Jinns from the Quran
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Peace Hamza,
2)I believe the Quran means what it says and is not metaphors.
there is a verse in quran itself saying that part of its teaching is allegoric and passes through metaphors. do u really believe there is just one understanding possible ?
lk
Peace Elke,
True there were some things in the Quran similar to what Christians referr to as parables and prophetic symbolism,but the main text I do not believe it metaphors is what I mean.If the Quran says there is shaytan and that Jinns were created then thats what I accept,I dont try to make them into figments of my imagination...
Peace
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Peace be upon you Claurianta,
First, AYMAN great post!!
Claurianta
Question for you though - no doubt that angels exist?The word you are translating as "angel" is "malaika", which comes from the root M-L-K (control). Malaika are "controllers" or "forces of control", something of that nature. Thoughts are what controls outer manifestations. I have no doubt that thoughts exist.
Jibril was not a figment of Muhammads imagination, right?
I would say that Muhammad is a figment of all peoples imagination today because none have met him in order to verify his reality. MU-hammad just means "one who is exalted" or "exalts".
Second question - what about the devil - he's a jinn (1850)...
Iblis is the description of one who is ruled by emotions(shayteen)
so is he just a figment of the imagination too?
A figment sent to give you guidance about your own being and how it works.
The story about the angels prostrating themselves before Adam, and Satan refusing. So we had a bunch of real angels prostrating themselves and the figment of someone's imagination refusing to do so. Please clarify this with respect to your logic.
Adam is the intellect of man, the thoughts hear and obey mans intellect. Iblis is the charatcer type of one who is run by emotions(thoughts that are in movement, not at peace).
The point is, when emotions lead you, you follow the wrong path, emotions are made to SERVEthe intellect(adam), just as the story of Solomon shows us.
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Peace be upon you JHamza,
If the Quran says there is shaytan and that Jinns were created then thats what I accept,I dont try to make them into figments of my imagination...
So you dont care to verify what yuo believe in? You are only interested in a blind faith? This message is for those who reflect and reason, not just accept.
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Peace claurianta,
Yikes... you are right. Bloody Sunni ideology infiltrating my mind again. Sorry about that. Now I know.
It is OK have patience. It takes a while to get "disinfected".
Question for you though - no doubt that angels exist?
If you are talking about the mythical creatures that wear white robes and have halos over their heads then there is no doubt that they DON'T exist.
Jibril was not a figment of Muhammads imagination, right?
No, he wasn't. The Arabic word "mlk" means "controller" not "angel". So Jibril is a controller who brought down the message.
Second question - what about the devil - he's a jinn (1850)... so is he just a figment of the imagination too?
Our imagination is the result of "brainwaves". Brainwaves are a type of electromagnetic energy. Energy was created before humans. This is what Iblis is.
The story about the angels prostrating themselves before Adam, and Satan refusing. So we had a bunch of real angels prostrating themselves and the figment of someone's imagination refusing to do so. Please clarify this with respect to your logic.
You had the controllers agreeing to obey Adam but the fantasy not agreeing to obey him. Had the fantasy obeyed him then we would all be concentrating our creativity and imagination on serving The God and creating beneficial things instead of creating lies, crimes, and destructive things.
As an example, I am sure that everyone had somekind of a bad fantasy at some point, whether it is about getting rich quick or about someone from the opposite sex. Some people let those fantasies go uncontrolled and be exceeding in rebellion ("shaytan") so those fantasies drive them to corrupt in the earth and steal and rape. Others control those fantasies with truth and knowledge and make them obey us and we end up working hard (and smart) and getting married instead.
We can see that the great reading gives us advice that is directly relevant to our salvation. Whether you succeed in this low life and the hereafter is dependent on the above. It is not dependent on some ghosts no more than it is dependent on a jinni in a bottle.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman,
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "controller". Could you define it please?
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Peace JHamza,
Im going to reply to every question you had by simply saying,Human fantasies are apart of mankind and figments of imagination not seperate creatures created by GOD.Jinn were created as seperate beings from fire,men were created from clay..Just As I have quoted in my above post.
