Reincarnation
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Peace be upon you all,
I believe in reicarnation, key word is BELIEVE. I believe that when one dies, they continue to exist with the same mental condition they left with, hopefully it will be a peaceful mindstate.
I believe the verses being used to reject it can be read as the person wanting to go back to the life they just left, but the answer is no, they will be going to a new life where they will be repaid just what they earned. There are many lessons of life to learn.
Some even claim they can see past lives through the tool of meditation, but I have not verified that personally.
Why does the God always say "Remember?"
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Peace TAJ and very interesting ideas,
I can see how the story of Adam relates to reincarnation. For me, however there's too many other things in quran that point to a different direction altogether. But that is not dismiss the theory of reincarnation altogether, since I've never given it a chance or thought before. BTW TAJ, watch - Defending Your Life (Albert Brooks) and tell me what you think. )
It does not matter whether we remember our past lives or not..as that is not the main issue. The important thing is to know that if we are being under some unexpected difficulties that this is maybe because there is a lesson that we failed to learn in a previous time and that is why we have not qualify to heaven.. so Allah, because Allah is Ra7eem, is giving us yet another chance to learn the lesson and also to become more accepting and appreciative of whatever comes our way...once we reach that level then the gate of Heaven is wide open but not before that.. Those who are given so many chances yet fail to learn and appreciate over and over again...
In terms of learning, getting 'second' (and third) chances, becoming appreciative, etc... I believe that's what we have right now. D What I mean is, in a 'regular' life span of lets say even 50 years... there's second chances everyday of that life, there's learning experiences everyday, there's a chance to grow and excel to whatever that person's capability is, in whatever situation life throws at him or her. Now whether we do learn/grow from it, is another issue. On the other hand, I think that our learning experiences are not limited to this plane of existence, and for that matter, the learning experiences available here, although a wide range and variety, have a certain limitation.Just because we die and get resurrected, doesn't mean we stop learning. idea
I'd like to hear more on your latest thoughts.
Peace
PS Does "2 lives and 2 deaths" hold any clues here?
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I haved made my post a new topic, to discuss it.
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Salam Ahmed, All,
I haven't ever seen any Quranic evidence for re-incarnation.
neither me and i'm reading it for over 25 years in its original language lol , it must be big quran secret indeed
I have been reading Al Quran for as long as you have too, and up till this moment I would still find things in it that would stop me in my tracks! I am sure that must have happened to you too. The way Al Quran to me is that it is full of secrets that are not revealed unless the reader is at a certain level of awareness, understanding and responsibility of how to handle the 3ilm* that is about to be revealed to him/her as such revelation is because either he or she was painstakingly, earnestly looking for answers or because Allah has decided to reveal that 3ilm to this particular person for a particular reason, a reason that could be unknown yet to that person! I am not saying that I have reached such level but because of the glimpse I would be sometimes given while reading, I feel maybe if I reach such level then the 3ilm that will be revealed to me will be more. And there is no limit to that 3ilm...the word 3ilm in the following ayah is in mu6laq (endless/limitless) grammer form 3ilma(114
20114 High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."*The word '3ilm' is translated as Knowledge. I don't know of any English word that can match 3ilm as it is not just knowlege or information. It is a much higher/bigger thing, something that is given as a gift and requires giving... It is something that is more like Wa7ey Wahey. When somebody teaches you something some knowledge or information or study... You will always owe that one person, be in debt to him/her (which is fine) and you may repay that person in the form of money even, unlike the 3ilm. It sets you free but requires that you do much more than just know. In the case of 3ilm, you have to give/spread that 3ilm to the world, in the very right way... and so you will be in great debt too in a much higher scale if you fail to do that, so 3ilm is something that one should be very careful with...and that is why it is given to certain people..
but let's think basics for a moment, a baby is born knowing absolutely nothing, then lived till 60 years old, during these 60 years, that person learnt a lot, let's assume that perosn was Einestien for argument sake, then when he died, his very knowledgable soul started again from square one as another baby who knows nothing, very laughable indeed, and sure i can see the chain of knowledge in it lol lol
If Einestien was to be reincarnated, he will be reincarnated in a whole new life with completely different challenges depending on how he did in his previous one, and God only knows how he did then, such calculations is Allah's.
