Quran - The Word of God or Man.
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
sure bro, give me a sec
peace
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Peace,
Salat is a connection to Allah done at any time we want, I chose to follow the great teacher ?mohammad? in it, better than thos e confused ones who don?t even how many times a day the connection should be established. The Quran clearly said to us that the salat is timed on us as well it said the prophet SHOULD EXPLAIN TO US what we differ and hence we differ in how many times we should establish the connection, I chose to comply with the Quran and listyen to the Explanation by the prophet, period, and you can?t beat it bro, only quran if you want to beat it-where does it say that the prophet should explain it to us? Could you please find the ayah?
Peace ichephren
Mohammad mission was not only to deliver the Quran, but to explain/make clear to us "those things in which we differ", Salat is a perfect example bro
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
(64)
-> We can read above that the prophet mission was not just to deliver the Quran but to explain ? ? things that we may differ, a very strong argument against the hadith rejectors, you see it is very easy to use the Quran to qualify any hadith because we know that the prophet should deliver it then use it to guide humanity and explain to them things that they may differ. It is like the prophet said the verses of the Quran again in different ways for further explanation because the prophet was only talking by the Quran.
The bottom line is, because we have the preserved Quran we can use it easy to Qualify the hadith, ie, THE QURAN QUALIFIES THE HADITH and because the salat were mentioned numerous times in the Quran as well its reward then all the hadiths talking about salat is worth checking out according to 1664
Peace
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
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This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
Barring any problems with the translation, this is exactly the same interpretation I had when I first saw this ayat, and it still is. The Qur'an is what should unite us.
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
Peace mate
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
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Peace,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
This to me means that God has sent down the Quran in order to explain those things that people of that time argued about. For example, was Jesus the savior? The Quran answers this and "solves" the other issues about which we disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with Muhammad telling us how to salat since it implies the sifting of random inaccurate histories, and it also implies that he received other guidance except for the Quran. Otherwise, why would he know better than the rest of us how to salat? And I am female, so you may address me as sis.
peace sis
the Quran is not just about Jesus, in fact the message of Jesus is not for the belivers it is more for the christians
if you agree that humans don't know how we perform salat, i.e. confused about it, i.e. we differ about it, then 1664 futs perfectly
remember this sister, the Ta in LeTobain, refers to the prophet not to the Quran, if it was meant to be the Quran then IT HAS TO BE A Ya and the word becomes LeYobain, no one can refute this sister because it is part of the langugae basics
now why he knows salat better than us?, I guess because he was a prophet who was appointed by Allah
and finally please let me know what is your understanding to this
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?
(The Quran ; 597)thanks
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you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
Though people are really going to scream at me for this one, I do have a comment to make on this point. The first copies of the Qur'an (such as the Tashkent copy) did not include the naqt diacritical marks nor the tashkeel short vowel markers. In fact, the naqt and tashkeel were not invented until after the first written Qur'ans were already some decades old (see for example http//answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#compare under "Diacritical Differences")
Therefore, as far as the original written copies are concerned, Letobain and Leyobain LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME (the difference between the t and the y being the two naqt points on top of the letter for t, and below the letter for y). Here, therefore, human error in writing in the naqt is very possible (though of course not certain), especially in a case like this where there is ambiguity as to which of the two it could be.
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Peace,
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ. The ayah could have said that the quran explains, but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war, so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray. It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division. So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war, we should take it. Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message. You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.
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Peace,
Peace
you missed the point totally really, the arabc word is clear "LeTobain" and the T in the word refers to Mohammad not to the Quran, if it was for the Quran it has to be "LeYobain", i.e. a Ya instead of a Ta
I did not miss the point. I read clearly that it was directed at Muhammad. However, the ayah says that, "And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." The ayah was directed to Muhammad b/c of his position as the communicator of the message. He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ.
sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."
and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?
The ayah could have said that the quran explains,
but it didn't
but I think that is the same as saying that it is for the messenger to explain since his explanation IS the message.
yeh it means to elaborate on the message, the message mentioned Salat a lot and the prophet elaborated on it a lot, and that is just one thing the prophet explained to us
?And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from that, And fear Allah; undoubtedly, the torment of Allah is severe?(The Quran ; 597)
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,
Does the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?
so it has nothing to do with Muhammad telling us how to pray.
