Quran - The Word of God or Man.

unknownuser

Danish

you are missing the point that I raised before

if you write a book, then you will put your name on it, exactly as the bibles or any other human book

now please tell me why the human authors of the Quran didn't claim the glory of the Quran?

I need a rationle answer please

thanks

Salaam Ahmed,

Salam mate

In order to answer your concerns and for you to understand my perspectives, you too must confer rationally

sure bro, but you have to understand the following strong rationale

what is belief?

It is to belief in something that was unseen

Therefore and by using logic, to believe in something , that thing should be unseen,

For example if I see God then I don?t need to believe in His existence because I saw Him for real and consequently it is been confirmed not is not a belief any more, if you agree on this then we can continue our discussion, if you don?t agree then you have to refute it first

and not with closed-mindedness

I actually never been closed minded in my life

by insisting and deliberating that everything mentioned in the Quran are absolute GOD's Words

well, here we have a problem, firstly there is no one who claimed to have authored the Quran but Allah, therefore it has to be His unless someone comes in and say sorry I authored this book

for example if a group of people in a pub and someone find 100 bucks on the floor, then that guy acted honestly and shouted if any lost any money and how much, one person from that crowd came forward and stated that this money is his, NO ONE ELSE IN THE VICINITY CLAIMED THE SAME, therefore IT MUST BE HIS, unless another person comes in and say sorry this money is mine, if this happens then we have a bigf problem and no one will know who owns the money, the Quran is the exactly the same, NO ONE BUT ALLAH CLAIMED TO HAVE AITHORED THE BOOK AS WELL PROTECT IT, then logically speaking it must be His, we can also see a history of over 1400 years that the words been preserved therefore what we read in this book does not really sound silly rather it is becomes more evident that the Quran can?t be by any other than Allah, especially in over 1400 years no human claimed to be the author of the Quran

add to the above the belief in the unseen as a requirement to be a Muslim, then we have to believe that this book is as it claims, because we didnlt see Allah wrote this book, because if we did then the belief in it as a message from God is spoiled and does not make sense any more

it is all part of the belief my friend and you really sound like some atheists who only believe in matter

because it says so and that's it,

of course, this is part of the belief in the unseen as I explained

without proofs.

what proofs exactly?

For Allah to come and say that He authored this book?, well He did so in the Quran, but I guess you want to see Him for real saying that, well you don?t need the belief then bro, got it

That's a layman's approach.

bro forget the layman approach, there is only one approach for the Quran, which is believing it is the words of Allah that was delivered to Mohammad then following it

Now lets start with the following verses and then read ahead

8013-16
Khalifa
In honorable scriptures.
Exalted and pure.
(Written) by the hands of messengers.
Who are honorable and righteous.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
(Written) by the hands of scribes-
Honourable and Pious and Just.

Pickthal
On honoured leaves
Exalted, purified,
(Set down) by scribes
Noble and righteous.

Shakir
In honored books,
Exalted, purified,
In the hands of scribes
Noble, virtuous.

"Progressive Muslims"
In scripts which are honourable.
Raised and pure.
By the hands of revealed ones.
Honourable and righteous.

I guess you mean that everyone of the above translated the words differently?, well, thanks for that, that proves my point, because what you showed me above is the words of men not the words of Allah, sorry it does not look like the Arabic Quran to me

And here is what I wrote at the beginning of this thread in relations to above verses
?that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.

but you provided no proofs but a list or some English translations by a few men, bro your evidence can not be admissible, we are talking the real words which was in Arabic and we only have one copy of it and no man claimed to be written it, as you can see from you example above, you associated a man with every translation, why?, simply because they claimed to have done it, LOL bro, I hope you get my very valid and logical point

I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times.

fine and I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the Arabic Quran as the real words of Allah, humans can philosophise aas much as they want, but to be mystical and never link themselves to that great book, I guess they were stupid men not wise at all, there is no logical refute on why a book author hide him/herself

The Quran is clearly seen written with short, incomplete and repetitious sentences at many places.

that is you flawed impression really, firstly the short sentences is one of its great language miracle, where you get plenty of info with the least words possible, it is complete as far as the guidance and passing the test is concerned, but I will not read in how to make an omelette, the repetitions are also one of its great language miracle, the way you said it as if it is repeated with the exact words , while the repeated verses with exact words are very lil. Possibly less than 10 out of thousands, the other type of repetitions is the miraculous one because it repeats the story or the warning using different Arabic words while the meaning stays the same, this is great indeed, human book authors never do that.