Kyle almost read my mind here
I believe the verses being used to reject it can be read as the person wanting to go back to the life they just left, but the answer is no, they will be going to a new life where they will be repaid just what they earned. There are many lessons of life to learn.I may add that at a particular point, that person (Einestien in your example) would have to realize that his present life explains his previous one, and even his future one depending on his actions in the present one..This realization makes the present life easier to live and will push us to do much better, if not to go straight to Heaven, at least for the hope of having a better future life!
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Salam Zein, All,
Peace TAJ and very interesting ideas,
I can see how the story of Adam relates to reincarnation. For me, however there's too many other things in quran that point to a different direction altogether. But that is not dismiss the theory of reincarnation altogether, since I've never given it a chance or thought before.
Me too.. It seems that there is a "vito" against this issue among main stream muslims like it is some sort of cult, and so our minds have a mental barrier. So if we go over some clues in Quran, we would not even notice. Few years ago, I was reading Al Quran all the time finishing it from cover to cover in few days and then start over.. and I remember that this topic was "popping up" through the ayat, forcing me to pause and take another look. I talked with a mentor and he was not only very agreeable but told me that Al Quran supports this. But since the topic was/is considered a cult thing, I was not encouraged to go further, especially when I think "ok when I die,, I don't care what happens.."
BTW TAJ, watch - Defending Your Life (Albert Brooks) and tell me what you think. )
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/
I will order it for sure! But is Albert Brooks still alive!?It does not matter whether we remember our past lives or not..as that is not the main issue. The important thing is to know that if we are being under some unexpected difficulties that this is maybe because there is a lesson that we failed to learn in a previous time and that is why we have not qualify to heaven.. so Allah, because Allah is Ra7eem, is giving us yet another chance to learn the lesson and also to become more accepting and appreciative of whatever comes our way...once we reach that level then the gate of Heaven is wide open but not before that.. Those who are given so many chances yet fail to learn and appreciate over and over again...
In terms of learning, getting 'second' (and third) chances, becoming appreciative, etc... I believe that's what we have right now. D What I mean is, in a 'regular' life span of lets say even 50 years... there's second chances everyday of that life, there's learning experiences everyday, there's a chance to grow and excel to whatever that person's capability is, in whatever situation life throws at him or her. Now whether we do learn/grow from it, is another issue. On the other hand, I think that our learning experiences are not limited to this plane of existence, and for that matter, the learning experiences available here, although a wide range and variety, have a certain limitation.Just because we die and get resurrected, doesn't mean we stop learning. idea
I'd like to hear more on your latest thoughts.
Peace
PS Does "2 lives and 2 deaths" hold any clues here?
There are things that one cannot fix in one life time, even though one has learned the lesson and even if one repents.. Adam did repent and to show that Allah has accepted his and her repentence,, Allah offered them another life, albeit a rough one.. filled with challenges and much more "dos and don'ts" as a way to teach them a good lesson and in the hope that they may do better this harder time,,
I don't see resurrection as reincarnation.. Our chances to improve ourselves, to learn and to do anything at all ends with resurrection, unlike reincarnation. Resurrection will take place with the end of life on earth.. when the clock of our moon and sun stops. Then those who have been given thousnad of chances yet would get worse, will only deserve hell..2 lives and 2 deaths is one big clue..
I need to go back to Quran...
Thanx Zein...
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Peace TAJ,
There are things that one cannot fix in one life time, even though one has learned the lesson and even if one repents..
I'm still convinced that we get ample chances especially if we get a "full" life span. We have to remember that the God does not burden us with situations heavier than we can bear. And also I believe that we're not asked for too much. We're here to learn, do some tests and get multiple chances to pass everyday. It's not a requisite to get a Phd or reach enlightenment or any other high worldly or spiritual level... just to be believing and do good. However we try hard to go against our natural peacful state to do otherwise. Anyway, all this doesn't dismiss reincarnation as I said earlier, but I feel that our time here is sufficient for any 'corrections' in our life. Remember, God is the Forgiver, Merciful. DBTW TAJ, watch - Defending Your Life (Albert Brooks) and tell me what you think.
http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/
I will order it for sure! But is Albert Brooks still alive!?
lol Yes, he still is! Unless that's another person reincarnated as Albert Brooks in a new comedy - Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World (2005) Oh, and Meryl Streep still lives too... as far as I know. wink
Just a side note, Defending your life is one of my all-time favourites! Don't forget to put in your review in the movie thread.Peace
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Peace All,
From a personal experience, I cannot say there is any evidence for reincarnation. However the door is left open for 2 reasons. The first being the mountains of anectdotal evidence of people, often children, remembering things that they simply could not know. The second is the unaccounted gap between death and judgement. Some call it purgatory, some say one is judged right after death. It seems to me, however, that the Qur'an is telling us that there is one final hour and all souls will be judged at that time. This leaves a lot of time between death and judgement.
