Convincing proof of only 2 salat (dawn and dusk) !

adley

Salaam Wakas,

While I currently also understand it as 2 times, but maybe this link will help you about 3-time shalat. You might need to check every link on that site to get the complete explanation.

=adley=

JHamza

Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena

2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God

AAalaalssalawati refers to more than 2 salats....it doesnt say "Preserve the Salats and keep the salats(plural) balanced"...and it doesnt make since to say"Preserve the salats and the best/balanced salat"...It doesnt make since linguistically..because.."and the best/balanced salat" only refers to 1 salat not all.So this would leave people confused over which one its referring to..

Middle makes the most since..it could just as easly be translated
"Preserve the salats,and the salat nearest the center,and devote yourselves totally to GOD" emphasizing that the middle one is most likely to be interupted by day to day affairs.

PLUS everyone leaves out the fact that al-wusta means nearest the center..
nearst the centre

http//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sentence=middle

progod

Wa in Arabic has alot of meanings and can go in places in Arabic and make sense where it would make no sense in English. Wa doesn't just mean 'and' it can also be used as a clarifier like 'that is' or it just won't translate because its more like a coma. I've seen 'wa' used in crazy, crazy ways in Arabic so if you go back to Arabic that argument won't hold.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum Anwar,

I also believe in two times for prayer, but I disagree with you in one point and have a question about another. When you say Quranic day are you talking abotu nahaar or yawm? Because your definition fits nahaar perfectly but not necessarily yawm.

In my understanding, in the Qur'aanic context, "yawm" means the 24 hour day and "nahaar" means daytime, and so qur'aanic "yawm" = qur'aanic daytime (nahaar) + qur'aanic nighttime.

you say that wusta in the Quran only means best or balanced. And I disagree with "Quran only" definitions because unless the Quran specifies that it only uses the word wustaa in a certain way it is not the authority on the Arabic language.

I think you misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that "wusta" CANNOT mean anything other than best/balanced in the Arabic language. I was trying to say that according to my understanding "wusta" and other words derived from the root WST IN THE QUR'AANIC CONTEXT always mean best/balanced.

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum JHamza,

Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena

2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God

AAalaalssalawati refers to more than 2 salats....it doesnt say "Preserve the Salats and keep the salats(plural) balanced"...and it doesnt make since to say"Preserve the salats and the best/balanced salat"...It doesnt make since linguistically..because.."and the best/balanced salat" only refers to 1 salat not all.So this would leave people confused over which one its referring to..

Middle makes the most since..it could just as easly be translated
"Preserve the salats,and the salat nearest the center,and devote yourselves totally to GOD" emphasizing that the middle one is most likely to be interupted by day to day affairs.

PLUS everyone leaves out the fact that al-wusta means nearest the center..
nearst the centre

You are forgetting the fact that "al-wusta" does not ONLY mean "nearest the center" in Arabic language but CAN ALSO mean "best/balanced". What it means in the great reading has to be determined by the context in which it is used.

2238 Preserve/guard al-salawaat, and the salaat al-wusta, and stand devoutly for God.

In this context "salaat al-wusta" cannot be a separate salaat because all the salaats have already been addressed by "al-salawaat". Therefore, it cannot mean "the middle salaat" as a separate salaat. As brother Anwar pointed out that "wa" in Arabic can also be used as a clarifier of the preceding. The God wants us to preserve/guard all our salaats (all salaats of our life, which are obviously more than 2) and he wants us to preserve/guard the best/balanced prayer, meaning that He wants EACH of our salaats to be the best/balanced salaat.

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum Myr,

In this case of the Quranic day, it has been decided (and part of it because the Jews do it too when I remember the first article or version of it was posted) that the sunset is part of the night! while God the All-Mightgy clearly uses "layl" for night and "ghurub a shamss" for sunset, these are two different things and night can not mean sunset and vis versa.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never said that "ghurub al-shams" is part of qur'aanic night. According to the qur'aan, sunset is not part of night, but the night starts AFTER sunset.

First "duluk al-shams" when the sun's lower edge rubs the horizon BEFORE sunset, then "ghurub al-shams" which is the time from duluk al-shams to when the sun's upper edge touches the horizon, then "layl" which is AFTER sunset.

progod

Tanveer, I agree with you on all the other points you have made.

my understanding "wusta" and other words derived from the root WST IN THE QUR'AANIC CONTEXT always mean best/balanced.

