Quran - The Word of God or Man.
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Peace Ahmed,
I thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view, which I respect very much. It seems to me that our difference of opinion comes from the fact that you read the Qur'an in a rather literal sense, whereas I tend to look for possible symbolic or metaphoric meanings.
Personally I think that either way is acceptable, as long as you keep a consistency to your interpretations, which you seem to do. Perhaps God is recognizing our individuality by making many versions of the one path... one that is more literal and another more symbolic (and perhaps others), and has guided us to follow the one that is more appropriate for our nafs. And I think that until we admit each others' right to interpret the Qur'an in the different logical ways it can be interpreted, we will have nothing but conflict. -
Peace,
It seems to me that our difference of opinion comes from the fact that you read the Qur'an in a rather literal sense, whereas I tend to look for possible symbolic or metaphoric meanings.
Personally I think that either way is acceptable, as long as you keep a consistency to your interpretations, which you seem to do. Perhaps God is recognizing our individuality by making many versions of the one path... one that is more literal and another more symbolic (and perhaps others), and has guided us to follow the one that is more appropriate for our nafs. And I think that until we admit each others' right to interpret the Qur'an in the different logical ways it can be interpreted, we will have nothing but conflict.
By rational and logical apprehension, GOD, the Creator of our Creations, cannot possibly say one thing (as literal) to one set of individuals and at the same time another (as metaphorical) to another set of individuals, yet calling HIS ummah as ONE. This approach is not only inconsistent but contradictory and obviously creates confusion and chaos as seen. This sort of comprehension is weak, illogical and taking GOD's name in vain as being hypocrital and senseless (astagfirullah).
Reiterated several times earlier, you are inadvertently and childishly making a mockery of not only your own "holy book" but as well as of Allah. People just don't seem to realize it and continue to do so. What is wrong in saying that the Quran says this or that or the verse is saying this or that, rather than taking GOD's name in uncertain ways and making a fool out of yourselves. If discussion and understanding of the Quran is of utmost importance, then at least discuss it in such a manner as to not make a ridicule out of HIM by HIS Words, but by your own foolishness and misunderstandings.
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
Sorry for the delay, actually I forgot about it totally and danish comment reminded me that I still have a reply to you, sorry
I thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view, which I respect very much.
no worries bro, I too thank you for keeping the dialogue respectable and constructive
It seems to me that our difference of opinion comes from the fact that you read the Qur'an in a rather literal sense, whereas I tend to look for possible symbolic or metaphoric meanings.
true, however the literal understanding is the most accurate one because when Allah wants to give us a metaphor, most of the times He tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, also there is things that is clear for average humans that it has to be a metaphor and the metaphor must be clear not zillions of different metaphors for the same verse, therefore for Allah to make the whole Quran a metaphor and not telling us in advance then leaving to us to work it out, defeats the main objective of this book of guidance, it also defeat our unity and make the believers look confused, arrogant, ignorant and sure stupid as well, there is no way our Mighty God will do this to us
Personally I think that either way is acceptable,
as I said bro, there are many metaphors in the Quran that clearly say that it is a metaphor and you will see clearly that it has one metaphor explained by God in advance, some rare metaphors are also included without declaring that it is a metaphor because it is obvious that it is a metaphor, I can show many examples from the Quran,
as long as you keep a consistency to your interpretations,
exactly and to keep this consistency we should let the Quran explains itself without ignoring the historical facts associated with it during those 23 years of revelation
which you seem to do.
it took me years to learn how I do it, and there is one way to do it which is let the Quran explains itself, as well the language and history should not be ignored while understanding the Quran
Perhaps God is recognizing our individuality by making many versions of the one path... one that is more literal and another more symbolic (and perhaps others),
the difference here is this, the literal will lead to almost one conclusion, the symbolic will lead to many conclusion that may be contradictory and that is in the case if we were not told that it is a metaphor, but for the verses where we were told that it is a metaphor in advance we will see that it also lead to one symbol because it was told to us in advance that the verses are metaphors
and has guided us to follow the one that is more appropriate for our nafs.
impossible bro, there will be many contradiction this way and each one will uphold what they think is right according to their level of understanding, the only way is get around this is to take the verses literally unless it was said or understood clearly otherwise
And I think that until we admit each others' right to interpret the Qur'an in the different logical ways it can be interpreted, we will have nothing but conflict.
