Convincing proof of only 2 salat (dawn and dusk) !
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I also believe in two times for prayer, but I disagree with you in one point and have a question about another. When you say Quranic day are you talking abotu nahaar or yawm? Because your definition fits nahaar perfectly but not necessarily yawm.
Secondly,
you say that wusta in the Quran only means best or balanced. And I disagree with "Quran only" definitions because unless the Quran specifies that it only uses the word wustaa in a certain way it is not the authority on the Arabic language. I have just resigned to the fact that some people are going to interpret that verse as 'Middle Prayer.' even though no middle prayer was mentioned before and Asalaatul-wustaa if interpreted as 'The middle prayer' by grammar implies that this Salaat was already mentioned when it was not. Understanding it as the best prayer is the most logical but I don't expect everyone to see that and I have resigned to the fact that some people WILL JUST see middle prayer. So if they want to pray 3, let them, there is nothing wrong with praying, at any time.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God
AAalaalssalawati refers to more than 2 salats....it doesnt say "Preserve the Salats and keep the salats(plural) balanced"...and it doesnt make since to say"Preserve the salats and the best/balanced salat"...It doesnt make since linguistically..because.."and the best/balanced salat" only refers to 1 salat not all.So this would leave people confused over which one its referring to..
Middle makes the most since..it could just as easly be translated
"Preserve the salats,and the salat nearest the center,and devote yourselves totally to GOD" emphasizing that the middle one is most likely to be interupted by day to day affairs.PLUS everyone leaves out the fact that al-wusta means nearest the center..
nearst the centrehttp//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sentence=middle
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Wa in Arabic has alot of meanings and can go in places in Arabic and make sense where it would make no sense in English. Wa doesn't just mean 'and' it can also be used as a clarifier like 'that is' or it just won't translate because its more like a coma. I've seen 'wa' used in crazy, crazy ways in Arabic so if you go back to Arabic that argument won't hold.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaamun alaikum Anwar,
I also believe in two times for prayer, but I disagree with you in one point and have a question about another. When you say Quranic day are you talking abotu nahaar or yawm? Because your definition fits nahaar perfectly but not necessarily yawm.
In my understanding, in the Qur'aanic context, "yawm" means the 24 hour day and "nahaar" means daytime, and so qur'aanic "yawm" = qur'aanic daytime (nahaar) + qur'aanic nighttime.
you say that wusta in the Quran only means best or balanced. And I disagree with "Quran only" definitions because unless the Quran specifies that it only uses the word wustaa in a certain way it is not the authority on the Arabic language.
I think you misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that "wusta" CANNOT mean anything other than best/balanced in the Arabic language. I was trying to say that according to my understanding "wusta" and other words derived from the root WST IN THE QUR'AANIC CONTEXT always mean best/balanced.
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Salaamun alaikum JHamza,
Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God
AAalaalssalawati refers to more than 2 salats....it doesnt say "Preserve the Salats and keep the salats(plural) balanced"...and it doesnt make since to say"Preserve the salats and the best/balanced salat"...It doesnt make since linguistically..because.."and the best/balanced salat" only refers to 1 salat not all.So this would leave people confused over which one its referring to..
Middle makes the most since..it could just as easly be translated
"Preserve the salats,and the salat nearest the center,and devote yourselves totally to GOD" emphasizing that the middle one is most likely to be interupted by day to day affairs.PLUS everyone leaves out the fact that al-wusta means nearest the center..
nearst the centreYou are forgetting the fact that "al-wusta" does not ONLY mean "nearest the center" in Arabic language but CAN ALSO mean "best/balanced". What it means in the great reading has to be determined by the context in which it is used.
2238 Preserve/guard al-salawaat, and the salaat al-wusta, and stand devoutly for God.
In this context "salaat al-wusta" cannot be a separate salaat because all the salaats have already been addressed by "al-salawaat". Therefore, it cannot mean "the middle salaat" as a separate salaat. As brother Anwar pointed out that "wa" in Arabic can also be used as a clarifier of the preceding. The God wants us to preserve/guard all our salaats (all salaats of our life, which are obviously more than 2) and he wants us to preserve/guard the best/balanced prayer, meaning that He wants EACH of our salaats to be the best/balanced salaat.
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Salaamun alaikum Myr,
In this case of the Quranic day, it has been decided (and part of it because the Jews do it too when I remember the first article or version of it was posted) that the sunset is part of the night! while God the All-Mightgy clearly uses "layl" for night and "ghurub a shamss" for sunset, these are two different things and night can not mean sunset and vis versa.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never said that "ghurub al-shams" is part of qur'aanic night. According to the qur'aan, sunset is not part of night, but the night starts AFTER sunset.
First "duluk al-shams" when the sun's lower edge rubs the horizon BEFORE sunset, then "ghurub al-shams" which is the time from duluk al-shams to when the sun's upper edge touches the horizon, then "layl" which is AFTER sunset.
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Tanveer, I agree with you on all the other points you have made.
my understanding "wusta" and other words derived from the root WST IN THE QUR'AANIC CONTEXT always mean best/balanced.
I agree that it is possible that most cases in the Quran where wasata is used it might mean best/balanced. But I haven't studied every single case where the word is mentioned to make such an absolute statement. I'm am sure that I can find wasata somewhere in the Quran that can be interpreted as middle. If I were you I would not try to state something so absolute about the any root in the Quran to try to fix an Arabic meaning in the Quranic context and thereby give strenght to your argument. I think you argument is good enough without this absolute statement.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Brother bmbmm,
This is not about trying to fix one meaning to the word Salat. It is about embracing all of its meanings that make sense in any given context. Commitment might be one of its meanings but it is not its only meaning and prayer is just as valid(in most but not all contexts). In these passages that talk about the timing of salat, I don't think commitment is valid at all. Because our commitments are not just limited to certain times of the day, whatever those commitments may be.