I agree that it is possible that most cases in the Quran where wasata is used it might mean best/balanced. But I haven't studied every single case where the word is mentioned to make such an absolute statement. I'm am sure that I can find wasata somewhere in the Quran that can be interpreted as middle. If I were you I would not try to state something so absolute about the any root in the Quran to try to fix an Arabic meaning in the Quranic context and thereby give strenght to your argument. I think you argument is good enough without this absolute statement.

Godbless,
Anwar

bmbmm

Some good posts here. I think the Sallat (commitment) is from the time we get up to the time we sleep. Or sometimes in the middle of the night if we have extra commitments.

Peace

progod

Brother bmbmm,

This is not about trying to fix one meaning to the word Salat. It is about embracing all of its meanings that make sense in any given context. Commitment might be one of its meanings but it is not its only meaning and prayer is just as valid(in most but not all contexts). In these passages that talk about the timing of salat, I don't think commitment is valid at all. Because our commitments are not just limited to certain times of the day, whatever those commitments may be.

In this context we are talking about the word's meaning as prayer. Thank you for your input and for trying to keep us open to the multiple meanings of the word but please make it relevant to the line of conversation here. Thanks.

Godbless,
Anwar

bmbmm

Salam progod.

I mean all the commitments, including contemplation, yoga, prayer etc. lol

progod

Yoga is a commitment? What about work commitments, my social commitments etc., etc. We can have alot of commitments in our lives that doesn't mean that they are exactly Godly. Holding to your commitments (if they are good commitments) is important. But I haven't seen this meaning anywhere. I heard about it from Zlatan in an Arabic lexicon that was translated into Slavic. And I trust that he read it, but if he could I reallly would like if he could revise it and see if commitment isn't a secondary meaning to the slavic word that it is translated into.

Godbless,
Anwar

bmbmm

QUR'AANIC DAY AND QUR'AANIC NIGHT

I think most of the confusion arises because of the misunderstanding of the Qur'aanic day and the Qur'aanic night. According to the Qur'aan, "day" starts at beginning of dawn and ends at complete darkness. So dawn and dusk are included in "day". Qur'aanic "night" starts at sunset and ends at sunrise. So "night" includes dawn and dusk also. The "day" and the "night" therefore overlap at dawn and dusk. Please see the article at the following link for the Qur'aanic proof of this

Salam,

I believe there are places on Earth where there is sometimes no days and sometimes no nights too. The rest of your post is very informative.

Peace

progod

This is not fully correct.

Nahaar = daylight
Yam= day, age, period of time

The Quranic day actually starts at sunrise and ends at sunrise.
The day includes the night and the time of daylight
And the daylight is just that, daylight.

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Assalamu 3alaikum

The words "wasatan", "awsat" , "awsatuhum" and "wusta", all adjectives, were mentioned in the Qur'aan once each (four different verses)

Chapter 2 verse 143
Cahpter 5 verse 89
Chapter 68 verse 28
Chapter 2 verse 238

and they mean by order just; average; best or most rational and the best prayer.

The word "wasatna" as verb came once in Chapter 100 verse 5 meaning to penetrate into the midst (of the enemy). This is the only context where this word means middle, but only when it came as verb, not adjective.

As for "alsalatul wusta" not being in the plural, this is because here "salat" is not a noun, but a verbal noun, and thus comes only in the singular and in the definite form (meaning praying not prayer).

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum sister Samia,

Thank you for sharing your understanding and welcome to the forum. We look forward to more posts from you.

Best regards,

Tanveer

anthonywallace

315 describes His servants as those who seek forgiveness in the late hours of the night ( if it really means late night instead of dawn).

also 5115 prohesises the rigteous, describing them as pious people who used to rarly sleep the whole night and as people who would seek forgiveness before dawn when they were alive.

There are two daily prayers that are obligatory. Outside of these one can pray any time of the day or night, even unceasenly. The late night additional prayer is the greatest in rank in the Quran.

This late night prayer / or to seek forgiveness late night is proof. As you can see from the verses above.

The practice of the great and pious people.

anthonywallace

2238 And dedicate the prayers;whithout once missing. And worship and pray to God Almighty apologetically.

But on the contrary there is a " middle" prayer ( late night repentance/prayer ), therefore what do we think is the best possible meaning ( " the prayer middle/inbetween" or " pray on the balanced/average/ regular,ect..." ) see below

315 describes His servants as those who seek forgiveness in the late hours of the night.

also 5115 prohesises the rigteous, describing them as pious people who used to rarly sleep the whole night and as people who would seek forgiveness before dawn when they were alive.

There are two daily prayers that are obligatory ( dawn and evening). Outside of these one can pray any time of the day or night, even unceasenly. The late night additional prayer is the greatest in rank in the Quran.