the Quran never gave this right actually, because the Quran is the only thing that interprets the Quran, i.e. the Quran explains itself and this should lead to the unity of the believers under one understanding not their division as we can see it clearly now even between the same sect
and that is why you said we will always have a conflict (I mean all the believers, not just me and you), the only solution is to understand the Quran as literal as possible unless it is said or understood clearly otherwise
peace be with you mate
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Danish wrote
Step at a time and lets not get carried away with questions upon questions. My previous post has not been answered at all (rules and judges as per your alleged admissions)??? Please stick to it before we can move any further.bro you have not answered Al Salatu Al Wasta for months now, remember that one? when you said the words don't have the Al in them, well i told you mate that i expected a concession from you but you just turned a blind eye
why you think i will waste my time going through all these pages while i don't have trust in you that you are a man to accept the truth and admit it about the Al?
therefore if you are not that serious don't expect that i will be serious with you but i still respect you and like your style for sure,
let's look at what happened again
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you raised a quran conradiction with a christian, and this does not make any sense to me
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then you came and said that the Quran is not the words of Allah and you can refute the ones who say that it is, EASILY
now i asked you to do it with me and show me how easy it will be for you,
you failed to do this so far
you failed to prove that it is easy because you directed me to some used by date chat chat, that i'm not interested in really, i do have a life
that is my challenge to you, i don't really give a fluke if i prove to you that it is the words of Allah or not, but what i will give a fluke about is this
i will show everyone that what you said regarding ITS EASE is nothing but utter BS
this means a new start but under judges and rules we create together and agree on
i guess if it is easy as you say you should accept and not dodge, let's nominate the judges then we move on to the rules
I will select my two judges out of the following pool
- Agentxxx
- Kyle
- Savage_Carrot
- Joe
- KGB
how about the pool of your two judges?
cheers
Ahmed, no need to flutter and grunt, making a mish-mash of discussion when confronted with questions that shake you up. Your deceptive tactics to avoid rebutting is being exposed once again, in much the same manner as you did in "al salatu al wusta" topic and here in this thread as well. And this is the reason I didn't proceed any further. You don't seem to have the apptitute to debate in an ethical manner, so much for your blind beliefs and wishy-washy claims. Please get to work on the following without being hasty and getting sidetracked. Think and take all your time for my "horses are held"
Question How do YOU know that the Quran that we have today, a book that was written 1400+ years ago by "MAN", is the exact Word of GOD providing evidence from beyond what is written in the book itself? If you bring about verses from within the book itself to support your preconceived notions written by "MAN", then you will fail miserably.
Now refute these links and I shall respond
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5177&start=25
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79504&highlight=#79504
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79403&highlight=#79403
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78188&highlight=#78188
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Peace all. Yes,i would like to see someone answer properly what danish is saying...i have asked this same question myself.
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer, Danish
Even though I would like to discuss more about the content than the form, but your question is ligitimate, so here my understanding about QURAN origin
1- Once There was a fantastic man called Mohammad who claimed to have brought the words of THE COSMIC MIND which was gathered in Quran.
2- After him his stream was splitted into many sects of enemies. but all these enemies through history have agreed on one point and that is the fact that THIS BOOK IS THE SAME BOOK AS IT WAS.
peace
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Peace alpha97. Your first point i can about agree with. The second point needs more evidence. As an example many christians(even from different sects) believe in jesus rising from the dead physically(or the virgin birth.) but this does not make it true.
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer,
1- More can not be offered than this! regarding the originality of this book, as it was 1400 years ago, maybe till several hundered years ago, but not to its revelation time.
2- My Faith is first in GOD and that brings me across scriptuers.
I believe that HE only can guide and HE will do that after one gets straight from inside. HE will not guide you by reading or believing a book.Once on the right path, one would not need to know the source of a saying but its contents to relate to it.
My belief in Quran is because it helps me to get close and serve GOD. SO I do not believe in GOD because Quran says.
I do not believe in believing!! NOT in a long run. IT starts with believing, but it should illuminate into FAITH, otherwise as Quran says it would look like a donkey carrying a masterpiece on his back.
peace,
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Peace alpha97. Yes,i agree with that analysis. Excellent post.
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Ahmed, no need to flutter and grunt, making a mish-mash of discussion when confronted with questions that shake you up.