Excuse me I didn't say it is about the Salat explicitly, the salat is one thing from the things the Mohammad "Atana Biha", i.e. Mohammad told us about it, i.e. Mohammad explained it in his own words, i.e. Mohammad elaborated on it, even he can make things haram as the verse said
It is within the sura called "the spoils of war" and its division.
excuse me sister, there is no suras names that was revealed with the Quran
So, whatever the prophet give us as spoils of war,we should take it.
now you are adding your own words to the Quran verse, I never read "as spoils of war" in the arabic verse,
Do not construe this to be a larger all consuming rule that whatever Muhammad does we should do since his role as a messenger is clearly confined to the message.
did I say that the verse say whatever Mohammad does?, absolutely not, the verse clearly says whatever Mohammad told you to do then do it and whatever he prohibited, we should stop it
NO WARS MENTIONED
You did not answer the question of where he would be getting this special guidance from if he did have more guidance than was in the Quran.
The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet
now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?
also do you believe Allah when He told us in the Quran that He will preserve it?
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aoa guys .. i dont know what to believe .. sometimes I think that some of the rules in the Quran do not apply to our society these days but when you try to tell your parents that, they say Quran is for all times to come and you cant choose what you want to follow and what you dont! I mean my family is not that bad but sometimes too religious .. I mean they focus everything on religion. Like yesdterday my mum was like she doenst like girls dancing in front of guys. She said that whats the difference between whores and girls dancing in marriages etc. she said that girls are treated like sex objects these days but what about women who cover themselves up and do all the housework?! I wish I told her that you dont have to think negative about everything. Its just having fun etc etc. I dont know how to change thier thinking . I want them to become liberal in a way.
Oh did i tell you guys .. i received an email form this person containing hadiths. there was one hadith which said that women who wear tight clotheses and reveal their bodies will not see heaven for 500 years or smth .. hahah i was like oooooooooook !!!1
Anyways so these things compel me to think that Quran is a word of Man and not God. Why would God make life so tough for us to follow and not allow us to have any good fun ? Soirry if I got away from the topic a bit! -
aoa guys .. i dont know what to believe .. sometimes I think that some of the rules in the Quran do not apply to our society these days but when you try to tell your parents that, they say Quran is for all times to come and you cant choose what you want to follow and what you dont! I mean my family is not that bad but sometimes too religious .. I mean they focus everything on religion. Like yesdterday my mum was like she doenst like girls dancing in front of guys. She said that whats the difference between whores and girls dancing in marriages etc. she said that girls are treated like sex objects these days but what about women who cover themselves up and do all the housework?! I wish I told her that you dont have to think negative about everything. Its just having fun etc etc. I dont know how to change thier thinking . I want them to become liberal in a way.
Oh did i tell you guys .. i received an email form this person containing hadiths. there was one hadith which said that women who wear tight clotheses and reveal their bodies will not see heaven for 500 years or smth .. hahah i was like oooooooooook !!!1
Anyways so these things compel me to think that Quran is a word of Man and not God. Why would God make life so tough for us to follow and not allow us to have any good fun ? Soirry if I got away from the topic a bit!Pretty much all that you said is tradition. If anything, you should be conflicted about why there is so much tradition and no Quran in their thinking. If hadith is false and unnerving, it does not mean that the Q is not the word of God...it means that the hadith are not the word of God and nothing more. So, do not feel as if your belief in the Quran must end simply b/c hadithists tell you that women will go to hell b/c of what they wear.
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Peace Ahmed,
sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."
and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?
If you can tell me where Muhammad got his extra-quranic information from then you can solve our problem. As long as there is none, then all the info must be the Quran. So, the verse can have only one meaning.
ichephren wrote
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,Ahmed wroteDoes the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?
I am not referring to hadith. I am saying that the CONTEXT of the verse is spoils of war, so the meaning should be limited to the CONTEXT. You seem to ignore the fact that verses are not written without surrounding context to give them meaning. The entire sura(even if it has no name) is about going to war and dividing the spoils of war...so when the verse says that we should accept what Muhammad gives to us, it can only be talking about in times of war when we divide spoils of war.