From a reasonable standpoint, I can see how reincarnation would explain life's apparent disparity, where some people are born into much better circumstances than others through no choice of their own. This, to me, would explain why a child can be born into disease-infested poverty and die before puberty, experiencing almost no joy or love.
So, I voted yes, because I think it's possible, but I take no firm stand either way.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam All,
That is an Ayah that I would like to see your understanding about
(42
translation by Yusuf Ali
It is God that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.Check here for other translations
http//www.quranbrowser.com/Thank you
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23100 "So that I may do good in that which I have left behind." No, it is but a word he is speaking. And there is a barrier to prevent them from going back until the Day they are all resurrected.
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Salam,
23100 "So that I may do good in that which I have left behind." No, it is but a word he is speaking. And there is a barrier to prevent them from going back until the Day they are all resurrected.
(99) (100
Kallaa= No, is referring to who, in the translation you provided?
And does the word 'word' refers to what the person is saying or to the execution of Death.
Btw, 'Nay' is more correct to me than 'No'..The Death comes to the Nafs not to the Rooh.. But what about sleep. What has sleep got to do with the taking of nafs .. Can you tell me your understanding of Ayah?
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Salaam,
3942
God takes the souls when they die, and during their sleep. He then keeps those that have been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.Until death comes to one of them, he says "My Lord, send me back." "So that I may do good in that which I have left behind." No, it is but a word he is speaking. And there is a barrier to prevent them from going back until the Day they are all resurrected. 2399-100
He takes the soul during their sleep or when they die. And when they die, He keeps those souls. About the understanding of the people who sleep, i don't have a good answer yet. I need to do more research.
But to answer also, the 'word' the person is saying is"My Lord, send me back." So yes, this refers to the person not being send back to earth. And there are multiple verses in the Quran using those same terms. That there is only one life given.
Reincarnation is also a paradox, because you can't remember your 'past' life, and is by thus unneccesary to know. And even if you did remember, in how many ways would that effect you? Because it is about now, not then. The knowledge of the past life isn't given in your new life, and reincarnation is by thus made useless. Because in the old doctrine, you haver to try to brake away from this cycle. Reincarnation itself, is a dogma that isn't that old. Its about 2000 years old, and wasn't part of the older forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. It only spread because the school that proffesed this, was supported by a general, and so this dogma was forced on the conquered lands and got mixed with the religions. Later on this spread through the Roman empire and effected Jewish and Christian sects.
So what are trying to prove? Because the old doctrine can't be fitted into the Quranic laws, nowhere it is given to brake the cycle of re-births. Or have you found a new understanding of reincarnation? Remember, it only spread because of that general, if he hadn't, you would never had taken up this poll. I keep an open mind, so if you have something interresting, i'm listening. But history, science, theology and the Quran, speak against reincarnation.
The no, is referring to everybody reading the Quran. And nay or no, both are denials.
Peace
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Salam Arnold,
The man in the ayah said many words expressing his regret and not just one word.
'Kallaa' is one word and to my understanding it is a word said by Allah to dismiss any chance for such person and also to point that there is a 'Barzakh ' 'min warae'him' ..What does 'min warae'him' mean? Does it mean 'ahead of them there lies a Barzakh'.. or behind them there lies a 'Barzakh'? And remember that such person wants to go back to what he left.
But to answer also, the 'word' the person is saying is"My Lord, send me back." So yes, this refers to the person not being send back to earth. And there are multiple verses in the Quran using those same terms. That there is only one life given.
I wish that you post those other ayat that speak about this thing so that we can have a closer look.About remembering past lives... We don't have to remember. What we have to know is that the present circumstances can tell the individual, if he/she opens their mind and heart, of things that he/she might have done before, othrewise he/she would not have been here in a certain way..
Look at the example of giving life to the dead when prophet Ibrahim took four birds...
