Fate of the qur'aan rejecters
-
Peace adley and all. Adley,dont be too hard on yourself...just try to do the best you can,live morally and be open-minded. If you are concerned about your actions and faith that is a good indicator of genuine 'belief'.
Peace all. -
Peace tanvermed and ab. Gods words are not restricted to the arabic language or the quran...are they? Many people reject the immoral translations and interpretations.Many dont know or have access to the quran,yet they believe in god,a final day,and live morally...Isnt this enough? (see 262 and 569.)
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer,
Gods words are not restricted to the arabic language or the quran...are they? Many people reject the immoral translations and interpretations.Many dont know or have access to the quran,yet they believe in god,a final day,and live morally...Isnt this enough? (see 262 and 569.)
Not knowing or not having access to the qur'aan is not the same as denying or rejecting it. Knowing and having access to it and then rejecting or denying it will be a problem though.
The other books containing the so called revelations of The God other than the qur'aan have been heavily corrupted and distorted. However if any of those books contain any revelation that is authenticated and confirmed by the qur'aan, then we cannot deny that revelation either. But then it becomes redundant; if that revelation is in the qur'aan already, then we don't really need the other books.
-
The other books containing the so called revelations of The God other than the qur'aan have been heavily corrupted and distorted. However if any of those books contain any revelation that is authenticated and confirmed by the qur'aan, then we cannot deny that revelation either. But then it becomes redundant; if that revelation is in the qur'aan already, then we don't really need the other books.
right . we dont need any other book . because all will be judged by the Book which we call "Koran"
3669 And the earth will shine with the light of her Lord, and the Book will be laid open before them, and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and judgment will be given between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
peace.
-
Peace tanvermed and darbari. Tanvermed;how do we know the previous scriptures are corrupted,and how do we know the quran is not corrupted?
Also is there no other medium through which god talks to us?
Darbari;If we dont need any other book or knowledge,then how do we understand the quran?
If we understand the quran by the quran then why the confusion on different verses,and why the circular logic of proving something by itself?
Peace all. -
peace.
Darbari;
-
If we dont need any other book or knowledge,then how do we understand the quran?
-
If we understand the quran by the quran then why the confusion on different verses,
-
and why the circular logic of proving something by itself?
-
i meant that the Koran is like our "text book" . like in a school students study their text book and their exam results are also judged by their text book . thus we need to act according to the Koran , not according to any other book .
-
the confusion is because of our own shortcomings .
-
what was i proving ?!
peace.
-
-
Peace darbari. How can we act according to the whole quran when we dont even know what half of it actually means?(3;7 may give a clue.)
How do we know the quran is correct and not corrupted just by reading it? Just because a book says it will be protected,doesnt mean that it will. (Some jewish brothers say the torah is still in the original form. ) ) In other words where is the proof of what a verse means,and that the quran is free from corruption and contradiction? Where does the verification come from? The quran or god? If you say the quran, then the logic is circular and implies god only talks through the quran and no-where else.
Peace all. ps;most people of every faith say their book is worthy of following,the key is; proof/evidence/verification is needed...,some proof outside of the actual book would also be sensible.. -
peace.
Peace darbari. How can we act according to the whole quran when we dont even know what half of it actually means?(3;7 may give a clue.)
a simple answer we act according to the muhkamat ayat mentioned in 37. i.e the ayat containing commands .
How do we know the quran is correct and not corrupted just by reading it? Just because a book says it will be protected,doesnt mean that it will. (Some jewish brothers say the torah is still in the original form. ) In other words where is the proof of what a verse means,and that the quran is free from corruption and contradiction? Where does the verification come from? The quran or god? If you say the quran, then the logic is circular and implies god only talks through the quran and no-where else.
Peace all. ps;most people of every faith say their book is worthy of following,the key is; proof/evidence/verification is needed...,some proof outside of the actual book would also be sensible..if u sincerely want proof for the Koran , then this proof should be enough . any sincere person, after reading the Koran,can see that the it is from God . but the insincere people , they bring excuse after excuse to disbelieve in the Koran . so i wont be debating the divinity of the Koran much . i would like to see your comments on the proof though .
peace.
-
Peace darbari. So if i a person reads an immoral translation of the quran and then rejects it,then that person is insincere? So people who do not follow the quran(eg jews and christians.) are all insincere,even if they believe in god,the last day and do good deeds? your interpretation seems to contradict the following verses... 2;62 and 569. what do these verses mean then?
Peace all. -
peace.
Peace darbari. So if i a person reads an immoral translation of the quran and then rejects it,then that person is insincere?
a translation of the Koran is not the Koran itself . the Koran is arabic .