The great reading tells us that the "jinn" were created out of smokeless fire. In other words, energy. So the brainwaves (a kind of electromagnetic energy) that result in your fantasies was not created by The God? Who was it created by? Did you create it? Did humans even know that electromagnetic energy exists until recently?
If you or anyone else wishes to believe the Quran is all metaphor then thats you all,its not me..Next people will be saying "Well God is a metaphor for the over all conception of creativity and that all the prophets didnt really live etc etc etc...Besides the Quran states that they were created before mankind,so they cant be the fantasies of men..(Surah 15 26 and 27)
Yes, energy was created before humans. There is nothing amazing about that. This particular form of electromagnetic waves was supposed to obey us and help us accomplish both our purpose to serve The God. We know that it only obeys us when we control it. If we let it control us then it becomes exceeding in rebellion ("shaytan").
1)I believe the Quran is the Word of Allah-the GOD and that He really exists and that he gave it to Muhammad to deliver to mankind.
If you do, then you need to start seeing things from the prespective that The God doesn't create things in vain. The "jinn" have a good purpose. We all accomplish our purpose by obeying The God.
2)I believe the Quran means what it says and is not metaphors.
3)I believe Angels,Jinns,Iblis,and Prophets really exist.So what do you believe "jinn" are? Do you believe that they are ghosts as the traditional sectarians believe?
If so, then what do those ghosts personally have to do with you? Or are "jinn" always "someone else's problem" and the great reading talking about them is not relevant to you?
Why don't you believe that brainwaves (electromagnetic energy) is a creature of The God?
I am open to better interpretations.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta,
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "controller". Could you define it please?
If you look the word "mlk" (the singular of "malaika") in an arabic dictionary, you will see that it means owner/controller. So its plural means "controllers". This is the real meaning of the word, not angel/angels.
Peace,
Ayman
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jhamza wrote...
Let me reiterate for everyone....1)I believe the Quran is the Word of Allah-the GOD and that He really exists and that he gave it to Muhammad to deliver to mankind.
2)I believe the Quran means what it says and is not metaphors.
3)I believe Angels,Jinns,Iblis,and Prophets really exist.cool! and so far i have seen none been able to refute it except with a figment of their own imagination! -S
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I believe jinn are real creatures, I believe satan is real,I believe Angels(hebrew and greek names mean messengers)
This is all I have to say about it at them time..If others believe they are all energy/fantasies of people then thats them,even though these energies are believed to have been created before men..etc
Peace
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there are others who share the beliefs u stated above! and i must say u have done a pretty neat job with those verses and they are quite conclusive in their verdict of djinns and humans being seperate entities! -)
however the word malaika has its roots in 'mlk' so i dont think 'messenger' would be a good choice for translation (in arabic), though they might serve as messengers of god as and when god wills them to! -) 'mlk' has something to do with control/possessing/owning/dominion! however, in usage we differentiate between who is controlling/possessing etc! as such a queen is 'malika' in arabic and a king is 'malik'! likewise, in singular angel is 'malak' and plural 'malaika'!
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
I cant believe I missed that post brother. Excellent! I have responded more detailed in that thread.
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I believe jinn are real creatures, I believe satan is real,I believe Angels(hebrew and greek names mean messengers)
This is all I have to say about it at them time..If others believe they are all energy/fantasies of people then thats them,even though these energies are believed to have been created before men..etc
peace
thoughts were created before men weren't they?
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Peace,
there are others who share the beliefs u stated above! and i must say u have done a pretty neat job with those verses and they are quite conclusive in their verdict of djinns and humans being seperate entities! -)
however the word malaika has its roots in 'mlk' so i dont think 'messenger' would be a good choice for translation (in arabic), though they might serve as messengers of god as and when god wills them to! -) 'mlk' has something to do with control/possessing/owning/dominion! however, in usage we differentiate between who is controlling/possessing etc! as such a queen is 'malika' in arabic and a king is 'malik'! likewise, in singular angel is 'malak' and plural 'malaika'!
It is good that you know that "malaika" are essentially controllers and not some mythical creatures.