The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet
now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?
When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with. If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran, and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.
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now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?
also do you believe Allah when He told us in the Quran that He will preserve it?
When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with. If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran, and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.
I am the one who talked about the typo, not ichphren. To answer AhmedBaghat, I will say that seeing as there were many people who had the Qur'an committed to memory, I would say that most of the Ta, Ba, Tha, and Ya are correctly marked. However, as can be seen from the differences between the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Qur'an, there is not always agreement on whether a letter is a Ta, Ba, Tha, or Ya. Therefore I would say that any time that changing one of those letters for another makes sense in the context, and would radically change the meaning as in this case (is it Muhammad or the Qur'an that is supposed to solve the differences between the people?), we need to be extremely carefully in placing full authority on the text that we have, given the way it was conserved and passed on in the early years. It's such an easy change to give more authority to the hadith, and would therefore be very tempting especially as it is so minor as to be difficult to trace.
I'm not saying that the revealed version of this verse is not with "LeTobain", and in that case I would apply the interpretation of ichephren that it was to be used by Muhammad to get rid of the differences among his people. This however, doesn't give Muhammad any interpretative authority, but only the authority to assert what is clearly stated in the Qur'an. However, the possibility remains that it was in fact revealed as "LeYobain", which seems to match better with the rest of the Qur'an whereby God sent it down to humanity as a guidance.And as for God preserving the Qur'an... There are two possible interpretations of that ayat, one of which can easily be disproven.
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The first interpretation is that the text of the Qur'an that we have today is totally unaltered from the form it was revealed to Muhammad. This can be disproven by the fact that even today we have the Hafs and Warsh versions, as well as a couple other less popular ones, which do indeed have minor differences, such as dots in different places, and indeed even additional letters as compared to other versions. Also, let us remember that when Uthman made his copies, he had all the other differing copies burned... therefore, there were even then differing copies of the Qur'an. Therefore this interpretation must be rejected in face of this proof.
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The second interpretation is that the Qur'an (or rather Umm al Kitab) that God has up in heaven with him is a collection of immutable laws, and God has promised to us that he won't change these rules. He set up a set of rules when he created the universe and these will not change. So the fundamental laws of physics will not change (our understanding of them may, but the fundamental laws will not), the illegality of murder is not going to just change at some point. So basically the basic immutable laws that God has set up for his creation are always going to be the same and will not change... God has promised that he will protect them.
I have yet to see any kind of proof that God has up and changed any of these fundamental immutable laws, though he most certainly is capable of doing so. Therefore, this second interpretation remains a possible interpretation, whereas the one in (1) above must be rejected as not being possible.
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace sister
sis, you said the following"He was the vessel through which the message was given. So, he is the only one who can relate to us the facts wherein we differ."
and that is exactly what I'm saying, I don't underastand how you repeate it then say it is someting else?
If you can tell me where Muhammad got his extra-quranic information from then you can solve our problem.
I myself can?t tell you really, I only believe what Allah said about his prophet
Allah clearly told us that He gave Mohammad Al Kitab wa Al Hikmah and also other things that we never knew but from Mohammad alone, one of thiose things that humans didn?t know is the Salat
A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and teaches you that which you did not know
(151)
-> Clear as light from 2152, Allah sent His prophet to do the followings
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? ?, i.e. ? rehearsing to you Our Signs?
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? ?, i.e. ? and sanctifying you?
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? ?, i.e. ? and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom?, obviously we can see that scriptures is something else other than wisdom and both should be instructing to us by the prophet, this can cover the Salat clearly but if is not enough for you then point 4 will knock it to bed
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? ?, i.e. ? and teaches you that which you did not know?, this is a killer of an argument, Allah is telling us clearly that the prophet should teach us what we don?t know, these teaching is something else other than the scripture and wisdom, as those two were also mentioned earlier, now how to perform salat should be covered under what we don?t know as well it is not in the scripture neither it is part of any wisdom, I rest my case regardung this point sister
As long as there is none, then all the info must be the Quran. So, the verse can have only one meaning.
I?m not really sure sister where you got this rule from?, is it from the Quran?