So people who do not follow the quran(eg jews and christians.) are all insincere,even if they believe in god,the last day and do good deeds? your interpretation seems to contradict the following verses... 2;62 and 569. what do these verses mean then?
believing in God doesnt mean believing in their version of God(that is idolatry. for example christians believe in their version of God. they cannot not believers in God according to the Koran) . to believe in God u need to believe in His Book . u cannot believe in God and disbelieve in the Koran at the same time .
peace.
-
-
Peace darbari. You are contradicting the verses of 2;62 and 5;69,and the permission to marry people of the book from before us? Can you please explain what these verses mean in your opinion? Some sunnis say you cant believe in god properly without the hadith...But you are saying you cant believe in god properly without the quran...See the similarity?
Peace all. -
Peace naxus. Thats right,people trying to scare,coerce or bully us into believing either in illusion or exactly what they believe, without proof or reason or thought for freedom of conscience.
Peace all. -
peace.
Peace darbari. You are contradicting the verses of 2;62 and 5;69,and the permission to marry people of the book from before us?
the "hadoo" and "nasaara" is not refering to the jews and christians . jews and christains are idolators .
"ahlul kitab/people of the Book" is not refering to the jews and christains either . we are the ones with the Book .
Can you please explain what these verses mean in your opinion? Some sunnis say you cant believe in god properly without the hadith...But you are saying you cant believe in god properly without the quran...See the similarity?
this is a flimsy argument . it is like saying "Koran is not the word of God since Quran has similarities(like the language) with that(any) man-made book" !!
EDITED
or a better example , "since that boy's looks are similar to my brother, he must also be my brother" !
peace.
-
Peace to all
Good points Enquirer I agree with your every post on this thread.This is again a common weapen use by most of the religions follow us or you will end up in hell.That is the weapen of fear to scare an indiviual from his free thoughts .Peace naxus. Thats right,people trying to scare,coerce or bully us into believing either in illusion or exactly what they believe, without proof or reason or thought for freedom of conscience.
Peace all.no fellas .
it is the unKoranic people coming to this Koranic forum ,and then trying to divert people from the Koran , instead of learning from the Koran . -
Peace enquirer,
I think you are confusing Allah's revelations meaning His revealed words with other signs of Allah like the universe, cosmic phenomenon, archeological signs etc. Of course there are other signs of Allah other than the qur'aan and we can learn from all of them. The topic here is limited only to Allah's revealed words.
I agree that the qur'aan is not the only book which contains Allah's revelations. The so called bible also does contain some of Allah's revelations, the ones that the qur'aan authenticates or confirms. The bible, however, also contains a vast amount of information that is NOT Allah's words. The only way one can differentiate is by comparing all of the biblical verses with those of the qur'aan, and if the qur'aan authenticates or confirms some biblical verse, then we should believe in that verse as Allah's revelation. My point is that since that biblical revelation is already present in the qur'aan, because the qur'aan is authenticating and confirming it, then we don't need the biblical revelation, as it will be redundant.
There is no contradiction with the verses of 262 and 569. The people mentioned in that verse other than the believers may know about the qur'aan or have access to it or they might not. If they did not have access to the qur'aan and did not know about it and did not read and understand it (like those people who were present before the revelation of the qur'aan) and still believed in Allah and the last day and did good deeds then they have nothing to fear. Not knowing or having access to the qur'aan does not mean that they are DENYING or REJECTING Allah's revelations. How can someone deny a revelation when they have not even read it, or know about it, or have access to it ?
If, however, those people do have access to the qur'aan, and they know about it, and they have read it, then they become the people of the book and then if they deny or reject Allah's revelations then there is severe punishment for them.
-
if u sincerely want proof for the Koran , then this proof should be enough . any sincere person, after reading the Koran,can see that the it is from God . but the insincere people , they bring excuse after excuse to disbelieve in the Koran . so i wont be debating the divinity of the Koran much . i would like to see your comments on the proof though .
If you believe in such flawed, misconstrued and pick-n-choose proof, then you fall into your own trap in believing nonsense. Below are his two representations as examples. In the first he discards the notion of the word ?many? and in the second he conveniently takes the word ?plenty? into consideration to make it look uneven/unequal, simply because the Quran mentions that good and evil are not the same, yet the number of times both words written being the same, as per his analysis. Other flawed reasoning can easily be fetched out.
