status of women - as seen from The Quran
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Salam,
Very interesting subject.....are you implying that we divide wahi and decide that when ever it says men it does not mean women also?
Are you suggesting that men can not mean human beings (women included?) -
Salam,
Very interesting subject.....are you implying that we divide wahi and decide that when ever it says men it does not mean women also?
Are you suggesting that men can not mean human beings (women included?)Peace
Very good question that is also in my mind for long time now, well, i see the Quran means men and women by some verses and men by others and women by others
it will need a carefull study to find all the references in the Quran then carefully looking at its context
peace
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Salam and lol,
That could mean women have far less rules than men if that is the case.
Just something that came to mind. Something to think about. -
Peace dd, all,
I was going to post that link but dd beat me to it !! )
I will however post another link that CONVINCINGLY proves that there is NO POLYGAMY AT ALL according to the Qur'aan and that the allowance of polygamy in the case of orphans is based on a gross mistranslation of the verse (the real meaning of that verse makes perfect sense without any polygamy). If that verse indeed allows polygamy, then it contradicts the Qur'aan in many other places. Check out the article
http//www.free-minds.org/polygamy.htm
Comments on the article will be appreciated.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace tanveer
Good article. I had one question though that maybe we can discuss. Maybe I missed it but the author never mentioned why the verse says "two, three or four." I understood that the translation was to marry off orphans (and not marry) but why the "two, three or four?"
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Pease CavemanDoctor,
The verse DOES NOT say two, three, four. It says TWO'S, THREE'S, FOUR'S, meaning group of 2 or two at a time, group of 3 or three at a time, group of 4 or four at a time. Allah wants the guardian of the orphans to MARRY OFF the women orphans in GROUPS OF 2,3, or 4 to avoid hardship.
For example marry off four women to four men at the same time in a group wedding which will be less expensive than to marry the four women one by one in separate weddings, thus avoiding hardship. It is not common practice for one man to MARRY women in two's, three's or four's i.e. 2,3, or 4 women at the same time; however one can MARRY OFF groups of 2 or 3 or 4 women to 2 or 3 or 4 other men.
The words used in verse 43 are "mathna" meaning two's, "thulatha" meaning three's, and "ruba'a" meaning four's. The Arabic word for two is "atnain" not "mathna", for three "talata" not "thulatha", for four "arba'a" not "ruba'a".
For a detailed discussion of verse 43 please see the threads at the following links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=46275#46275
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=46734#46734
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Pease CavemanDoctor,
The verse DOES NOT say two, three, four. It says TWO'S, THREE'S, FOUR'S, meaning group of 2 or two at a time, group of 3 or three at a time, group of 4 or four at a time. Allah wants the guardian of the orphans to MARRY OFF the women orphans in GROUPS OF 2,3, or 4 to avoid hardship.
For example marry off four women to four men at the same time in a group wedding which will be less expensive than to marry the four women one by one in separate weddings, thus avoiding hardship. It is not common practice for one man to MARRY women in two's, three's or four's i.e. 2,3, or 4 women at the same time; however one can MARRY OFF groups of 2 or 3 or 4 women to 2 or 3 or 4 other men.
The words used in verse 43 are "mathna" meaning two's, "thulatha" meaning three's, and "ruba'a" meaning four's. The Arabic word for two is "atnain" not "mathna", for three "talata" not "thulatha", for four "arba'a" not "ruba'a".
For a detailed discussion of verse 43 please see the threads at the following links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=46275#46275
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=46734#46734
Peace tanveer
Thanks for all the help and elucidation. I feel my understanding is more complete now. I still have one logical question about the language.
Looking at 44, we see
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you to by twos, by threes and by fours. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
So since it doesnt use the word two, three, and four, but rather twos, threes, and fours, it is clear that it means in multiples of that as in a group. That much is clear. But the verse follows that up with "but if you fear that you will be unfair then by one." This is not yet computing in my head clearly. It might be something simple that I'm just missing. What's a scenario would this come into play? If I'm unfair about what? About marrying them off in multiples? I guess I'm asking why marrying them off one by one would be more fair? Maybe cause it would make each orphan feel more special?
Whatever the answer, I think it should be tied into "or what your right hand possessed" and "as this is better than getting into hardship."
Peace.
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Peace CavemanDoctor,
But the verse follows that up with "but if you fear that you will be unfair then by one." This is not yet computing in my head clearly. It might be something simple that I'm just missing. What's a scenario would this come into play? If I'm unfair about what? About marrying them off in multiples? I guess I'm asking why marrying them off one by one would be more fair? Maybe cause it would make each orphan feel more special?