From the above your three impressions about the Quran are unfounded, a bit misleading and inline that you lack the proper understanding to this important message, sorry

Besides, it came in stages over a span of time (see verses below), perhaps many years.

yeh about 23 years, but what is wrong with that?, the Quran actually lived with the prophet life, in fact the Quran is the real prophet Hadith and Sunnah, because in many incidents we see verses that was revealed to the prophet regarding a specific incident that happened during his time, also Allah told us in the Quran that He planned to reveal it slowly therefore the Author od the Quran didn?t lie to us rather told us the exact truth and that is what you expect from a Just God

This shows, mentioned in history books as well, that the words, phrases and sentences were actually written at various points on various materials (parchments, leaves, stones, wood, etc.) by several men, as and when the messages were dictated and then later collected, revamped and compiled into a book form.

But Allah told us that He will collect it, the protect it, I guess Allah will not come down here and collect then stand next to it protecting it bro, Allah causes the reasons and the reasons are executed by the humans without them being aware at all

This very book was then further re-arranged and processed by a set of attributed pronounceable words and verse/chapter numberings along with individual chapter titles, all of which are purely men?s works.

for me I see it as Allah made these people to work for that task without them knowing, very simple bro, Allah can do anything He wants, also in this life He always does it without spoiling the main test we all going through

Today, we witness a few versions of them, one of which is a re-mastered mathematical one, deemed as the most authentic and authored by yet another messenger named Rashad Khalifa, only to find out its continued complexness and ever twisting and mocking of just about every word in the entire Quran, that no man today can better understand than the other, and yet calling it GOD?s Words.

bro Satan is very clever and he took the oath to screw us all, only the winners who will be able to overcome him, this is true as the Quran told us, don?t please come and tell me this weak argument that I?m blaming Satan because I?m not, I?m only saying the fact as stated in the Quran numerous times, I myself worl hard everyday to fight Satan, and it is obvious that many humans regardless what faith they follow has fallen to his tricks, no excuse for them though as Allah has given them the following

a brain
the plot was told
the messengers were sent
the warning was delivered
the warning was preserved

regarding Rashad Khalifa, well I read all his work more than once, I also watched all his videos, bro this man is no messengers, he is a conman or another Dajjal, but as you can see how many humans fell under his tricks, this confirm what I told you about Satan

I hope you can see why the Quran doesn?t have an author's or "bunch of humans" names imprinted on the cover of the book.

the Author is written inside the book and that is very catching n its own merit because you normally read the author name once on the front, but with the Quran the Author kept saying that he is the Aithoor od this book many times inside the book

17106
Khalifa
A Quran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.

Yusuf Ali
(It is) a Qur'an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals We have revealed it by stages.

Pickthal
And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.

Shakir
And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may read it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

"Progressive Muslims"
And a Quran that We have separated, so that you may read it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.

I'll reply to your other concerns in stages.

The verse you posted above have no merit for disputing that it is the true words of Allah or not, because clearly the words above are not by Allah rather by the authors you linked their names to it,

The verse above means one thing to me in Arabic, and if I translate it it will be simply, Allah is telling us that He deliberately revealed the Quran over long time so it is read slowly to the people and NOT overwhelmed, especially it is the last message

I will respond to your second comment later tonigt inshaallah

Peace be with you

claurianta

This is something in the Arabic grammar and I could not see any confusion whatsoever, the Quran contains stories and Allah as an author chose to implement something called Balagha which include something called Iltifat and this technique is used intensively in the Quran and the Arabic language professionals were stunned by this high level of balagha

I will grant you this assertion. However, it does raise more questions to which I do not have an answer. What came first, balagha in Arabic literature, or the Qur'an? Is the concept of balagha something that was invented to explain the way the Koran is written?