If the entire Quran is exactly word-for-word GOD?s Words, then he mustn?t have any difficulty in explaining his analysis right from the very first word down till the end, consistently, coherently and accurately, applying exactly the same scenario to each and every word. I bet he can?t for he can only pick certain words of interest that only fits his criteria (that too haphazardly) and that?s it, viola, the entire Quran, word-for-word, automatically becomes GOD?s Words. Similar to the pathetic code-19, code-7, code-666, etc. scenarios, and now comes the latest version of ?mention? and ?use? of the words.
What is really miraculous is that people will go to leaps and bounds beyond recognition to discredit by crediting false claims attributed to the Quran. What an evil venture.
Also the statement ?If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many contradictions? and this ?If it contains many contradictions it came from other than God? (he brushes off by saying that the Quran did not say this). He forgets the word ?if? which plays an important role in understanding language, meaning and usage of the entire sentence.
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
The meaning of the statement (use of words) is clear. Considering the nature of the Book and its diverse topics and areas of discussion, if the Book had a human origin, it should be easy to find discrepancies in it. If we consider the "mention" of the words a different picture emerges. Let us see if the Koran passes its own falsification test on the criteria of "self reference" using the "mention" of words.
In the "mention" of the word contradictions (Ikhteelafun), the meaning that emerges is; if the book had a human origin it should contain many (Kathirun), Ikhteelafun (contradictions, the word). Many denotes more than one. To check how many times the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)" occurs in the Koran, we make use of the index of every Arabic word in the Koran. Due to the work of Faud Abd al Baqi, we possess such an index of the Koran today, titled, Al- Moojam al Mofahris.
Indeed the author of the Koran is aware of self-reference and the Koran passes the test of the "mention" of words as the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)," is just mentioned ONCE in the whole Koran in this particular verse. Not many (Kathirun) times, but only once.Some people band together the last two words of this verse Many (Kathirun) Contradictions (Ikhteelafun). Then they say see the Koran mentions the words Ikhteelafun Kathirun (Many Contradictions) and the verse says that if it came from other than God it would contain Ikhteelfun Kathirun (Many contradictions). This is a very smart move in trying to prove the Koran false but it?s not smart enough.
People who try to disprove the Koran by taking the last two words in conjunction are implying, in the mention of words, that if the Koran contains the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun (many contradictions)," it came from other than God. The statement in the Koran is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than God can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun," but so also can a book from God. Thus they fall into the famous Fallacy of the Converse in logic. Rain means wet streets but wet streets do not necessarily mean rain. Similarly, the Koran did not say, "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." It does not say that.It is because the qualifier for the verse, "Kathirun", i.e. "many" is taken out
"Say The evil (al-Khabees) and the good (at-Tayyab) are not alike?(Koran 5100)"
When we come to this particular statement in the Koran on dissimilarity, the items mentioned occur an equal number of times. The word "evil (al-Khabees)," is mentioned seven times (see page 226 of the index) and the word, "the good (at-Tayyab)," seven times also (see page 432). Did the Koran fail? According to our trend above, the negative (the evil) should be one less than the positive (the good). How come "the evil" is one more than what it should be?
The Koran fails only if we cut off the statement in the middle of the sentence. The verse continues
"Say The evil and the good are not alike; EVENTHOUGH the plenty of the evil amazes you. So be careful of your duty to God, O people that understand, so that you may SUCEED (Koran 5100)"
If we are careful, just like the above statement mentions, we notice that God joins together all the evil (al-Khabees)" in the use of words, i.e. all different forms of the word and not only "the evil (al-Khabees), in order to differentiate between evil and good. Thus "evil (al-Khabees)" is separated from "good (at-Tayyab)."
"?nor is the shadow (az-Zill) as the heat (al-Har or al-Haroor) (Koran 3522)"
The word used for "the shadow (az-Zill)," is mentioned in the Koran four times (see page 434 of the index) and the word "the heat (al-Har)," is mentioned three times. The statement (3522) which mentions that "the shadow" is not as "the heat," is the third time both words "az-Zill" and "al-har" are used in the Koran.No such thing is said in 3522. Perhaps he got mixed up with the wrong verse. Ah, the ?mistake?, the ?mention? and the ?use? of words as ?self-reference?.
but the insincere people , they bring excuse after excuse to disbelieve in the Koran
Yep, such as your "proof". Easy said than done. Here's one for your to ponder upon and explain why your alleged "Words of GOD" are contradictory
Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them, they say This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say This is from you. Say All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told?
The very next verse says
Whatever benefit comes to you, it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you, to mankind as an apostle; and Allah is sufficient as a witness. -
Peace all,
There are many proofs that the qur'aan is revealed by Allah. One of the proofs was referred to by brother darbaari. Some other proofs are existence of scientifically proven facts in the qur'aan which were discovered or proven by science hundreds of years after the revelation of the qur'aan and could not have been known by mankind at the time of revelation of the qur'aan. In fact some of those facts were opposite to what people thought to be true at that time. Please see the following links for articles on the scientific facts mentioned in the qur'aan which have been discovered just recently
http//asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/sci.htm
Another excellent reference is the book by Maurice Bucaille "The Bible, The Koran and Science".