Haha my firend, questions that shake me up, a 13 years old true believer will be able to answer these questions
the point is, i choose when and what questions I answere in a sort of a discussion manner, debating is different to me and it seems you can't handle it
now i chose not to discuss it with you rather to debate it with you under these conditions, other than that bro you can keep slamming your head on the wall
Your deceptive tactics to avoid rebutting is being exposed once again, in much the same manner as you did in "al salatu al wusta" topic and here in this thread as well.
well, it was you that was exposed, I showed everyone that you even don't know the simplest thing in Arabic and that simple thing is called "Al" which means "The" in english
you were the one who ran away after your ignornace been exposed indeed
And this is the reason I didn't proceed any further. You don't seem to have the apptitute to debate in an ethical manner,
Haha, look who is talking, i have seen your ethical manner in discussion very well in action, who you are trying to fool?
certainly not me lol
so much for your blind beliefs and wishy-washy claims. Please get to work on the following without being hasty and getting sidetracked. Think and take all your time for my "horses are held"
back again to the blind belief, well i showed well and truly that i only talk by the Quran, this blind faith is simply a Danish made up BS
Question How do YOU know that the Quran that we have today, a book that was written 1400+ years ago by "MAN", is the exact Word of GOD providing evidence from beyond what is written in the book itself? If you bring about verses from within the book itself to support your preconceived notions written by "MAN", then you will fail miserably.
i will only debate the arrogant under the conditions i stated, i only discuss the quran with the ones who want to learn it and possibly i learn from them too, but you don't belong to those ones any more, because you promote lies about the Quran and sure you will incur a greive punishment from the Author of the Quran
Now refute these links and I shall respond
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5177&start=25
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79504&highlight=#79504
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79403&highlight=#79403
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78188&highlight=#78188
I will have a look at it to see how smart you are, but my stand is firm you want to get involve with me in a Quran debate then IT HAS to be under the conditions I stated, other than that I will never answer your cries lol
Cheers
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Ahmed, no need to flutter and grunt, making a mish-mash of discussion when confronted with questions that shake you up.
Haha, my firend, questions that shake me up, a 13 years old true believer will be abloe to answer these questions
the point is, i chose when and what question I answered in a sort of a discussion manner, debating is different and it seems you can't handle it
now i chose not to discuss it with you rather to debate it with you under these conditions, other than that bro you can keep slamming your head on the wall
Your deceptive tactics to avoid rebutting is being exposed once again, in much the same manner as you did in "al salatu al wusta" topic and here in this thread as well.
well, it was you that was exposed, I showed everyone that you even donlt know the simples thing in Arabic and that simple thing call "Al" which means "The" in english
you were the one who ran away after your ignornac ebing exposed indeed
And this is the reason I didn't proceed any further. You don't seem to have the apptitute to debate in an ethical manner,
Haha, look he is talking, i have see your ethical manner in discussion in action, who you are trying to fool?
certainly not me lol
so much for your blind beliefs and wishy-washy claims. Please get to work on the following without being hasty and getting sidetracked. Think and take all your time for my "horses are held"
back again to the blind belief, well i showed well and truly that i only talk by the Quran, thisblind faith is simply a Danish made up BS
Question How do YOU know that the Quran that we have today, a book that was written 1400+ years ago by "MAN", is the exact Word of GOD providing evidence from beyond what is written in the book itself? If you bring about verses from within the book itself to support your preconceived notions written by "MAN", then you will fail miserably.
i will only debate the arrogant under the conditions i stated, i only discuss the quran witrh the ones who want to learn it, but you don't belong to those ones any more, because you promote lies about the Quran and sure you will incur a greive punishment from the Author of the Quran
Now refute these links and I shall respond
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5177&start=25
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79504&highlight=#79504
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79403&highlight=#79403
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78188&highlight=#78188
I will have a look at it to see how smart you are, but my stand is firm you want to get involve with me in a Quran debate then IT HAS to be under the conditions I stated, other than that I will never answer your cries lol
Cheers
More grunts and bickering, nothing substantial. Get to work dude as there's plenty more to come. This is just the beginning and you're already loosing grounds.