But I showed you above that Allah clearly stated that the prophet should teach us things that we never knew and those things are not part of the scripture neither it is wisdom, just a mere how to pray
How he knew it ?, well if he was a messenger of Allah, i.e. appointed by Allah, i.e. Allah communicated with him by whatever mean, then this is enough to conclude that the prophet great teaching and wisdom came form Allah, verse 2151 clearly says ? ?, which means ?Allah sent him?, now no one will send anyone to deliver a message unless there is a message given by that one who chose a messenger to action it, Allah in 2151 is telling us the messge sent with Mohammad consisted of 4 main parts as follow
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?rehearsing to us Allah Signs?
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?sanctifying us?
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?instructing us in Scripture and Wisdom?
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?and teaches us that which we did not know?
ichephren wrote
This ayah is talking stricly about the disbursement of spoils of war,Ahmed wroteDoes the verse say so?, absolutely not, unless you are referring to the hadith?
I am not referring to hadith. I am saying that the CONTEXT of the verse is spoils of war, so the meaning should be limited to the CONTEXT. You seem to ignore the fact that verses are not written without surrounding context to give them meaning. The entire sura(even if it has no name) is about going to war and dividing the spoils of war...so when the verse says that we should accept what Muhammad gives to us, it can only be talking about in times of war when we divide spoils of war.
sister, it does not matter what the entire sura is about unless it is a short sura, in effect all long suras can actually be considered short suras, unless you can provide hard core evidences that the verse ONLY MEANS WARS then what you say is conjecture
The Quran told us clearly that Mohammad was Dallan and Allah hadah, i.e. He was guided by Allah to prepare him for his role as a prophet
now there is something I would like to ask you, your refute for LeTobain was a typo, i.e. the dots should be under not above, while I expected more than that as a refute, it seems your refute will affect the whole Quran, i.e. how you know that every Ta, Ba, Tha and Ya is right?
When did I say that LeTobain was a typo? All I said was that your interpretation was wrong. I could care less about the grammar that you seem to be dodging the question with.
no dodging here sister, you are suggesting that there is a typo, I didn?t say it is grammatically wrong, in either case Ta or Ya it will stay grammatically correct, you are the one that suggested that the dots may be under and was somehow put in top, any evidences please?
If you believe that the Quran is complete, please point to me where GOD tells us that he gave Muhammad anything other than the Quran,
I did provided the evidence and I have more evidences from the Quran
So far I provided 1664 and 2151 and you are in denial, fine that is your choice not mine, I only provide info based on the best knowledge I have that took me years to gain
and you will may have a point. If there is nothing other than the Quran, then your interpretation is just flat out wrong.
I believe 2151 clearly said that Mohammad was sent to do 4 things, in fact 5 because teaching the scriptures is different to teaching the wisdom, one of those 5 things the prophet was sent to do is to teach us what we don?t know and one of the things that we didn?t know is how to perform salat, we know about salat but we didn?t know how to perform it after Mohammad was sent,
salam
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Here is another compelling Quran evidence sister ichephren, I have tens and tens of them, that is what you expect form someone who spent 25 years eating the Arabic Quran
And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy a party of them had certainly designed to bring you to perdition and they do not bring (aught) to perdition but their own souls, and they shall not harm you in any way, and Allah has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you what you did not know, and Allah's grace on you is very great.
(113)
-> Clear as light from 4113, Allah gave His prophet the followings favours
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? ?, i.e. ? Allah has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom?
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? ?, i.e. ? and He has taught you what you did not know?, see, Allah taught Mohammad what Mohammad didn?t know, obviously this is something else other the Scripture and the Wisdom because there were mentioned just before it.
no wonder the verse ended by saying the following about Mohammad ? ?, i.e. ?and Allah's grace on you is very great. "
Just for the record sister, I provided the following Quran evidences so far
1664, 2151 and 4113
Salam Sister
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Peace Ahmed
Am I correct in saying that you think that the Qur'an is not enough? Soy someone who has never heard of Muhammed or the Qur'an or anything related to the two. Then he is able to procure a Qur'an... is it sufficient guidance for him, or must he also know the tradition of Muhammed in order to follow properly the laws?