In this context we are talking about the word's meaning as prayer. Thank you for your input and for trying to keep us open to the multiple meanings of the word but please make it relevant to the line of conversation here. Thanks.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Yoga is a commitment? What about work commitments, my social commitments etc., etc. We can have alot of commitments in our lives that doesn't mean that they are exactly Godly. Holding to your commitments (if they are good commitments) is important. But I haven't seen this meaning anywhere. I heard about it from Zlatan in an Arabic lexicon that was translated into Slavic. And I trust that he read it, but if he could I reallly would like if he could revise it and see if commitment isn't a secondary meaning to the slavic word that it is translated into.
Godbless,
Anwar -
QUR'AANIC DAY AND QUR'AANIC NIGHT
I think most of the confusion arises because of the misunderstanding of the Qur'aanic day and the Qur'aanic night. According to the Qur'aan, "day" starts at beginning of dawn and ends at complete darkness. So dawn and dusk are included in "day". Qur'aanic "night" starts at sunset and ends at sunrise. So "night" includes dawn and dusk also. The "day" and the "night" therefore overlap at dawn and dusk. Please see the article at the following link for the Qur'aanic proof of this
Salam,
I believe there are places on Earth where there is sometimes no days and sometimes no nights too. The rest of your post is very informative.
Peace
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Assalamu 3alaikum
The words "wasatan", "awsat" , "awsatuhum" and "wusta", all adjectives, were mentioned in the Qur'aan once each (four different verses)
Chapter 2 verse 143
Cahpter 5 verse 89
Chapter 68 verse 28
Chapter 2 verse 238and they mean by order just; average; best or most rational and the best prayer.
The word "wasatna" as verb came once in Chapter 100 verse 5 meaning to penetrate into the midst (of the enemy). This is the only context where this word means middle, but only when it came as verb, not adjective.
As for "alsalatul wusta" not being in the plural, this is because here "salat" is not a noun, but a verbal noun, and thus comes only in the singular and in the definite form (meaning praying not prayer).
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Salaamun alaikum sister Samia,
Thank you for sharing your understanding and welcome to the forum. We look forward to more posts from you.
Best regards,
Tanveer
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315 describes His servants as those who seek forgiveness in the late hours of the night ( if it really means late night instead of dawn).
also 5115 prohesises the rigteous, describing them as pious people who used to rarly sleep the whole night and as people who would seek forgiveness before dawn when they were alive.
There are two daily prayers that are obligatory. Outside of these one can pray any time of the day or night, even unceasenly. The late night additional prayer is the greatest in rank in the Quran.
This late night prayer / or to seek forgiveness late night is proof. As you can see from the verses above.
The practice of the great and pious people.
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2238 And dedicate the prayers;whithout once missing. And worship and pray to God Almighty apologetically.
But on the contrary there is a " middle" prayer ( late night repentance/prayer ), therefore what do we think is the best possible meaning ( " the prayer middle/inbetween" or " pray on the balanced/average/ regular,ect..." ) see below
315 describes His servants as those who seek forgiveness in the late hours of the night.
also 5115 prohesises the rigteous, describing them as pious people who used to rarly sleep the whole night and as people who would seek forgiveness before dawn when they were alive.
There are two daily prayers that are obligatory ( dawn and evening). Outside of these one can pray any time of the day or night, even unceasenly. The late night additional prayer is the greatest in rank in the Quran.
This late night prayer / or to seek forgiveness late night is proof. As you can see from the verses above.
The practice of the great and pious people.
Proofs
315 Say ?Shall I inform you of what is greater than all this? For those who believe in their Lord will be estates with rivers flowing beneath, in them they abide eternally, and with pure mates, and an acceptance from God. And God is watcher over the servants.?
The ones who say ?Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire.?
The patient, and the truthful, and the dutiful, and the givers, and the seekers of forgiveness in the late hours of the night.5115 The righteous are in paradises and springs.
Receiving what their Lord has bestowed to them, for they were before that pious.
They used to rarely sleep the whole night.
And before dawn, they would seek forgiveness.( Mark 135 The next morning Jesus awoke long before daybreak and went out alone into the wilderness to pray.)
should I say " the late night seek forgiveness "? Instead of prayer, when they mean the same thing? Prayer,commune,supplicate, implore, exc... all mean the same thing.
The reason i say the greatest in rank, because outside of the formal dawn and evening prayers, this late night prayer/ or to seek forgiveness late night is mentioned specifically, while one can pray at any time in the night and day.As additional prayers.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596959.msg175608#msg175608
First salat sunset ( Obligatory )
middle salat late night ( additional prayer ) 315, 5115
Last salat Dawn ( obligatory )
peace
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Peace everyone,
315 Say ?Shall I inform you of what is greater than all this? For those who believe in their Lord will be estates with rivers flowing beneath, in them they abide eternally, and with pure mates, and an acceptance from God. And God is watcher over the servants.?
316 The ones who say ?Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire.?
317 The patient, and the truthful, and the dutiful, and the givers, and the seekers of forgiveness in the late hours of the night.5115 The righteous are in paradises and springs.
5116 Receiving what their Lord has bestowed to them, for they were before that pious.
5117 They used to rarely sleep the whole night.
5118 And before dawn, they would seek forgiveness.The word "salat" is neither in these verses nor in their context in the original Arabic. Seeking forgiveness from God can be done without a timed salat.