Another one when Allah told the COI to die then brought them to life again .. Do you consider this a resurrection? And notice the word of Allah 'Die'.. That is the word I am talking about. Death is the word of Allah. The man can have no say in it.So what are trying to prove? Because the old doctrine can't be fitted into the Quranic laws, nowhere it is given to brake the cycle of re-births. Or have you found a new understanding of reincarnation? Remember, it only spread because of that general, if he hadn't, you would never had taken up this poll. I keep an open mind, so if you have something interresting, i'm listening.
It is not about proving anything. I just want the people here to help me find out what the Quran really says about many many things. Does it speak about reincarnation? Maybe it does,, why not? What is the Barzakh? Is it a time off, a vacuum? Is it the cycles of life that one has to go through for 'refinement' maybe? I would like to know what people here think. It matters to me. I don't think that you should blame it on the general!
But history, science, theology and the Quran, speak against reincarnation.
I would like to know what the Quran says for the time being. The Quran speaks about the man who died for a hundred year then was brought back to life,, The Quran speaks about the cave people,, the COI,, the people that Jesus brought back to life by the permission of Allah... and it is not resurrection yet..
Peace
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Peace,
Good reply, yes, this is something we have to investigate. I just wanted to check the motives and background. I was always intruiged by the 'death' while sleeping. To bad my arabic is to bad to discuss the arabic uses of words surrounding this subject. But i can write down the history of reincarnation. And i'm not blaming the general, without him it wouldn't have spread like it had done. And then reincarnation maybe wouldn't ever be as known as it is now.
But i have researched a lot on the sciencitfical factors involving reincarnation. You've probably read the scientific approach topic i've written. And that summed together with history and my understanding of the Quran now, gives a negative answer on the old understanding of reincarnation.
Peace all
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Peace,
Good reply, yes, this is something we have to investigate. I just wanted to check the motives and background. I was always intruiged by the 'death' while sleeping. To bad my arabic is to bad to discuss the arabic uses of words surrounding this subject. But i can write down the history of reincarnation. And i'm not blaming the general, without him it wouldn't have spread like it had done. And then reincarnation maybe wouldn't ever be as known as it is now.
But i have researched a lot on the sciencitfical factors involving reincarnation. You've probably read the scientific approach topic i've written. And that summed together with history and my understanding of the Quran now, gives a negative answer on the old understanding of reincarnation.
Peace all
I thought that some of the information you posted were pointing towards reincarnation and not against it especially some of the links..
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No, then you've misunderstood it. It shows people don't get reborn on this world, and that children and people who remember past lives only tap into other people's memories that are left in the Quantum field. As for the recreation, you don't get recreated as something else, that is the reincarnation theory, that is what i'm trying to tell you. Reincarnation theory is that our present actions will determine our next rebirth on this wotld, and then we can end up as a human, animal or plant. That is the reincarnation theory. What i've told in my topic, is that we get recreated after our deaths, in a new universe, not on this earth And yes, our present actions will affect that new existence heavily.
But it doesn't support that we get born again on this world. We get recreated, in the 'same' bodies, the same design, and it will be the same conciousness. Only it will have the structure of your dominant features and behaviours you had on this earth.
So no, this is not reincarnation in the dogmatic sense, it coincides clearly with the Quranic resurrection, in a new universe, and yes i believe the universe will be created again after that, as the Quran also states. But reincarnation says you get reborn again on this world, and this scientific theory is against that.Peace
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Hello All,
I have previously argued that allowing souls to experience full range of human experiences is more intellectually satisfying idea. And because of the reality of eternal hell is so terrible, I feel that it is more "just" for a compassionate and loving God to allow individuals an infinite number of chances to redeem themselves before they "stand" before "God". But I know apart from a single reference in the Quran, the whole reincarnational path to redemption is not supported by the scripture.
I would like to believe in a "reincarnational" path to our redemption. But I still ask myself this question "Redemption" implies that I have commited a "crime" previously. But I have no memory of that "crime". I have no way of verifying this. And I do not believe in the Christian doctrine of "original sin" because I have no way of verifying this either. And also because I am nothing like my father. I would like to think that we are born innocent so no sins of the father affecting the destiny of the child. The child has its own path - so what is it that I am redeeming myself against? To answer that Hinduism came up with the idea of "Karmic" debt. Perhaps this is like an "Indianised" version of the "Original Sin". And if we are indeed redeeming against our "Karmic" debt so that when we have karmic debt of zero, we will be liberated and hence enlightenment. But again how did we acquire the Karmic debt in the first place? And if Karmic debt was zero to start with then there was no need for to be born was there?