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Peace Ahmed
peace sister
Am I correct in saying that you think that the Qur'an is not enough?
it is enough for the guidance and slavation and not enough for the compulsory practises like salat, and as we were ordered by Allah that we should take it from the prophet, look at the quran alone muslims look how confused they are in knowing how to perform salat, so if the Quran is complete regarding the practices as you think, why those Quran alone muslims are so confused about Salat?
Soy someone who has never heard of Muhammed or the Qur'an or anything related to the two. Then he is able to procure a Qur'an... is it sufficient guidance for him, or must he also know the tradition of Muhammed in order to follow properly the laws?
I don't accept your word "tradition", but if you said it as teachings of Mohammad, then yes the teachings of Mmohammad is reuired to fill in the empty gaps that were delibertly left empty by Allah to see if we will follow the prophet as He told us or not, it is a test for us indeed
salam sister
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Peace Ahmed
peace sister
I am male... so please call me a brother... you seem to have some trouble with that on this thread, but no harm done.
I don't accept your word "tradition", but if you said it as teachings of Mohammad, then yes the teachings of Mmohammad is reuired to fill in the empty gaps that were delibertly left empty by Allah to see if we will follow the prophet as He told us or not, it is a test for us indeed
Here's a question for you... why is it, as the hadith say (and to be clear, I don't deny the authenticity of the entirety of the hadith; I do deny their religious authority), that Muhammad didn't want his own sayings to be written down? It doesn't make sense that if the hadith complete the empty gaps of the Qur'an, Muhammad would not have wanted them written down, or indeed would not have made people memorize them like the Qur'an. Why do everything to stop them being put down on paper if they are so important? Why didn't he make sure to initiate an oral tradition to pass on those saying that were important? Why didn't he make it clear when he was interpreting the Qur'an and when he was just giving a personal opinion on a non-religious matter, so that we could separate the important stuff from the non-important stuff? Did Muhammad ever say that his way is the ONLY way? Are there not other possible ways of fulfilling our duty? Does God not give us a wide latitude to chose a way, as long as it's within his given bounds? Is everyone not an individual who can best decide how to follow the Qur'an for himself?
Oh, and here's a clinger... it is a well known tradition in the middle east that people are judged and punished based on their religious law - law was not territorial, but rather attached to one's community (it is only after the fall of the Ottoman empire that this concept has started to diminish, but is still very much present for example in Lebanese family law). Is it not very possible that in certain cases that as ruler of the land, Muhammad was, due to the concept of religious freedom, deciding cases involving Jews or Christians based on Jewish or Christian law (and this would apply to the other religions as well)? And could it therefore not be possible that some of these decisions were taken out of context and recorded as hadith, and therefore you end up importing the laws of foreign religions into Islam?
So for me the hadith open up such a pandora's box that the only one's that can be considered to have religious value are those that mirror the Qur'an, in which case they are superfluous, as we can just refer to the Qur'an.
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Peace Ahmed
peace sister
I am male... so please call me a brother... you seem to have some trouble with that on this thread, but no harm done.
Sorry bro, I got mixed up with the other sister, I have an issue remembering nick names and somehoe yoyr names looked similar to me, sorry again
I don't accept your word "tradition", but if you said it as teachings of Mohammad, then yes the teachings of Mmohammad is reuired to fill in the empty gaps that were delibertly left empty by Allah to see if we will follow the prophet as He told us or not, it is a test for us indeed
Here's a question for you... why is it, as the hadith say (and to be clear, I don't deny the authenticity of the entirety of the hadith; I do deny their religious authority), that Muhammad didn't want his own sayings to be written down? It doesn't make sense that if the hadith complete the empty gaps of the Qur'an, Muhammad would not have wanted them written down, or indeed would not have made people memorize them like the Qur'an.