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peace all
danish wrote
Much of what the Quran advocates has already been revealed in previous books, the events of which took place millenniums ago. As I mentioned earlier, all we can do is take note of it, reflect upon it and use it to understand our own current paths, just like zillion other spiritual and inspirational books, poetry/poems, movies, songs, sayings, etc. that touch are hearts. Most importantly, the reality/nature and all that is seen, heard and witnessed first hand, speak of itself as its truest and purest form in real life situations and what better way to understand, contemplate, reason, learn and act upon as such in order to lead a good life.
i agree.
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enquirer wrote
Peace danish and all. I sympathise with your analysis danish. But i take consolation that although the quran can be used to cause harm,some muslims take some benefit from it. Taking a metaphorical and/or mystic approach to its words can help some people. But i do agree that the logic in saying the quran is infallible is circular and plainly not true. The verses you highlighted are a sample of the inconsistencies,if we were to be truely open-minded we would discover many others. It seems we have to resort to limbo-dancing and mental gymnastics to make the quran free from inconsistencies. I feel that people are scared that if they found the quran to be truth mixed with error that their faith and/or morals would collapse.I feel we are clinging to the quran too blindly.(how can the quran be perfect when only god is supposed to be perfect according to the quran?). I have let go of my previous belief that the quran was infallible and i feel my knowledge and morals are much improved as a direct result. Knowledge and morals can be found in the quran,torah,bible,bhagvad gita,canon pali,the sun newspaper,reuters etc.. and more importantly in life-experience. However this knowledge has to be verified(rational) and should cause a decrease in human suffering. Niestchze said; 'what is the point of knowledge which brings no human benefit'? The qurans usefulness to any person can be gauged by the readers behaviour changing for the better.
Peace all.good analysis.
Also, does the quran ever claim to be Perfect? -
More grunts and bickering, nothing substantial. Get to work dude as there's plenty more to come. This is just the beginning and you're already loosing grounds.
If this is how you want to understand my position, fine, but you have to know that for the last 2 years or so i was doing all these childish debates and sure me and the others stood firm to their position, while the two position are contradictory indeed, therefore i concluded that debating without rules and judges is just a child play and i'm not a child anymore,
see, when the nominees for the us presidential poistion debate together, they must have judges and rules, also when ahmed deedat was debating christians, judges and rules must be in place
the requirement of judges and rules is simply to govern me and you being biased to ourselve which certainly will be the case
therefore the rules and judges will eliminate this human nature thingy and will force the debate to be brief, constructive respectful and honest
we will all be biased to the truth under these conditions especially oath will be taken by all involved
that is why i will not waste my time any more, i'd rather spend it answering questions to those who want to learn the Arabic Quran
but as you know that i always reserve my right to add a comment to the public to any thread that I see from my perspective that is misleading delibertly or not about the Quran and i'm sure the others do the same to me, so we are even and no one should be upset
salam
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Peace Ahmed and all,
If this is how you want to understand my position, fine, but you have to know that for the last 2 years or so i was doing all these childish debates and sure me and the others stood firm to their position, while the two position are contradictory indeed, therefore i concluded that debating without rules and judges is just a child play and i'm not a child anymore,
I?m afraid to say that you still continue to debate and discuss matters childishly. By now, the answers to my questions should have been stated, with or without the rules and jurors, as is already the case; rather than debating over rules and judges; nevertheless, lets continue.
see, when the nominees for the us presidential poistion debate together, they must have judges and rules, also when ahmed deedat was debating christians, judges and rules must be in place
the requirement of judges and rules is simply to govern me and you being biased to ourselve which certainly will be the case
therefore the rules and judges will eliminate this human nature thingy and will force the debate to be brief, constructive respectful and honest
When agreed, the jurors will be all members of this site as ONE parliament or cabinet equally equipped and swift to respond to any suspicious activity as deemed fit. The suspicious activity can be further defined and considered. The majority of the juror?s decision will prevail. Better yet, we can request the members who would like to partake in jury duty at the end of each unconcluded questionnaire to resolve the issues and thereby accept their final judgment, WILLINGLY, rather than pick-n-choose them as per your agendas.
we will all be biased to the truth under these conditions especially oath will be taken by all involved
Oath is not necessary, as our posts will be widely exposed for everyone to witness. Besides, it is our duty to be constructive, respectful and candid in the first place. Isn?t this the reason for what we are here for? Your shaky grounds displays your weakness. But if you insist, we will take the oath as set by the jurors, fairly and squarely, OKay?