Yes and this is very common in the Arabic and Hebrew languages, it is for honour and respect, the Queen of England always refer to herself as we

Again, what came first God using the plural to refer to himself (as you claim) or the usage of the structure in the semitic languages? If the scriptures are the earliest evidence of such a structure, is it not possible that the semitic peoples interpreted "we" wrongly as being God and not the angels, and therefore a new grammatic construct was born in the languages? As for finding it in other languages, I have no doubt that other civilization have gotten divine revelations in the same manner as the semitic Prophets.

sure the jews is a big target audience in the Quran, but you are missing the point actually, their numerous mentions in the Quran are due to the numerous prophets sent to them that the Quran mention them, in fact it seems to me that the jews are cursed in the Quran, I guess this can be a message of mercy to them so they wake up

The Quran audience is the whole world as it says about itself

I know that in general the whole world is the target audience. However, there are certain places where a specific target, like the Jews, is mentioned... and I think in this case the direct message is meant for that specific target, whereas the moral of the story is meant for the whole world.

I?m not sure about that, but you are right that there is Umm a Kitab up there and I believe the Quran is just a small part of it

The issue of we and I has lil significance in the language structure other than Balagha and its purpose is to show honor and respect

Allah is telling us that we should honour Him and that is part of worshipping Him

I think here is perhaps where we have a big fundamental difference in opinion, which perhaps stems from a different reading of 37. I read it to say that there are two parts to the Qur'an

Umm al Kitab - the immutable laws that do not change, that which God has promised will not change (when he promised to guard the book from any changes), which apply to all of humanity (all the universe actually)
the other/allegorical/ambiguous - stories to try to explain to the receiving people (the arabs) the good ways and the bad ways to follow the laws, and also supplementary, more specific laws in order to promote good governance among the receiving people, so that they would be inclined to follow the immutable laws of Umm al Kitab. It is useless to try to interpret these outside the context of the history, culture, beliefs, current events of the receiving people (the arabs in the case of the Qur'an). Thus the warning against trying to interpret in 37.

Thus, I will grant to you that it is very much possible that all of Umm al Kitab has not made its way to the Qur'an you and I hold in our hands, though I have not seen any evidence to support that assertion. However, given what I have outlined above, I will say that there are things in the Qur'an that you and I hold in our hands that are not in the Umm al Kitab, and I think 37 states that very clearly. So that brings us to the question of authorship. I have no doubt in my mind that God is the sole creator of the Umm al Kitab. However, could it perhaps be a task of the angels to take this book and transmit it to the different peoples of the world, in a manner which they can understand given their historical and cultural context (I'm not saying it is, but I don't think there is definite proof either way here).

It follows from this kind of logic that when revelations were given to other peoples through their respective messengers (as the Qur'an said had been done), they contained the same Umm al Kitab, as well as a lot of allegory/specificity that could only be correctly understood in the context in which they were received, a context which is nearly impossible to correctly reconstruct even a few centuries later. What is unfortunate is that the religions of the world have chosen to focus on their differences, that is the allegory and the specificity, instead of recognizing there all immutable laws that all of us have received, and that all our various rituals and specificities are local (which doesn't mean that they are bad or evil, but simply that they are tradition and not immutable laws).