I agree with you and I thought about this issue a lot, I actually write something about it a few months back on another board so I will try to remember
Firstly the prophet prohibited recording his sayings, but he also encouraged talking about his teaching and this was in the same hadith, therefore it was allowed to transfer the teachings verbally but not in a documented manner, now this should be ok for a some years then it will start going down hell due to many factors, some of these factors may be, loss of memory for those hadith narrators and the corruption in the human nature influenced by satan to start transferring non sense verbally while it never said by the prophet, this problem aroused a very soon after the prophet died, and rumours of non sense and lies started to circulate around, therefore a decision must be taken at the time and a new rule was implemented which overwrite the prophet rule not to document his teachings, this is to protect the prophet reputation and consequently the whole Muslims reputations, however when the hadith was compiled about 300 years after the prophet, somehow they used weird sense to justify what they included in these books, they sure lacked experience in the sort of attacks that can come from these hadith, they knew that attacks happened because of it and that is why they decided to document which in effect will stop circulating the hadith verbally, what the Muslims now need to do 1400 years after the prophet and 1100 years after documenting the haidth is to take the same decision again and fine tune all these hadith by onlky keeping what is qualified by the Quran and the common sense and throwing the rest in the rubbish bin, this will surely put this matter to bed
Why do everything to stop them being put down on paper if they are so important?
I guess the hadith that we should know about that is very important are very little, possibly about the Salat and a few other practises, other than that it is nothing but teaching that anyone can follow or not, the whole saga can also be a trial from Allah to see if we will follow the prophet or not in the things he knew and we didn?t know and was not detailed in the Quranlike how to perform salat for example
Why didn't he make sure to initiate an oral tradition to pass on those saying that were important?
he did, in the same hadith he prohibited recording it on papers the sahaba asked him if they can talk verbally about him and he allowed that, do you know that hadith?
Why didn't he make it clear when he was interpreting the Qur'an and when he was just giving a personal opinion on a non-religious matter, so that we could separate the important stuff from the non-important stuff?
I think it was made clear by Allah, so if Allah has made it clear, why the prophet need to make it clear?, in fact the prophet made it clear in the hadith and the Quran he delivered, the hadith that should be followed must be qualified by the quran and the common sense, i.e. it must be of a religious natire, any non sense or sense that is not of a religious nature we don?t need to know about it, also Mohammad didn?t comment on the whole Quran, he hardly commented on 1/3 of the Quran, this makes sense because his job was not really to teach us the Quran it was to recite the Quran, teach us Hikmah and teach us things that is not detailed in the Quran like Salat ?mentioned but not detailed?, other things that are detailed, the prophet does not need to tell us anything about it
Did Muhammad ever say that his way is the ONLY way?
in the hadith yes he did, and the Quran evidences so far inclines that it is, because simply it was taught to him by Allah
Are there not other possible ways of fulfilling our duty?
Why I have to look fo any other ways if this is the way told to us in the Quran?
I don?t know bro, it sounds to me that it is the only complete way as the Quran told us in numerous locations
Does God not give us a wide latitude to chose a way, as long as it's within his given bounds?
I think this can be applied within very few issues but not all the issues, because simply He told us exactly what we need to do to prosper and be winners , possibly the freewill given can be considered a wide latitude to chose a way based on our choices but the safe one way was told to us
Is everyone not an individual who can best decide how to follow the Qur'an for himself?
if they have the knowledge of the language then fine they can do it but still Allah will be the only one to pass on the right knowledge regarding the meaning, for the others who don?t know the language, they must confirm with others who know the language and can be trusted
Oh, and here's a clinger... it is a well known tradition in the middle east that people are judged and punished based on their religious law - law was not territorial, but rather attached to one's community (it is only after the fall of the Ottoman empire that this concept has started to diminish, but is still very much present for example in Lebanese family law). Is it not very possible that in certain cases that as ruler of the land, Muhammad was, due to the concept of religious freedom, deciding cases involving Jews or Christians based on Jewish or Christian law (and this would apply to the other religions as well)? And could it therefore not be possible that some of these decisions were taken out of context and recorded as hadith, and therefore you end up importing the laws of foreign religions into Islam?
bro as I said very little of the existing hadith that can be accepted as an elaboration on some verses, all the rest can be thrown in the rubbish bin
So for me the hadith open up such a pandora's box that the only one's that can be considered to have religious value are those that mirror the Qur'an, in which case they are superfluous, as we can just refer to the Qur'an.
I agree, that is why the hadith that we should upheld as true teaching by mohammad should be very little and must be qualified by the Quran, and the common sense,
Peace bro