that is why i will not waste my time any more, i'd rather spend it answering questions to those who want to learn the Arabic Quran
Everyone here is learning and educating themselves by various thoughts poured in, with or within and without or beyond the Quran, including you. You cannot force or boast your teachings of Quran, whether it pertains to Arabic linguistics or underlying preconceived understanding of the verses or passages thereof, onto anyone the Taliban style. Looking at it realistically, there are people out there TODAY that are much better equipped with intelligence and wisdom than you and me, both in linguistics and spirituality, regardless of what the Quran confessed to the individual BACK THEN.
but as you know that i always reserve my right to add a comment to the public to any thread that I see from my perspective that is misleading delibertly or not about the Quran and i'm sure the others do the same to me, so we are even and no one should be upset
The discussion must adhere to systematic, consistent, coherent and unreservedly (meaning openness, expressed and relevant to subject matter). Deliberations must be enhanced and supported by examples and evidences, not superfluous, canny and futile bearings irrelevant of purpose.
Do we agree? If no, please elaborate. If yes, then let?s start with jurors. If anyone else wishes to add or modify the relevancy of this discussion, please come forward and state your reasons. Thanks.
Please bear in mind, that the discussion between Ahmed and myself, will be on the topic of this thread and the questions/links already put forth to begin with, which can be discussed/debated one at a time.
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Peace Ahmed and all,
Peace danish and all
If this is how you want to understand my position, fine, but you have to know that for the last 2 years or so i was doing all these childish debates and sure me and the others stood firm to their position, while the two position are contradictory indeed, therefore i concluded that debating without rules and judges is just a child play and i'm not a child anymore,
I?m afraid to say that you still continue to debate and discuss matters childishly.
oh please, as if i'm the only one who is doing, but i'm sure my commenst still interesting to read, in fact i found it interetsing for myself and always say how the hell i wrote that lol
if children act inestinctivly then fine, i'm a child, at least this will give me the merit for you to consider my innocence, you know the incconece of te children
By now, the answers to my questions should have been stated,
sorry, what right entitle you to say by now the answers to your questions should be stated?
with or without the rules and jurors,
it has to be with the jurors, if you want to call them as such and because the don't exist yet, why i have to prepare answers to your questioins?
as is already the case; rather than debating over rules and judges; nevertheless, lets continue.
let's consider it a change, agree?
see, when the nominees for the us presidential poistion debate together, they must have judges and rules, also when ahmed deedat was debating christians, judges and rules must be in place
the requirement of judges and rules is simply to govern me and you being biased to ourselve which certainly will be the case
therefore the rules and judges will eliminate this human nature thingy and will force the debate to be brief, constructive respectful and honest
When agreed, the jurors will be all members of this site as ONE parliament or cabinet equally equipped and swift to respond to any suspicious activity as deemed fit. The suspicious activity can be further defined and considered. The majority of the juror?s decision will prevail. Better yet, we can request the members who would like to partake in jury duty at the end of each unconcluded questionnaire to resolve the issues and thereby accept their final judgment, WILLINGLY, rather than pick-n-choose them as per your agendas.
fine, i'm very flexable when it comes to creating rules and policies
we will all be biased to the truth under these conditions especially oath will be taken by all involved
Oath is not necessary,
no, it is a MUST, because we are going to discuss somthing that relates to Allah, and even if it does not, this is important to scare everyone from what they are going to say so they think about enough before they say it.
as our posts will be widely exposed for everyone to witness.
that is why oath is required, i donlt want to get into these used by dates sort of debates, you know like Ali Snile and many others, i passed that level already and sure i'm sick and tired of it, when there is rules and judges or juroros at least you won't see me debating childishly as you are trying to accuse me, becayuse i will respect, and honr bothe the judges or jurors and the rules in place
Besides, it is our duty to be constructive, respectful and candid in the first place.
well, most of the times it never go this way, too much arrogance in each one of us, and i believe this arrogance is being exploited by Satan and his progeny
Isn?t this the reason for what we are here for?
yeh for the truth, but as you know practical life is something else than hopes, wishes and dreams
Your shaky grounds displays your weakness.
lol
i believe you will never have a firmer ground than the one i'm standing on, while i wish you good luck to find the truth
But if you insist,
of course i insist
we will take the oath as set by the jurors, fairly and squarely, OKay?