I also think that Karmic Debt idea has been mis-used by human beings to justify the creation of the CASTE system which becomes "Divinely Sanctioned" Apartheid. And Apartheid is systematisation of Racism. The Indian Caste system still blights that lives of millions of people in the Indian Subcontinent including Muslims too. We could not accept "Bantustan" in South Africa on political terms - why would we accept CASTE System based on religious ground.
The idea that if we are born armless and legless it means that we have maimed other individuals in our past life sounds very "just" punishment - or is it? Many people in the west have done away with the "Eye For an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth" justice system. Therefore how can we say that "Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a tooth justice" system operates on a Cosmic Karmic Scale? Also there does not seem to be the element of "Forgiveness" in the "Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth" justice system, and Forgiveness plays an very important role in the whole redemption process.
I also find that it is kind of heartless to view someone and say this person is severly disabled because of his sins in the past life. But it is not is it? His or hers disability can be traced to fluke of genetics. The fault in the mindless DNA copy process in the individual germ cells. To say that we choose to born disabled so that we can experience disability sounds interesting idea. But would you choose to be born disabled? I feel that I don't have to born disabled to experience disability. I can explore disability through my imagination. Just like we can explore the full range of human pridicament through art and literature. But perhaps the imaginative experience is not same as the "real" experience. But still feel that we are more inclined to be more compassinate towards the disabled individuals when we ourselves feel that we have been blessed with good health...others perhaps might think the opposite...
I am begining to think that LIFE is not TEST anymore nor it is about working towards a Karmic Debt of zero. But rather I like to think LIFE as an EXPLORATION in the infinite possibility of Existence within the reality that many have called "God". To what end? So that we can comprehend the "infinity" of "God" and then? then we would become identical with the ONE. This known as "fanaa" in Sufi msyticism...Nirvana in Budhism etc... In that scenario everyone wishes to born normal in the world of matter to explore LIFE but how they are born is determined by the laws of nature.
So I have voted for reincarnation in the sense of Exploration of LIFE's infinite possibility of existence so that we come to know "God"...
Regards,
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The man in the ayah said many words expressing his regret and not just one word.
Peace Taj
I'm preparing a long quran comment rearding this subject biut it will take me some time
regarding the word kalimah
yes it means one word, however it can be used metaphorically to represent more than one word, the Quran used it as such many times
peace
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No, then you've misunderstood it. It shows people don't get reborn on this world, and that children and people who remember past lives only tap into other people's memories that are left in the Quantum field. As for the recreation, you don't get recreated as something else, that is the reincarnation theory, that is what i'm trying to tell you. Reincarnation theory is that our present actions will determine our next rebirth on this wotld, and then we can end up as a human, animal or plant. That is the reincarnation theory. What i've told in my topic, is that we get recreated after our deaths, in a new universe, not on this earth And yes, our present actions will affect that new existence heavily.
But it doesn't support that we get born again on this world. We get recreated, in the 'same' bodies, the same design, and it will be the same conciousness. Only it will have the structure of your dominant features and behaviours you had on this earth.
So no, this is not reincarnation in the dogmatic sense, it coincides clearly with the Quranic resurrection, in a new universe, and yes i believe the universe will be created again after that, as the Quran also states. But reincarnation says you get reborn again on this world, and this scientific theory is against that.Peace
Salam Arnold,
I only wish that you support what you write with Ayat Al Quran.. Thanx
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The man in the ayah said many words expressing his regret and not just one word.
Peace Taj
I'm preparing a long quran comment rearding this subject biut it will take me some time
regarding the word kalimah
yes it means one word, however it can be used metaphorically to represent more than one word, the Quran used it as such many times
peace
Salam Ahmed,,
I appreciate your input. From my understanding of Al Quran the word 'Kalimah' does not only mean word but also used to emphasize a big meaning a beginning or end, a final decision or a big statement...
I think there is a word in English that fits that meaning..
Easa (pbuh) is a word from Allah.
To say that Allah has begotten a son is one big dreadful word to come out of their mouths..I mean the word 'Kalimah' in the Quran is not used for expression of feelings.. Even those who said that Allah has begotten a son,, they say it as if it was Allah who said so..
The word 'Kalimah' in , to my understanding, does not belong to the person when he was expressing his regrets..Will be looking forward to your study.