Your problem is you can?t come to grip that these are the true words of our God, that is also part of the belief btw

You see, I put God so high that while I fully believe his authoship of the Umm al Kitab, I do question the premise that he wrote things about Muhammed's Uncle (1111) in his immutable laws. I think this is more like the angels working at God's service giving an example of someone who is not following the immutable laws.

impossible as the Quran was crystal clear in numerous locations that there is only one God named Allah, and He is the author of the Quran, in fact the Quran told us that the angels are ignorant in anything Allah didn?t teach them, i.e. there are many words the angels don?t know as stated in the Quran, yet to write a book of guidance and hide their identity, it does not add up bro

References please?

people can keep questioning as much as they wish, all the answers regarding God and faith is in the book though (only for the reasonable questions that does not conflict with the fact that we are setting a test) for example you can NOT ask, what Allah looks like?

Agreed... so now our task is to try and figure what is Umm al Kitab and what is not.

this only applies to the ones whose in hearts there is a perversity as 37 is telling us, 37 is also a warning to the believers not to chase the confusing verses meanings as it is only a test and Allah is the only entity that knows its meaning

Linking the quran verses, is a must for understanding the Quran and that is what it means by ?Fully detailed? and ?The Quran explains itself?

peace

Again, we are in agreement. However, I will add the following warning There are some things very engrained in all of us about what God is and what religion is, things that have been there since before we could read. We pick up the Qur'an with these prejudices, and we have to fight these prejudices hard and try to stick to what is in the Book and leave out what is simply not there. To do this, we have to ask hard questions that we thought we had all figured out, but we forgot to think about things like the way language develops and the direction of causality. These are unanswered questions that we like to hide under the rug because they are difficult to find answers to, if not impossible, because we simply don't have unbiased evidence of how exactly the semitic languages were constructed prior to the semitic Prophets. Just look at how the Qur'an has influenced the Arabic language. Many phrases that people use in totally non-religious contexts come directly from the Qur'an (for example, insha'llah). Is it such a huge jump in logic to say that grammatic constructs could have been formed the same way?

unknownuser

Thank you claurianta

i read it quickly and I do have a lot to say but please bear with me as I have to respond to danish second comment which I haven't read yet to be honest

cheers

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed,

Salam Danish

Sorry for the delay mate, been busy and sick at the same time

clearly it says the Quran was revealed on Mohammad, not a bunch of humans

The "bunch of humans" thingy has been elaborated in my last post.

bro, please tell me why they have hidden their identities? The ones who wote the gospels never did that neither any author of any book

also this means those authors are clear cut liars as well because they lied in the Quran and they said it is the words of Allah not their words inspired by Allah, many flaws can be discovered easily if we adapt your concept of these wise men who wrote the Quran

As far as "the Quran was revealed on Mohammad" by GOD goes, here's my 2p

Firstly, as I understand it, the word ?GOD? is purely a mystical/philosophical one for obvious reasons.

Dure but the mystery of this word will be defeated by the belief that I mentioned in my previous comment to you, i.e. the Belief in God will make the word God clear as light ?for the believers?

So if the word is a mystery to anyone, I have to say that this person never achieved the belief in God yet

Secondly, a ?revelation? is something revealing or make known to, for what is embedded in ones' mind by inspiration, thoughts, meditation, reflection and reasoning, by virtue of event/circumstance that one witnesses every moment of ones' life.

sorry? What was that bro

the Quran is simply the true words of guidance from our God to us, how He put it together, this is up to Him, I don?t really need the above explanation by you as it is damn confusing bro

Every human (including the blind), at various levels, have certain instincts born within them that reflect their lives in which they live. There?s no possible way to evaluate these perceptions to have been directed and reputed by GOD, but by evaluating, reasoning and weighing in, in what is profoundly measured by reality/nature in that moment of time and space by which we speak about as being ?inspired or revealed by GOD?.

sorry bro that is very confusing and is not for the average humans whom Allah send the guidance to, the question is simple bro

is it the true guidance from Allah as it says about itself or not?