You say that "jinn" are separate entities. Please tell us what those are because I don't believe in ghosts.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Elena,
I believe jinn are real creatures, I believe satan is real,I believe Angels(hebrew and greek names mean messengers)
This is all I have to say about it at them time,what's the use/guidance you have found in believing that literally?
As far as I can see on this thread, JHamza doesn't seem to know what "jinn" are literally. I asked him what he thinks they are and he didn't answer.
Most people who claim to believe in "jinn" think that they are somekind of ghosts. Also, we are never asked in the great reading to believe in "jinn" for obvious reasons. In fact, those who believe in "jinn" are clearly misguided (3441).
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman, all,
My current view on the jinn issue is that they are a trait/behavior/intangible side of humans, or a certain group of humans. Because every single little thing between the heaven and the earth is created by Him, I believe also that even our imaginations are the result of something that He created in the first place. Thus, I have no problem accepting that jinns are not creatures in the same sense as humans are creatures (you know, two arms, two legs, probably have horns, etc).
And, I found the following ayats to be educating for me in regards with this jinn issue.
I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
First of all, Allah said that humans and jinns are to serve Him. Of course we all agree to that. But the following ayat explains something else
A month in early autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you can observe the season, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
Allah explicitly said that the quran was meant for the people. Why werent't the jinns included? I mean how are they suppose to serve Him appropriately if the quran, a guidance to all, was not even meant for them. Well, another ayat, as my understanding goes, explains this nicely
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Quran!"
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."So, it turns out that some of the jinns receive the guidance and actually believe in the quran and follow the true guidance.
This brings me to my current understanding that the quran was also meant for jinns. Thus, jinns must also be a subset of the people mention in 2185. As I understand it, people means us humans.
This leaves me with either jinns being a certain group of people who likes to be hidden from the common people, or that the jinns are our own traits. I have not made up my mind about this yet. Unlike the concept shaythan which I view as a human trait, and malaikat which are not angels in the English language (or my own language) sense, I am still weighing the best understanding for jinns.
So bro Ayman, may I ask you what make you so positive that the jinns are not a group of people whose existence is, most of the time, concealed from most people, but a human trait/intangible aspect (fantasies)? Many thanks in advance.
=adley=
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Peace Adley,
So bro Ayman, may I ask you what make you so positive that the jinns are not a group of people whose existence is, most of the time, concealed from most people, but a human trait/intangible aspect (fantasies)? Many thanks in advance.
How can they be concealed from most people? So who do they appear to?
Also, we are clearly told that those going to hell will be going there as a result of those exceeding in rebellion (shayateen) that are "linked to them"
- And we assign to them linked companions so they decorate for them what is between their hands (the present) and what is behind them (the past). And the saying is true on them in nations that passed before them from the fantasies and the humans that they are losers.
4336-38. And whoever withdraws from remembering The Almighty, we assign to him one who is exceeding in rebellion so he becomes linked to him. And they hinder from the path and deduce that they are guided. Until when he comes to us, he says "I wish the distance of the two sunrises was between you and me (i.e., you were on the other side of the earth), what a miserable one who is linked."
- And those who spend their wealth to show off and they don't trust in The God and the last day and whoever the one exceeding in rebellion is linked to, what a bad link.
We also know that the majority of people are going to hell. So most have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them. So how can we say that "jinn" are a different group of people concealed from most people when we know that most people have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them?
Also, what do you have to do with those "concealed group of people"? How are all the passages in the great reading talking about them relevant to you? Or are those passages irrelevant to most people since they are "concealed from most people"?
I think that we all need to look inside us and really think about this. Don't you want to be rich? Suppose you were above the law or there was no justice system to punish you, then will you steal $1 Million to be rich and make your fantasy come true? If you do then you have let your fantasy control you and it became exceeding in rebellion and thus your next fantasy will be about $10 Million. On the other hand, you can control your fantasy and make it obey you with the truth. Maybe this is not a relevant or good example. But each one of us should think of an example that is relevant to him or her and what fundamentally makes them do wrong. The answer will NEVER be a "concealed group of people" no more than it is "ghosts".
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman