Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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As I mentioned before the Arabic word ?Kharra? means drop down, scientifically speaking it would be under the effect of the gravity, and spiritually speaking it will be like totally declaring the submission to Allah by going down, 3215 is a metaphor and the sijood mentioned was not really the one we required to do to Allah, that sijood mentioned in 3215 is a metaphor on what the believers should do WHEN THEY ARE REMINDED WITH THE SIGNS OF ALLAH
Salam Ahmed,
I do not agree that it means drop down physically. Submission will be more meaningful word to describe. Am I correct?
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Peace to all,
Although there are some folks attached to a focal point/direction, which appear to be uniting/good for people. But if one look at it at the community/ummah level it is a desaster. For example, billions are going to hajj every year. Imagine if this wasted money can be channel into Africa how many lives it could save? God know how many people have died of hunger, diseases while I am writing this? This is just an example, but I hope we should have/form solutions with a global vision, as Allah put us here do put things in order so that the harmony within Allah's system could be balanced.
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Before continuing this nice discussions any further first
A PRAYER AND SOME SUTRAS AND SOME WISDOM
IN THE NAME OF UNLIMITED OCEAN OF COMPASSION AND MERCY
MY SINCERE ADMIRATION FOR THE GRAND WRITER OF THE AWESOME BOOKS OF CREATION.
THE ONE WHO WROTE OUT OF COMPASSION AND MERCY.
THE OWNER OF THAT MIGHTY MOMENT OF RECREATION, WHEN MY LIFE REPORT WILL BE PRESENTED AND MANIFESTED INTO A NEW EXISTENCE.
O LORD, WE SUBMIT TO BE THE PLAYERS OF YOUR GRAND SYMPHONY , AND FOLLOW YOUR HANDS.
SHOW US THE ROAD OF STRAIGHTNESS.
THE ROAD OF THOSE GRANTED GOD-CONSCIUOSENESS, SELF-CONSCIOUSENESS AND FORGIVENESS.
NOT THAT OF DARK-HEARTED, WORLD-WORSHIPERS AND SELF-WORSHIPERS.
MY SELF BOWS FOR YOUR GLORY AND MY SELF TOUCHES THE GROUND OF NOTHINGNESS.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT YOU GIVE AND FORGIVE OUR SELFISH SHORTCOMINGS.
THE SMELL OF THE ROSES OF COMPASSION COMES WHILE I AM STANDING IN FRONT OF THE DOORS OF YOUR GARDEN. THOSE DOORS WILL BE OPENED ONLY BY YOUR HAND AND WHEN YOU WILL.TO KNOW YOURSELF?
ONCE ONE IS ONE,
NO MORE, NO LESS
ERROR BEGINS WITH DUALITY;
UNITY KNOWS NO ERROR.
THE ROAD YOUR SELF MUST JOURNEY ON
LIES IN POLISHING THE MIRROR OF YOUR HEART.
IT IS NOT BY REBELLION AND DISCORD
THAT THE HEART?S MIRROR IS POLISHED FREE
OF THE RUST OF HYPOCRISY AND UNBELIEF
YOUR MIRROR IS POLISHED BY YOUR CERTITUDE ?
BY THE UNALLOYED PURITY OF YOUR FAITH.
BREAK FREE FROM THE CHAINS YOU HAVE FORGED ABOUT YOURSELF;
FOR YOU WILL BE FREE WHEN YOU ARE FREE OF CLAY.
THE BODY IS DARK ? THE HEART IS SHINING BRIGHT;
THE BODY IS MERE COMPOST ? THE HEART A BLOOMING GARDEN.
A RUBY, THERE, IS JUST A PIECE OF STONE
AND SPIRITUAL EXCELLENCE THE HEIGHT OF FOLLY.
SILENCE IS PRAISE ? HAVE DONE WITH SPEECH;
YOUR CHATTER WILL ONLY BRING YOU HARM AND SORROW ?
HAVE DONE!
BELIEF AND UNBELIEF
BOTH HAVE THEIR ORIGIN
IN YOUR HYPOCRITE?S HEART;
THE WAY IS ONLY LONG
BECAUSE YOU DELAY TO START ON IT
ONE SINGLE STEP
WOULD BRING YOU TO HIM
BECOME A SLAVE,
AND YOU WILL BE A KING.
THE DUMB FIND TONGUES,
WHEN THE SCENT OF LIFE REACHES THEM
FROM HIS SOUL.
LISTEN TRULY ? AND DON?T BE FOOLED ?
THIS IS NOT FOR FOOLS
ALL THESE DIFFERENT SHADES
BECOME ONE COLOR
IN THE JAR OF UNITY;
THE ROPE BECOMES SLENDER
WHEN REDUCED TO A SINGLE STRAND.
YOUR INTELLECT IS JUST A HOTCH-POTCH
OF GUESSWORK AND THOUGHT,
LIMPING OVER THE FACE OF THE EARTH;
WHEREVER THEY ARE, HE IS NOT;
THEY ARE CONTAINED WITHIN HIS CREATION.
MAN AND HIS REASON ARE JUST THE LATEST
RIPENING PLANTS IN HIS GARDEN.
WHATEVER YOU ASSERT ABOUT HIS NATURE
YOU ARE BOUND TO BE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH,
LIKE A BLIND MAN TRYING TO DESCRIBE
THE APPEARANCE OF HIS OWN MOTHER.
WHILE REASON IS STILL TRACKING DOWN THE SECRET,
YOU END YOUR QUEST ON THE OPEN FIELD OF LOVE.
THE PATH CONSISTS IN NEITHER WORDS NOR DEEDS
ONLY DESOLATION CAN COME FROM THESE,
AND NEVER ANY LASTING EDIFICE.
SWEETNESS AND LIFE ARE THE WORDS
OF THE MAN WHO TREADS THIS ROAD IN SILENCE;
WHEN HE SPEAKS IT IS NOT FROM IGNORANCE,
AND WHEN HE IS SILENT IT IS NOT FROM SLOTH.The only secret of attaining happiness is to learn how to appreciate our privileges in life. If we cultivate that sense of appreciation we shall be thankful, we shall be contented and every moment we shall offer our thanks to God, for His gifts are many and enormous. When we do not see them it is because our wants cover our eyes from seeing all with which we are blessed by Providence. No meditation, no study, nothing can help in that direction, except one thing, and that is to keep our eyes open to appreciate every little privilege in life, to admire every glimpse of beauty that comes before us, being thankful for every little love, kindness or affection shown to us by young or old, rich or poor, wise or foolish. In this way, continually developing the faculty of appreciating life and devoting it to thanksgiving, we arrive at a bliss which no words can explain, a bliss which is beyond imagination the bliss that we find ourselves having already entered the kingdom of God.
peace,
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Peace bm,
I think that perhaps the answer to your original question was a little lost in the middle of the discussion.
I am worried seeing people worshiping God towards Mecca/Kabba/cube/blackstone, particularly my parents and friends. When I want to clarify this I am treated as someone who has gone mad and basically someone who left Islam! My worry is will these people go to hell ? as according to the Reading if they die like this ? . I am trying my best but it makes me more worried as it is very very difficult to convince them. The reply is always that there are millions of Muslims doing 5 prayers towards Mecca and that I am the one who is bewitched by the Internet and after getting a PhD. I am confused and really sad by all this.
Those who go to heaven ultimately go there by their Lord's mercy (409). It is also true that they go there by the balance of the good deeds (78-9). However, those two things are interconnected because The God protects those who he has mercy on from bad deeds (409). On the other hand, those who have faith in the stone cube in Mecca think that their sins will be wiped out and they will return as if they are newborn and go to heaven as a result of spinning seven times around the cube and waving at, fondling, or kissing the Black Stone. They have thus setup the stone cube as a partner between them and The God. The God nullifies the deeds of those who setup partners with Him (for example 917) so it doesn't matter what seemingly good deeds they did.
So my suggestion to you is to show them the evidence from the message. One can see the truth shining through even in Sunni-influenced translations
002.148
YUSUFALI To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.Notice how YUSUFALI and PICKTHAL translate what we are facing as "goal" and NOT a physical direction in 2148 because in relation to facing a physical direction "striving together towards all that is good" or "vie with one another in good works" doesn't make any sense.
002.149
YUSUFALI From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL And whencesoever thou comest forth (for prayer, O Muhammad) turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship. Lo! IT is the Truth from thy Lord. Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely IT is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.Again even in those Sunni translations, one can see the truth shining through. We are clearly told in no uncertain terms that "al-masjid al-haram" is THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD not a physical place.
Now for those who The God guided facing a physical direction (the previous "qibla") is not a big deal (2143). Those are the ones who when shown the clear evidence from the great reading realize that a physical direction is not what is meant. You can see if it is a big deal or not if your parents are not too strict about the physical direction and for example, will pray even if they don't know which way to face.
As for those who love the Kaaba and fantasize about one day kissing and fondling the Black Stone, they will come up with every excuse to imagine to be facing it and set it up as a partner between them and The God. Their favorite excuse is that by doing so they are "obeying the order of Allah" when in fact they are unable to read the clear simple truth in the great reading. All they can do is copy and paste passages from the great reading and parrot the dogma they inherited from their forefathers. They use their inherited dogma to shed light on the great reading as opposed to using the great reading to shed light on everything. This is what differentiates the hypocrites from those who truly follow the message/messenger as we can empirically verify even here on this forum. Indeed a physical direction (the previous "qibla") is a big deal except for those who The God guided.
So in summary, show your parents and friends the message in 2142-150. The change in the "qibla" will differentiate between those who follow the message/messenger and those who turn on their heels.
If your parents are from those that The God guided then they will not see the previous physical "qibla" as a big deal and they will see the wisdom in setting as their goal the truth from their Lord all the times wherever they are and not just on the prayer mat or in the mosque. If they are not from those that The God guided then
- You do not guide whom you love but The God guides whom He wills and He is more knowledgeable of those who are guided.
If they strive against you to make you venerate a stone cube then just follow 298 and 3115.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace bm,
Thanks for your information to answer my original question. It is indeed very informative. I also realise that the discussion deviated slightly from the original question lol Though critical discussion produce evidence/answers.
Most of us faced this same issue. I myself coming from a Muslim Sunni community have asked the same questions. I used the approach that I posted and it worked with some but it didn't work with others. The ones that it worked with didn't think of the physical direction as a big deal to begin with. For example, they would just face anywhere if they weren't sure about the direction and they would certainly not think of their prayers being nullified if they didn't face a certain direction as the majority of sectarians think.
Peace,
Ayman
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As I mentioned before the Arabic word ?Kharra? means drop down, scientifically speaking it would be under the effect of the gravity, and spiritually speaking it will be like totally declaring the submission to Allah by going down, 3215 is a metaphor and the sijood mentioned was not really the one we required to do to Allah, that sijood mentioned in 3215 is a metaphor on what the believers should do WHEN THEY ARE REMINDED WITH THE SIGNS OF ALLAH
Salam Ahmed,
I do not agree that it means drop down physically. Submission will be more meaningful word to describe. Am I correct?
Salam Bro
I'm not going to say you are wrong, i will leave this to our God, but what i will say is this
Moses was already a submitter then when he saw the mountain crashing he Kharra on the ground, i.e. physically fell down
the believers on the other hand are also belivers already so when they are reminded with Allah message, the will kharro to the ground, but not because they lost consciousness but because of their submision status, so when they Kharro on the ground i guess it will be for doing sijood and not to have a rest for sure
salam
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Peace brother Ahmed,
Thank you for your post above and the qur'aanic verses. I need time to go through all of them and verify the information you provided. Meanwhile I have a comment on your post to brother bmbmm
Moses was already a submitter then when he saw the mountain crashing he Kharra on the ground, i.e. physically fell down
the believers on the other hand are also belivers already so when they are reminded with Allah message, the will kharro to the ground, but not because they lost consciousness but because of their submision status, so when they Kharro on the ground i guess it will be for doing sijood and not to have a rest for sure
In this, you are obviously referring to 3215; I thought you said that "kharra" in that verse was metaphorical, and not actually falling to the ground but here you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say "they will kharro to the ground" (as highlighted by me above in the quote) which makes it physical and not metaphorical. So which is it ? Is it metaphorical, in which case it is NOT ACTUALLY FALLING TO GROUND or is it physical ?
Some quick comments to your long post. You have failed to show how it is physically and scientifically possible to face al-masjid al-haram WHEREVER ONE IS, if it is a physical building. That would be a huge contradiction with Allah's words. You have also failed to provide any archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.
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Peace brother Ahmed,
Thank you for your post above and the qur'aanic verses. I need time to go through all of them and verify the information you provided. Meanwhile I have a comment on your post to brother bmbmm
Peace bro
take your time man, this is not a debate with you any way , this was info to the public
Moses was already a submitter then when he saw the mountain crashing he Kharra on the ground, i.e. physically fell down
the believers on the other hand are also belivers already so when they are reminded with Allah message, the will kharro to the ground, but not because they lost consciousness but because of their submision status, so when they Kharro on the ground i guess it will be for doing sijood and not to have a rest for sure
In this, you are obviously referring to 3215; I thought you said that "kharra" in that verse was metaphorical, and not actually falling to the ground but here you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say "they will kharro to the ground" (as highlighted by me above in the quote) which makes it physical and not metaphorical. So which is it ? Is it metaphorical, in which case it is NOT ACTUALLY FALLING TO GROUND or is it physical ?
this is a silly question bro, I explained the word kharra in details, and it means falling to the ground physically, but the conetext where it is used will tell us as a metaphor or phiscal, but what follow the woprd kharra next may not be a metaphor which is the sijood or any other action, i.e. the sijood can be both metaphorical and physical depending on the context, try it with yourslef, when you are reminded with Allah message, do you go to the ground in submission?, well i did both, not going to the ground and just reflect on it and sometimes going to the ground performing sijood in a submission status while reflecting on it in my sijood, see i don't know why you are making complicated on yourself?
Some quick comments to your long post. You have failed to show how it is physically and scientifically possible to face al-masjid al-haram WHEREVER ONE IS,
as i said it is an otder to face a direction, it is not to point to a specific point all at once, i careless to prove it scientifcally but you can follow the author schoolie science he provided that we will be po\inting to mars, this is also flawed by him, because everything is relative according to science as you know
when Allah said don't drink khamr, i don't need to prove it scietifically, i hear and obey, this is my choice according to the Quran, if you want to do something else fine so be it, my science is only the literal Quran verses, anything else is really BS for me even the best scientist in the world, as if being a scietist will make you a believer
if it is a physical building. That would be a huge contradiction with Allah's words.
it is a physical direction, and al masjid al harm is in that direction , now according to Eienstien, the gravity makes light bends, therefore for the light to go in a straight line is nothing but not true anyway unless there is no gravity at all in the universe, so I'm not going to get into that confusion trying to caculate when i point straight where it will point exactly, in fact if i keep walking following the direction to al masjid al haram I'm sure i will hit it head on, but I will not accuse Allah of such non sense, because Allah never suggested that we are doing it for the building, it was done according to the Quran as an order from Allah and the quran also told us that many people will try to make non sense out of it exactly as you do and your author is doing, but Allah told us to fear Him and not fear the people in the same very verse he told us about that direction, now after discovering that the earth is round you say this is non sense by Him, fine you can take your defence argument to him in the judgment day and tell him that i found i will be facing Mars so i didn't obey the order but I heard it though wink
You have also failed to provide any archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.
Oh yeh all these history records are fake, bloody oath as if all humanity conspired to fool themselves, this is a joke
it seems you need to read history but from authentic sources, it is not like I will find am ancient video tape about a building with a wrotten sign on it called al masjid al haram, then take it be a conclusive evidence, well my science is called the common sense and based on Allah words in His Quran, now I showed enough verses that proved beyond dounbt that it is a physical structure, it can't be anything else indeed, why not responding to all these verses that i'm posted and refute it using the Quran?, not science please?
because science said people come form a man and a woman, but Allah told us Adam, Adam's partner and Jesus didn't come from a man and a woman, so you don't accept it because Science could not prove while Allah said as such?
for those who deny that about thoise humans created via a science contradiction, I guess their god is science NOT ALLAH
do they took a creature "Science created by Allah from the first place" as their god, a typical case of making partners to Allah lol
my evidence is what Allah said in his quran and for 1400 years through all gerneration, this was confirmed
now if you ask me any question in the future, you have to know that i only use the Quran, i don't use any human made theories even if it is true, because at the end of the day, i will follow Allah in His quran and will not follow the ignornat and arrogant and possibly corrupt humans who challenge Him in his clear messages
it is just another style of R K BS
That was my last comment for this subject, but as you have seen I have not tackled the word Masjid Alone yet from the Quran and that is another long comment I'm preparing from the Quran for the public to see with their own eyes that according to the arabic Quran, Masjid, can only mean a physical place when sijood to Allah is performed
Peace
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peace
I just want to say that in the story (if) Moses did fall down physically, that doesn't mean there is no symbolic significance to his falling down or Moses himself as a person.
Peace
please be aware that i was explaining the word Kharra, and in Moses case it was due to him being unconcious not really to submit to Allah, but I agreed that it can be metaphrical in the case of Sijood, as in the verse about hearing Allah reminders that make believers Yakhorro to the ground performing sijood, but also it can be physical, as both cases happened to me and I know it happened to others who are close, it is circumstancial and depends on a lot of things, including humbling, my personal current affairs "good or bad" while my daily life takes its course
salam
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peace,
HE is always available , but our soul NOT.We are born every morning and die every night.
We offer our thankfullness for our existence and opportunities given to us during each day that we are reborn. By thanking GOD we will try to become most positive elements of creation to see good, create good and get aware of the blessing bestowed upon us AND REMIND US OF HIS PRESENCE AND HIS BLESSINGS.
We applogize for the missed opportunities to let go of our selfish desires and that we have failed to make a difference and all our other shortcomings DUE TO OUR SELFISHNESS OR UNAWARNESS.
This bowing down and prostration which goes through our hearts can be also synchronized with physical motion, if it helps one to intensify the mental process. I prefer personaly to pray just before sunrise and sunset in which the nature reveals its beauty.
How many times a day. In which form, how long and other apects of THE FORM ARE OF NO IMPORTANCE. Each Soul can experiment on them.
THE ESSENCE IS THE SUBMISSION OF SOUL.
THOSE CONFINDING THEMSELVES IN FORMS AND FIGHTING ON THEM ARE MISSING A LOT.peace,
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peace,
HE is always available , but our soul NOT.We are born every morning and die every night.
We offer our thankfullness for our existence and opportunities given to us during each day that we are reborn. By thanking GOD we will try to become most positive elements of creation to see good, create good and get aware of the blessing bestowed upon us AND REMIND US OF HIS PRESENCE AND HIS BLESSINGS.
We applogize for the missed opportunities to let go of our selfish desires and that we have failed to make a difference and all our other shortcomings DUE TO OUR SELFISHNESS OR UNAWARNESS.
This bowing down and prostration which goes through our hearts can be also synchronized with physical motion, if it helps one to intensify the mental process. I prefer personaly to pray just before sunrise and sunset in which the nature reveals its beauty.
How many times a day. In which form, how long and other apects of THE FORM ARE OF NO IMPORTANCE. Each Soul can experiment on them.
THE ESSENCE IS THE SUBMISSION OF SOUL.
THOSE CONFINDING THEMSELVES IN FORMS AND FIGHTING ON THEM ARE MISSING A LOT.peace,
very well said
thanks
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Salam,
I think its necessary to contemplate and reflect often, but not towards a direction or a physical structure, as this can develop into idol worship and waste of time and resources.
Peace
I wish you enlightment and guidance in your prayers which HE only can give us.
peace,
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Peace brother Ahmed, all,
I have started a new thread to discuss if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building according to the qur'aan and my article contains the replies to the qur'aanic evidence brought forth by brother Ahmed. The thread is at the following link
Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?"
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Peace brother Ahmed, all,
I have started a new thread to discuss if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building according to the qur'aan and my article contains the replies to the qur'aanic evidence brought forth by brother Ahmed. The thread is at the following link
Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?"
Thank you bro, i will have a look at it later today
cheers
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Salam,
Clearly the masjid-al-haram is not a physical structure. 1. The structure named as masjid-al-haram around the cube was not there. Its is so simple to understand that masjid-al-haram is not a structure It wasn't there! 2. Structures do not last forever. 3. There should be signs of Abrahim in masjid-al-haram However there ain't any there, if masjid-al-haram is turned into a structure. Please let me and the people know if there are any ) ?
Peace