If you say not, then I guess you have failed one important requirement in the Quran which is to believe in it as the words of Allah not the words of humans

clealy it says no humans can write something like it

Similar books have been written throughout history of mankind and the Quran itself mentions it as well. One just doesn't add up and look at it realistically, simply because in which they have been taught and bought up.

fine bro, my argument still stays that no human claimed to have written the Quran but only Allah did so, and if it is some sort of humans inspiration then over 1400 years who must have seen it changing according to more wise men who came into existence unless you want to tell me that the wise men were 1400 years ago and no more of them now?

it clearly warned mohammad of adding or modifing its content

Explained in previous post. Besides, just how does one know what has been added/modified or not and with what mindset can you state with affirmation, and not just because the verse says so?

if the Quran is the same for hundreds of years, and it says about itself that it will be protected by Allah, don?t you believe Allah when He said as such in His Quran?

I see what is confusing you is something in the Arabic Balagha called Iltifat, this is important to understand before you just judge it by sura 1 where it is talking from the believers perspective

The "believers perspective", exactly my point and as elaborated above in your first point.

then how about the zillions of verses that were spoken from Allah perspective, or you want to turn a blind eye on those and only take the ones that Allah authored it as from the believers perspective?

...and sura one is nothing but a lesson from Allah to teach us how to praise Him and ask for forgivness, that is whay we read it in ever salat and that is why the Bismellah is a verse in there

Does the Quran mention saying that one must recite sura 1 in every raka in salaat?

no it does not, but according to the history records about mohammad, the record seems reliable, and qualified by the Quran so I will follow that great teacher in it and I guess I can?t be questioned by God for doing as such rather rewarded, or do you think I will be questioned for that?

Besides, what is salaat as understood by you (as a ritual prayer) is totally out of question for me.

Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it

So where do we stand now and what has become of what you call "GOD's Words"?

of course the Quran is 500% Allah exact words, even 9128-129 are his words

peace be with you

ichephren

Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it

-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?

unknownuser

Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it

-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?

sure bro, give me a sec

peace

unknownuser

Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it

-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?

Peace ichephren

Mohammad mission was not only to deliver the Quran, but to explain/make clear to us "those things in which we differ", Salat is a perfect example bro

?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?

(64)

-> We can read above that the prophet mission was not just to deliver the Quran but to explain ? ? things that we may differ, a very strong argument against the hadith rejectors, you see it is very easy to use the Quran to qualify any hadith because we know that the prophet should deliver it then use it to guide humanity and explain to them things that they may differ. It is like the prophet said the verses of the Quran again in different ways for further explanation because the prophet was only talking by the Quran.

The bottom line is, because we have the preserved Quran we can use it easy to Qualify the hadith, ie, THE QURAN QUALIFIES THE HADITH and because the salat were mentioned numerous times in the Quran as well its reward then all the hadiths talking about salat is worth checking out according to 1664

Peace

ichephren

Peace,

?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?

This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.

claurianta

This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.

Barring any problems with the translation, this is exactly the same interpretation I had when I first saw this ayat, and it still is. The Qur'an is what should unite us.

unknownuser

Peace,

?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?

This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.

Peace mate

you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta

unknownuser

Peace,

?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?

This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.

peace sis

the Quran is not just about Jesus, in fact the message of Jesus is not for the belivers it is more for the christians

if you agree that humans don't know how we perform salat, i.e. confused about it, i.e. we differ about it, then 1664 futs perfectly

remember this sister, the Ta in LeTobain, refers to the prophet not to the Quran, if it was meant to be the Quran then IT HAS TO BE A Ya and the word becomes LeYobain, no one can refute this sister because it is part of the langugae basics

now why he knows salat better than us?, I guess because he was a prophet who was appointed by Allah

and finally please let me know what is your understanding to this

?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?
(The Quran ; 597)

thanks

claurianta

you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta

Though people are really going to scream at me for this one, I do have a comment to make on this point. The first copies of the Qur'an (such as the Tashkent copy) did not include the naqt diacritical marks nor the tashkeel short vowel markers. In fact, the naqt and tashkeel were not invented until after the first written Qur'ans were already some decades old (see for example http//answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#compare under "Diacritical Differences")

Therefore, as far as the original written copies are concerned, Letobain and Leyobain LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME (the difference between the t and the y being the two naqt points on top of the letter for t, and below the letter for y). Here, therefore, human error in writing in the naqt is very possible (though of course not certain), especially in a case like this where there is ambiguity as to which of the two it could be.

ichephren

Peace,

you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta

I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ. The ayah could have said that the quran explains, but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.

?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)

This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war, so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray. It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division. So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war, we should take it. Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message. You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.

unknownuser

Peace,

Peace

you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta

I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ.

sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."

and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?

The ayah could have said that the quran explains,

but it didn't

but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.

yeh it means to elaborate on the message, the message mentioned Salat a lot and the prophet elaborated on it a lot, and that is just one thing the prophet explained to us

?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)

This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,

Does the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?

so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray.

Excuse me I didn't say it is about the Salat explicitly, the salat is one thing from the things the Mohammad "Atana Biha", i.e. Mohammad told us about it, i.e. Mohammad explained it in his own words, i.e. Mohammad elaborated on it, even he can make things haram as the verse said

It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division.

excuse me sister, there is no suras names that was revealed with the Quran

So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war,we should take it.

now you are adding your own words to the Quran verse, I never read "as spoils of war" in the arabic verse,

Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message.

did I say that the verse say whatever Mohammad does?, absolutely not, the verse clearly says whatever Mohammad told you to do then do it and whatever he prohibited, we should stop it

NO WARS MENTIONED

You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.

The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet

now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?

also do you believe Allah when He told us in the Quran that He will preserve it?

ammarb87

aoa guys .. i dont know what to believe .. sometimes I think that some of the rules in the Quran do not apply to our society these days but when you try to tell your parents that, they say Quran is for all times to come and you cant choose what you want to follow and what you dont! I mean my family is not that bad but sometimes too religious .. I mean they focus everything on religion. Like yesdterday my mum was like she doenst like girls dancing in front of guys. She said that whats the difference between whores and girls dancing in marriages etc. she said that girls are treated like sex objects these days but what about women who cover themselves up and do all the housework?! I wish I told her that you dont have to think negative about everything. Its just having fun etc etc. I dont know how to change thier thinking . I want them to become liberal in a way.
Oh did i tell you guys .. i received an email form this person containing hadiths. there was one hadith which said that women who wear tight clotheses and reveal their bodies will not see heaven for 500 years or smth .. hahah i was like oooooooooook !!!1
Anyways so these things compel me to think that Quran is a word of Man and not God. Why would God make life so tough for us to follow and not allow us to have any good fun ? Soirry if I got away from the topic a bit!

ichephren

aoa guys .. i dont know what to believe .. sometimes I think that some of the rules in the Quran do not apply to our society these days but when you try to tell your parents that, they say Quran is for all times to come and you cant choose what you want to follow and what you dont! I mean my family is not that bad but sometimes too religious .. I mean they focus everything on religion. Like yesdterday my mum was like she doenst like girls dancing in front of guys. She said that whats the difference between whores and girls dancing in marriages etc. she said that girls are treated like sex objects these days but what about women who cover themselves up and do all the housework?! I wish I told her that you dont have to think negative about everything. Its just having fun etc etc. I dont know how to change thier thinking . I want them to become liberal in a way.
Oh did i tell you guys .. i received an email form this person containing hadiths. there was one hadith which said that women who wear tight clotheses and reveal their bodies will not see heaven for 500 years or smth .. hahah i was like oooooooooook !!!1
Anyways so these things compel me to think that Quran is a word of Man and not God. Why would God make life so tough for us to follow and not allow us to have any good fun ? Soirry if I got away from the topic a bit!