This late night prayer / or to seek forgiveness late night is proof. As you can see from the verses above.

The practice of the great and pious people.

Proofs
315 Say ?Shall I inform you of what is greater than all this? For those who believe in their Lord will be estates with rivers flowing beneath, in them they abide eternally, and with pure mates, and an acceptance from God. And God is watcher over the servants.?
The ones who say ?Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire.?
The patient, and the truthful, and the dutiful, and the givers, and the seekers of forgiveness in the late hours of the night.

5115 The righteous are in paradises and springs.
Receiving what their Lord has bestowed to them, for they were before that pious.
They used to rarely sleep the whole night.
And before dawn, they would seek forgiveness.

( Mark 135 The next morning Jesus awoke long before daybreak and went out alone into the wilderness to pray.)

should I say " the late night seek forgiveness "? Instead of prayer, when they mean the same thing? Prayer,commune,supplicate, implore, exc... all mean the same thing.

The reason i say the greatest in rank, because outside of the formal dawn and evening prayers, this late night prayer/ or to seek forgiveness late night is mentioned specifically, while one can pray at any time in the night and day.As additional prayers.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596959.msg175608#msg175608

First salat sunset ( Obligatory )

middle salat late night ( additional prayer ) 315, 5115

Last salat Dawn ( obligatory )

peace

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

315 Say ?Shall I inform you of what is greater than all this? For those who believe in their Lord will be estates with rivers flowing beneath, in them they abide eternally, and with pure mates, and an acceptance from God. And God is watcher over the servants.?
316 The ones who say ?Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire.?
317 The patient, and the truthful, and the dutiful, and the givers, and the seekers of forgiveness in the late hours of the night.

5115 The righteous are in paradises and springs.
5116 Receiving what their Lord has bestowed to them, for they were before that pious.
5117 They used to rarely sleep the whole night.
5118 And before dawn, they would seek forgiveness.

The word "salat" is neither in these verses nor in their context in the original Arabic. Seeking forgiveness from God can be done without a timed salat.

anthonywallace

Peace everyone,

315 Say ?Shall I inform you of what is greater than all this? For those who believe in their Lord will be estates with rivers flowing beneath, in them they abide eternally, and with pure mates, and an acceptance from God. And God is watcher over the servants.?
316 The ones who say ?Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire.?
317 The patient, and the truthful, and the dutiful, and the givers, and the seekers of forgiveness in the late hours of the night.

5115 The righteous are in paradises and springs.
5116 Receiving what their Lord has bestowed to them, for they were before that pious.
5117 They used to rarely sleep the whole night.
5118 And before dawn, they would seek forgiveness.

The word "salat" is neither in these verses nor in their context in the original Arabic. Seeking forgiveness from God can be done without a timed salat.

Peace,

How does one seek forgiveness? Is prayer not a form of this?
Do you think that " seeking" can mean more of an " intention" to seek forgiveness rather than actually " asking" for forgiveness? In other words, at late night do you think they " intend" to ask forgiveness at dawn, or did they acually "ask" for forgiveness at late night. And then pray dawn prayer?

exapmle David sought forgiveness, and then knelt down and repented. ( he sought ( intention) forgiveness first, and then he knelt down and repented.)

???

truthseeker11

Peace aw,

Seeking forgiveness is same as asking forgiveness. One can seek forgiveness during salat also but it can be done outside salat too. Just like zikr/remembrance of God can be done outside salat too

4103 So, when you are done making the salat, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are relieved, then uphold the salat. Indeed, the salat for the believers becomes a timed schedule.

Here, clearly remembrance can be done outside salat. When a verse mentions seeking forgiveness it does not mean it is mentioning salat. For example, when you are in school you can read during class, but reading can be done outside class too, so "reading" does not necessarily mean "class".

3135 And those who, if they commit any evil, or wrong themselves, they remember God and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except God? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.

Here, "remembering God and seeking forgiveness for sins" does not mean "establishing salat".

4106 And seek forgiveness from God; God is Forgiver, Merciful.
4110 And whoever does any evil, or wrongs himself, then seeks God?s forgiveness; he will find God Forgiving, Merciful.

Again, "seeking forgiveness from God" does not mean "establishing salat".

The following clearly proves that "seeking forgiveness from God" is not the same as "upholding/establishing salat"

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So read what is made easy of the Qur?an. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that go forth in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so read what you can of it. And uphold the salat and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God?s forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful.

As one can clearly see, "upholding salat" is mentioned separately from "seeking God's forgiveness".