Another proof is the absence of any contradictions in Allah's revelations.
482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions/discrepancies.
Part of that proof is the absence of any contradictions with the proven scientific facts ad part of it is the one referenced by brother darbaari at the following link
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm
Another proof is the inability of mankind to meet Allah's challenge of producing a chapter like the qur'aan. This challenge has been issued by Allah to mankind in the qur'aan itself
223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
1038 Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
Another proof is the literary quality of the qur'aan and the prophecies made in the qur'aan that have come true. Please see the following link for an excellent article by brother Wakas on this topic
http//think786.cjb.net/ (click on "Articles", then on "Does God exist" and then on "Introduction")
-
Peace all,
Yep, such as your "proof". Easy said than done. Here's one for your to ponder upon and explain why your alleged "Words of GOD" are contradictory
Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them, they say This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say This is from you. Say All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told?
The very next verse says
Whatever benefit comes to you, it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you, to mankind as an apostle; and Allah is sufficient as a witness.There is no contradiction. This has already been discussed in detail in the discussion at the following links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5446
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812
No such thing is said in 3522. Perhaps he got mixed up with the wrong verse. Ah, the ?mistake?, the ?mention? and the ?use? of words as ?self-reference?.
It is in 3521. That is just a typo in that article, the reasoning still stands.
In the first he discards the notion of the word ?many? and in the second he conveniently takes the word ?plenty? into consideration to make it look uneven/unequal, simply because the Quran mentions that good and evil are not the same, yet the number of times both words written being the same, as per his analysis. Other flawed reasoning can easily be fetched out.
The failure of someone to follow the logic does not mean that the qur'aan is flawed but that the ability of that person to understand the logic is flawed.
The verse saying that "If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions" does not imply that the qur'aan cannot contain the phrase "many contradictions". The statement in the qur'aan is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than Allah can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun", which does not mean that a book from Allah CANNOT contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" and is not the same as saying that if a book contains the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" it is not from Allah.
If Allah had said "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." then that would mean that a book from Allah cannot contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun".
In the example of the number of times the words "good" and "evil" are used in the qur'aan, Danish cuts off the quote in the middle of the reasoning. The full quote is as follows
"Say The evil (al-Khabees) and the good (at-Tayyab) are not alike?(Koran 5100)"
When we come to this particular statement in the Koran on dissimilarity, the items mentioned occur an equal number of times. The word "evil (al-Khabees)," is mentioned seven times (see page 226 of the index) and the word, "the good (at-Tayyab)," seven times also (see page 432). Did the Koran fail? According to our trend above, the negative (the evil) should be one less than the positive (the good). How come "the evil" is one more than what it should be?
The Koran fails only if we cut off the statement in the middle of the sentence. The verse continues
"Say The evil and the good are not alike; EVENTHOUGH the plenty of the evil amazes you. So be careful of your duty to God, O people that understand, so that you may SUCEED (Koran 5100)"
If we are careful, just like the above statement mentions, we notice that God joins together all the evil (al-Khabees)" in the use of words, i.e. all different forms of the word and not only "the evil (al-Khabees), in order to differentiate between evil and good. Thus "evil (al-Khabees)" is separated from "good (at-Tayyab)."
"That God may separate the evil from the good and place the evil (Khabees) one upon the other also heap them ALL TOGETHER?(Koran 837)"
Now acting on the advice of the above verse in the "mention" of words, if we "heap together" all the "evil (Khabees)," in its different forms of use in the Koran, and the many root forms, we end up with sixteen times that the word "evil" is mentioned as against seven that the word "good" is mentioned. Thus the good and the evil are not alike if we "heap them together," even though the plenty (sixteen as against seven) of the "evil" amazes us.
Allah is clearly asking to "heap together" all the "evil", and if one "heaps together" all the "evil" in its different forms of use in the qur'aan, and the many root forms, one ends up with the word "evil" mentioned sixteen times as against the word "good" mentioned seven times thus showing that the good and evil are not alike when we "heap them together".
-
Salaam Enquirer,
Peace adley and all. Adley,dont be too hard on yourself...just try to do the best you can,live morally and be open-minded. If you are concerned about your actions and faith that is a good indicator of genuine 'belief'.
Peace all.Thanks for lifting up my spirit.
May God bless your kindness bro.=adley=