Pretty much all that you said is tradition. If anything, you should be conflicted about why there is so much tradition and no Quran in their thinking. If hadith is false and unnerving, it does not mean that the Q is not the word of God...it means that the hadith are not the word of God and nothing more. So, do not feel as if your belief in the Quran must end simply b/c hadithists tell you that women will go to hell b/c of what they wear.

ichephren

Peace Ahmed,

sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."

and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?

If you can tell me where Muhammad got his extra-quranic information from then you can solve our problem. As long as there is none, then all the info must be the Quran. So, the verse can have only one meaning.

ichephren wrote
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,

Ahmed wroteDoes the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?

I am not referring to hadith. I am saying that the CONTEXT of the verse is spoils of war, so the meaning should be limited to the CONTEXT. You seem to ignore the fact that verses are not written without surrounding context to give them meaning. The entire sura(even if it has no name) is about going to war and dividing the spoils of war...so when the verse says that we should accept what Muhammad gives to us, it can only be talking about in times of war when we divide spoils of war.

The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet

now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?

When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with. If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran, and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.

claurianta

now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?

also do you believe Allah when He told us in the Quran that He will preserve it?

When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with. If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran, and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.

I am the one who talked about the typo, not ichphren. To answer AhmedBaghat, I will say that seeing as there were many people who had the Qur'an committed to memory, I would say that most of the Ta, Ba, Tha, and Ya are correctly marked. However, as can be seen from the differences between the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Qur'an, there is not always agreement on whether a letter is a Ta, Ba, Tha, or Ya. Therefore I would say that any time that changing one of those letters for another makes sense in the context, and would radically change the meaning as in this case (is it Muhammad or the Qur'an that is supposed to solve the differences between the people?), we need to be extremely carefully in placing full authority on the text that we have, given the way it was conserved and passed on in the early years. It's such an easy change to give more authority to the hadith, and would therefore be very tempting especially as it is so minor as to be difficult to trace.
I'm not saying that the revealed version of this verse is not with "LeTobain", and in that case I would apply the interpretation of ichephren that it was to be used by Muhammad to get rid of the differences among his people. This however, doesn't give Muhammad any interpretative authority, but only the authority to assert what is clearly stated in the Qur'an. However, the possibility remains that it was in fact revealed as "LeYobain", which seems to match better with the rest of the Qur'an whereby God sent it down to humanity as a guidance.

And as for God preserving the Qur'an... There are two possible interpretations of that ayat, one of which can easily be disproven.

The first interpretation is that the text of the Qur'an that we have today is totally unaltered from the form it was revealed to Muhammad. This can be disproven by the fact that even today we have the Hafs and Warsh versions, as well as a couple other less popular ones, which do indeed have minor differences, such as dots in different places, and indeed even additional letters as compared to other versions. Also, let us remember that when Uthman made his copies, he had all the other differing copies burned... therefore, there were even then differing copies of the Qur'an. Therefore this interpretation must be rejected in face of this proof.
The second interpretation is that the Qur'an (or rather Umm al Kitab) that God has up in heaven with him is a collection of immutable laws, and God has promised to us that he won't change these rules. He set up a set of rules when he created the universe and these will not change. So the fundamental laws of physics will not change (our understanding of them may, but the fundamental laws will not), the illegality of murder is not going to just change at some point. So basically the basic immutable laws that God has set up for his creation are always going to be the same and will not change... God has promised that he will protect them.
I have yet to see any kind of proof that God has up and changed any of these fundamental immutable laws, though he most certainly is capable of doing so. Therefore, this second interpretation remains a possible interpretation, whereas the one in (1) above must be rejected as not being possible.

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Peace sister

sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."

and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?

If you can tell me where Muhammad got his extra-quranic information from then you can solve our problem.