100% agree, but i suggest that me and you also have some input in the Oath?
that is why i will not waste my time any more, i'd rather spend it answering questions to those who want to learn the Arabic Quran
Everyone here is learning and educating themselves by various thoughts poured in, with or within and without or beyond the Quran,
yep, i know that
including you.
yep, i know that
You cannot force or boast your teachings of Quran,
now i have a problem with the above
firstly you are right that i can't force it, but how i did force it, can you give me some real examples?, now i know you will find none, but can you please now give me an unreal example, like a metaphor in how i can do it
I also have a problem with the words "My Teachings", because i donlt invent indeed, my position as everyone knows that i explain the Quran as literal as it can be, this mean, i'm controlled and limitted to the literal meaning that i didn't invent from the first place
so to say such thing is baseless and unfounded, there are many others here who force non sense regarding many vital things in the religion and ironically they use some archelogical or whatever things that they call evidences while the Quran should be the only evidence as they ironically boast
again you have no point, if you are considering expainling the literal Quran as boasting a teaching, then it is boasting the teaching of the literal Quran not my teaching, my walkthrough is only logical thoughts based on the literal meaning
whether it pertains to Arabic linguistics or underlying preconceived understanding of the verses or passages thereof, onto anyone the Taliban style. Looking at it realistically, there are people out there TODAY that are much better equipped with intelligence and wisdom than you and me, both in linguistics and spirituality, regardless of what the Quran confessed to the individual BACK THEN.
unrelated to our discussion and sorry i ignored it
but as you know that i always reserve my right to add a comment to the public to any thread that I see from my perspective that is misleading delibertly or not about the Quran and i'm sure the others do the same to me, so we are even and no one should be upset
The discussion must adhere to systematic, consistent, coherent and unreservedly (meaning openness, expressed and relevant to subject matter).
as long as it is based on common sense and not things from another planet
Deliberations must be enhanced and supported by examples and evidences, not superfluous, canny and futile bearings irrelevant of purpose.
Do we agree?
I agree on many of the things you said especially the last part, i guess i only diagreed about the Oath
If no, please elaborate. If yes, then let?s start with jurors. If anyone else wishes to add or modify the relevancy of this discussion, please come forward and state your reasons. Thanks.
we need to know how manny Jurors should be appointed, i guess an odd number is the way to go, like 3,5,7, etc
Please bear in mind, that the discussion between Ahmed and myself, will be on the topic of this thread and the questions/links already put forth to begin with, which can be discussed/debated one at a time.
Salam danish
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that is why oath is required, i donlt want to get into these used by dates sort of debates, you know like Ali Snile and many others, i passed that level already and sure i'm sick and tired of it, when there is rules and judges or juroros at least you won't see me debating childishly as you are trying to accuse me, becayuse i will respect, and honr bothe the judges or jurors and the rules in place
Ah, Ali Sina the senile. If I recall correctly, I told you so a while back that he can't be beat and that you'll be "thrown out" in no time, but you insisted to challenge him and his evil cronies, and perhaps make at least one of them a "beliver". It seems that you were badly beaten up and your posts were mutilated by their members, hence your tiredness and sickness of debating with them.
http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/search.php?search_author=AhmedBahgat
Comparing faithfreedom.org to free-minds.org for "oath & rule" driven discussions shows your lack of faith and beliefs in this forum as well. Then why are you here if you cannot discuss matters ethically, coherently and honestly. Didn't you mention that you were grown up and no longer a child's play? Then why the puerile statements. Rules of this forum, unlike faithfreedom, has already been denominted and you have nothing to fear. Let the jurors of this forum decide. It clearly shows that you are not confident in yourself, let alone the rules and judges of this forum and its members, because you keep bragging about it abstractively, deniably and boostfully.
Nevertheless, I'll take up the challenge YOUR way.
