if I see God then I don?t need to believe in His existence because I saw Him for real and consequently it is been confirmed not is not a belief any more, if you agree on this then we can continue our discussion, if you don?t agree then you have to refute it first

and not with closed-mindedness

I actually never been closed minded in my life

by insisting and deliberating that everything mentioned in the Quran are absolute GOD's Words

well, here we have a problem, firstly there is no one who claimed to have authored the Quran but Allah, therefore it has to be His unless someone comes in and say sorry I authored this book

for example if a group of people in a pub and someone find 100 bucks on the floor, then that guy acted honestly and shouted if any lost any money and how much, one person from that crowd came forward and stated that this money is his, NO ONE ELSE IN THE VICINITY CLAIMED THE SAME, therefore IT MUST BE HIS, unless another person comes in and say sorry this money is mine, if this happens then we have a bigf problem and no one will know who owns the money, the Quran is the exactly the same, NO ONE BUT ALLAH CLAIMED TO HAVE AITHORED THE BOOK AS WELL PROTECT IT, then logically speaking it must be His, we can also see a history of over 1400 years that the words been preserved therefore what we read in this book does not really sound silly rather it is becomes more evident that the Quran can?t be by any other than Allah, especially in over 1400 years no human claimed to be the author of the Quran

add to the above the belief in the unseen as a requirement to be a Muslim, then we have to believe that this book is as it claims, because we didnlt see Allah wrote this book, because if we did then the belief in it as a message from God is spoiled and does not make sense any more

it is all part of the belief my friend and you really sound like some atheists who only believe in matter

because it says so and that's it,

of course, this is part of the belief in the unseen as I explained

without proofs.

what proofs exactly?

For Allah to come and say that He authored this book?, well He did so in the Quran, but I guess you want to see Him for real saying that, well you don?t need the belief then bro, got it

That's a layman's approach.

bro forget the layman approach, there is only one approach for the Quran, which is believing it is the words of Allah that was delivered to Mohammad then following it

Now lets start with the following verses and then read ahead

8013-16
Khalifa
In honorable scriptures.
Exalted and pure.
(Written) by the hands of messengers.
Who are honorable and righteous.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-
Honourable and Pious and Just.

Pickthal
On honoured leaves
Exalted, purified,
(Set down) by scribes
Noble and righteous.

Shakir
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes
Noble, virtuous.

"Progressive Muslims"
In scripts which are honourable.
Raised and pure.
By the hands of revealed ones.
Honourable and righteous.

I guess you mean that everyone of the above translated the words differently?, well, thanks for that, that proves my point, because what you showed me above is the words of men not the words of Allah, sorry it does not look like the Arabic Quran to me

And here is what I wrote at the beginning of this thread in relations to above verses
?that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.

but you provided no proofs but a list or some English translations by a few men, bro your evidence can not be admissible, we are talking the real words which was in Arabic and we only have one copy of it and no man claimed to be written it, as you can see from you example above, you associated a man with every translation, why?, simply because they claimed to have done it, LOL bro, I hope you get my very valid and logical point

I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times.

fine and I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the Arabic Quran as the real words of Allah, humans can philosophise aas much as they want, but to be mystical and never link themselves to that great book, I guess they were stupid men not wise at all, there is no logical refute on why a book author hide him/herself

The Quran is clearly seen written with short, incomplete and repetitious sentences at many places.

that is you flawed impression really, firstly the short sentences is one of its great language miracle, where you get plenty of info with the least words possible, it is complete as far as the guidance and passing the test is concerned, but I will not read in how to make an omelette, the repetitions are also one of its great language miracle, the way you said it as if it is repeated with the exact words , while the repeated verses with exact words are very lil. Possibly less than 10 out of thousands, the other type of repetitions is the miraculous one because it repeats the story or the warning using different Arabic words while the meaning stays the same, this is great indeed, human book authors never do that.

From the above your three impressions about the Quran are unfounded, a bit misleading and inline that you lack the proper understanding to this important message, sorry

Besides, it came in stages over a span of time (see verses below), perhaps many years.

yeh about 23 years, but what is wrong with that?, the Quran actually lived with the prophet life, in fact the Quran is the real prophet Hadith and Sunnah, because in many incidents we see verses that was revealed to the prophet regarding a specific incident that happened during his time, also Allah told us in the Quran that He planned to reveal it slowly therefore the Author od the Quran didn?t lie to us rather told us the exact truth and that is what you expect from a Just God

This shows, mentioned in history books as well, that the words, phrases and sentences were actually written at various points on various materials (parchments, leaves, stones, wood, etc.) by several men, as and when the messages were dictated and then later collected, revamped and compiled into a book form.

But Allah told us that He will collect it, the protect it, I guess Allah will not come down here and collect then stand next to it protecting it bro, Allah causes the reasons and the reasons are executed by the humans without them being aware at all

This very book was then further re-arranged and processed by a set of attributed pronounceable words and verse/chapter numberings along with individual chapter titles, all of which are purely men?s works.

for me I see it as Allah made these people to work for that task without them knowing, very simple bro, Allah can do anything He wants, also in this life He always does it without spoiling the main test we all going through

Today, we witness a few versions of them, one of which is a re-mastered mathematical one, deemed as the most authentic and authored by yet another messenger named Rashad Khalifa, only to find out its continued complexness and ever twisting and mocking of just about every word in the entire Quran, that no man today can better understand than the other, and yet calling it GOD?s Words.

bro Satan is very clever and he took the oath to screw us all, only the winners who will be able to overcome him, this is true as the Quran told us, don?t please come and tell me this weak argument that I?m blaming Satan because I?m not, I?m only saying the fact as stated in the Quran numerous times, I myself worl hard everyday to fight Satan, and it is obvious that many humans regardless what faith they follow has fallen to his tricks, no excuse for them though as Allah has given them the following

a brain
the plot was told
the messengers were sent
the warning was delivered
the warning was preserved

regarding Rashad Khalifa, well I read all his work more than once, I also watched all his videos, bro this man is no messengers, he is a conman or another Dajjal, but as you can see how many humans fell under his tricks, this confirm what I told you about Satan

I hope you can see why the Quran doesn?t have an author's or "bunch of humans" names imprinted on the cover of the book.

the Author is written inside the book and that is very catching n its own merit because you normally read the author name once on the front, but with the Quran the Author kept saying that he is the Aithoor od this book many times inside the book

17106
Khalifa
A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.

Pickthal
And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.

Shakir
And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

"Progressive Muslims"
And a Quran that We have separated, so that you may read it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.

I'll reply to your other concerns in stages.

The verse you posted above have no merit for disputing that it is the true words of Allah or not, because clearly the words above are not by Allah rather by the authors you linked their names to it,

The verse above means one thing to me in Arabic, and if I translate it it will be simply, Allah is telling us that He deliberately revealed the Quran over long time so it is read slowly to the people and NOT overwhelmed, especially it is the last message

I will respond to your second comment later tonigt inshaallah

Peace be with you