I myself can?t tell you really, I only believe what Allah said about his prophet

Allah clearly told us that He gave Mohammad Al Kitab wa Al Hikmah and also other things that we never knew but from Mohammad alone, one of thiose things that humans didn?t know is the Salat

A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and teaches you that which you did not know

(151)

-> Clear as light from 2152, Allah sent His prophet to do the followings

? ?, i.e. ? rehearsing to you Our Signs?
? ?, i.e. ? and sanctifying you?
? ?, i.e. ? and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom?, obviously we can see that scriptures is something else other than wisdom and both should be instructing to us by the prophet, this can cover the Salat clearly but if is not enough for you then point 4 will knock it to bed
? ?, i.e. ? and teaches you that which you did not know?, this is a killer of an argument, Allah is telling us clearly that the prophet should teach us what we don?t know, these teaching is something else other than the scripture and wisdom, as those two were also mentioned earlier, now how to perform salat should be covered under what we don?t know as well it is not in the scripture neither it is part of any wisdom, I rest my case regardung this point sister

As long as there is none, then all the info must be the Quran. So, the verse can have only one meaning.

I?m not really sure sister where you got this rule from?, is it from the Quran?

But I showed you above that Allah clearly stated that the prophet should teach us things that we never knew and those things are not part of the scripture neither it is wisdom, just a mere how to pray

How he knew it ?, well if he was a messenger of Allah, i.e. appointed by Allah, i.e. Allah communicated with him by whatever mean, then this is enough to conclude that the prophet great teaching and wisdom came form Allah, verse 2151 clearly says ? ?, which means ?Allah sent him?, now no one will send anyone to deliver a message unless there is a message given by that one who chose a messenger to action it, Allah in 2151 is telling us the messge sent with Mohammad consisted of 4 main parts as follow

?rehearsing to us Allah Signs?
?sanctifying us?
?instructing us in Scripture and Wisdom?
?and teaches us that which we did not know?

ichephren wrote
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,

Ahmed wroteDoes the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?

I am not referring to hadith. I am saying that the CONTEXT of the verse is spoils of war, so the meaning should be limited to the CONTEXT. You seem to ignore the fact that verses are not written without surrounding context to give them meaning. The entire sura(even if it has no name) is about going to war and dividing the spoils of war...so when the verse says that we should accept what Muhammad gives to us, it can only be talking about in times of war when we divide spoils of war.

sister, it does not matter what the entire sura is about unless it is a short sura, in effect all long suras can actually be considered short suras, unless you can provide hard core evidences that the verse ONLY MEANS WARS then what you say is conjecture

The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet

now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?

When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with.

no dodging here sister, you are suggesting that there is a typo, I didn?t say it is grammatically wrong, in either case Ta or Ya it will stay grammatically correct, you are the one that suggested that the dots may be under and was somehow put in top, any evidences please?

If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran,

I did provided the evidence and I have more evidences from the Quran

So far I provided 1664 and 2151 and you are in denial, fine that is your choice not mine, I only provide info based on the best knowledge I have that took me years to gain

and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.

I believe 2151 clearly said that Mohammad was sent to do 4 things, in fact 5 because teaching the scriptures is different to teaching the wisdom, one of those 5 things the prophet was sent to do is to teach us what we don?t know and one of the things that we didn?t know is how to perform salat, we know about salat but we didn?t know how to perform it after Mohammad was sent,

salam

unknownuser

Here is another compelling Quran evidence sister ichephren, I have tens and tens of them, that is what you expect form someone who spent 25 years eating the Arabic Quran

And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy a party of them had certainly designed to bring you to perdition and they do not bring (aught) to perdition but their own souls, and they shall not harm you in any way, and Allah has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you what you did not know, and Allah's grace on you is very great.

(113)

-> Clear as light from 4113, Allah gave His prophet the followings favours

? ?, i.e. ? Allah has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom?
? ?, i.e. ? and He has taught you what you did not know?, see, Allah taught Mohammad what Mohammad didn?t know, obviously this is something else other the Scripture and the Wisdom because there were mentioned just before it.

no wonder the verse ended by saying the following about Mohammad ? ?, i.e. ?and Allah's grace on you is very great. "

Just for the record sister, I provided the following Quran evidences so far

1664, 2151 and 4113

Salam Sister