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that is why oath is required, i donlt want to get into these used by dates sort of debates, you know like Ali Snile and many others, i passed that level already and sure i'm sick and tired of it, when there is rules and judges or juroros at least you won't see me debating childishly as you are trying to accuse me, becayuse i will respect, and honr bothe the judges or jurors and the rules in place
Ah, Ali Sina the senile. If I recall correctly, I told you so a while back that he can't be beat and that you'll be "thrown out" in no time, but you insisted to challenge him and his evil cronies, and perhaps make at least one of them a "beliver". It seems that you were badly beaten up and your posts were mutilated by their members, hence your tiredness and sickness of debating with them.
http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/search.php?search_author=AhmedBahgat
Comparing faithfreedom.org to free-minds.org for "oath & rule" driven discussions shows your lack of faith and beliefs in this forum as well. Then why are you here if you cannot discuss matters ethically, coherently and honestly. Didn't you mention that you were grown up and no longer a child's play? Then why the puerile statements. Rules of this forum, unlike faithfreedom, has already been denominted and you have nothing to fear. Let the jurors of this forum decide. It clearly shows that you are not confident in yourself, let alone the rules and judges of this forum and its members, because you keep bragging about it abstractively, deniably and boostfully.
Nevertheless, I'll take up the challenge YOUR way.
Lol Danish
I know Ali Snile ages ago, i read all his work btw, 75% of it is non sensible for sure and have no merit, it is actually a deliberate act of deception which he will pay for it dearly on the JD, i believe if he dies like that he will reside in the seventh hell, you know the bottom one, my rules in my book for my daily life is simple, with a clear cut enemy of Islam like him, do you think i will waste my time?, i'd rather watse it you with ya for now, at least i found you funny and i like your style, but i found snile very repetitive and boring indeed
I only went there to have some fun and intimidate them a bit, but only when i was bored, as i found 95% of them nothing but a bunch of kiddos and teens i told that already there, i hope you read it too, this is true bro, follow my posts there and you will see what i'm talking about, there is no doubt that many there knew me already and there is no doubt that i took attention when i joined even with my crappy posts in there, but i don't have time for them currently although and sure i'm having them on my sight
i hope you read my challenge to them in there?, in fact the moderator there tried politely to stop me from issuing that challenge, like you did first
but I'm glad you accepted my challenge but btw there is no $ 50K involved here
see, this alone proves that Snile is nothing but a joke
now you have to be aware that the rules i will ask for and both of us and the jurors must accept is going to be very strict my friend, therefore i guess you should start thinking about your very strict rules as well because i'm sure we will spend a lot of time negotiating them, are you a good negotiater by any chance?
cheers
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Peace all,
For a conclusive proof that the qur'aan can only be the word of Allah, please check out my article at the following link
THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF ALLAH
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Peace all,
Are these the words of God or man?
The use of why in the following verses confuses me, it gives me an impression ?NOT SURE? ? But God is all-knowing?-
WHY DO NOT THE LEARNED MEN AND THE DOCTORS OF LAW PROHIBIT THEM from their speaking of what is sinful and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired? Certainly evil is that which they work.
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WHY DID NOT THE BELIEVING MEN AND THE BELIEVING WOMEN, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say This is an evident falsehood?
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WHY DID THEY NOT BRING FOUR WITNESSES OF IT? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah.
61 2. O you who believe! WHY DO YOU SAY THAT which you do not do?
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BUT WHY WERE THERE NOT AMONG THE GENERATIONS BEFORE YOU THOSE possessing understanding, who should have forbidden the making of mischief in the earth, except a few of those whom We delivered from among them? And those who were unjust went after what they are made to enjoy of plenty, and they were guilty.
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BUT WHY DO THEY COME TO THEE FOR DECISION, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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"These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him WHY DO THEY NOT BRING FORWARD AN AUTHORITY CLEAR (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah?
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Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor MAYBE ALLAH WILL RESTRAIN THE FIGHTING of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
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WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
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AND WHAT REASON HAVE YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT EAT of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned...
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And certainly We sent (messengers) to nations before you then We seized them with distress and affliction in order that they might humble themselves
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YET WHY DID THEY NOT, when Our punishment came to them, humble themselves? But their hearts hardened and the Shaitan made what they did fair-seeming to them.
66 1. O PROPHET! WHY DO YOU FORBID (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
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WHY WAS THERE NOT A SINGLE TOWNSHIP (among those We warned), which believed,- so its faith should have profited it,- except the people of Jonah? When they believed, We removed from them the penalty of ignominy in the life of the present, and permitted them to enjoy (their life) for a while.
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AND WHAT REASON HAVE you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
peace.
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