I agree with you. Every person is different, and one orphan woman might think that her wedding is not that special in a group setting and that you are being unfair to her by marrying her off in a group, or she does not wish to be married off in a group wedding but wishes to be married off by herself. Then if you marry off only her by herself and the remaining orphans in a group that would be unfair by not treating all of them equally. Also if you marry off one of the orphans by herself and the remaining in a group, the per capita expense of wedding will be more for the single wedding than the group wedding and the other orphans might perceive that you are being unfair by spending more money on one orphan than on the others, or that you are treating one orphan more special than the others combined. In that case marry them off one by one to prevent unfairness.
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Hello All
just a quick note
3 in arabic is actually Thulath, or Thalatha, depends on the tashkil
Talata is the street language version
peace
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Peace
4 3
Yusuf Ali If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice.
4 127
Yusuf Ali They ask thy instruction concerning the women. Say Allah doth instruct you about them and (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed and yet whom ye desire to marry as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.
I felt the the above 2 verses are connected , so that it might be important for interpretation.
In 4127 "WHAT HATH BEEN REHEARSED UNTO YOU in the Book concerning the orphans of women" is about the instruction in 43 regarding women. Its like saying already told you certain instructions in 43 regard to the same subject.This is my opinion and I may be wrong . Please add your thoughts to this.
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Peace warner,
Welcome to the forum. welcome
The verses you quoted have been discussed in detail in an article at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/polygamy.htm
This article proves how these verses have been mistranslated by most translators, and gives the correct translation based on proof from al-qur'aan. Hope that helps.
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Polygamy is allowed in the Quraan
423
Pickthall.....And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together
Yusuf Ali.....and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time except for what is pastAlthough Brother Yaseen makes some intersting points, cannot agree to his view
that Polygamy is not allowed in the Quraan .
If it is not allowed the above quoted part of the verse 423 will not be necessary, since you cannot marry 2 or more at the same time how can the question of having 2 sisters at the same
time can be an issue.This is my humble opinion from the Quraan , Please add your thoughts.
Peace
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Peace warner,
Although Brother Yaseen makes some interesting points can not agree with his view
that Polygamy is not allowed in the Quraan .423
Pickthall.....And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together
Yusuf Ali.....and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time except for what is pastIf polygamy is not allowed the above quoted part of the verse 423 will not be necessary .
Since you cannot marry 2 or more at the same time how can the question of having 2 sisters at the same
time can be an issue.This is my humble opinion from the Quraan , Please add your thoughts.
Sorry warner, you have no point.
Allah does not allow polygamy ANYWHERE in al-qur'aan.
Firstly, 423 is not permission for polygamy. People used to practice polygamy before revelation of al-qur'aan because they were not following Allah's laws. 423 mentions about a special case of polygamy with 2 sisters which was being practiced BEFORE revelation of al-qur'aan, and Allah forbids that practice after revelation of this verse, but forgives people who did it in the past before the revelation of that verse. This DOES NOT MEAN that Allah is allowing bigamy with 2 sisters.
Secondly, in al-qur'aan, including 43, Allah nowhere allows polygamy, so saying that 423 implies that polygamy is allowed creates CONTRADICTION in Allah's words.
Brother Yaseen's answer to you is as follows, quoted from his article
"Is there ?bigamy? through verse 423?
Prohibited to are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
?Verse 423? is not about polygamy, or bigamy. It is about incest and incestuous relationships. ?Polygamy? is only visible to a conditioned mind that has taken ?polygamy? as an acceptable practice. The above verse lists the categories of women who are unlawful to a man for marriage be it polygamous or monogamous; you can?t marry your mother and your daughter simultaneously or separately. If any of these types of marriages was in place at the time of revelation, this would not and could not have continued under any circumstances. The last mention in this chain list of incestuous relationships is the ?joining? between the two sisters, that is being married to two sisters at the same time and the exception that follows it, only refers to this latter incestuous relationship only. For those who still insist in seeing polygamy/bigamy, I will ask them one simple question
What about if one was married to 3 sisters at the same time, should he divorce one of the sisters after receiving this revelation?
The main point is in the same way that God did not command believers to free all slaves at once, He also did not command them to divorce all wives except one from polygamous marriages (if say one was married to 3 wives or more), the exception made through incestuous relationships mentioned in verse 423 is for a believer not to divorce any of the two sisters, although the latter is more of an incestuous situation before being a simple polygamous case.
Now if we accept that verse 43 is not about polygamy, are we going to search for bigamy through verse 423?"
Link for the above quote
http//www.geocities.com/yaseen_q/polygamy.html
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salam,
also the quran mentions the WIVES of the prophet.That would mean if quran does not allow polygamy,the prophet would have been breaking quranic rules??That is absurd!
Salam..just my thoughts..any ideas?
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Peace all,
also the quran mentions the WIVES of the prophet.That would mean if quran does not allow polygamy,the prophet would have been breaking quranic rules??That is absurd!
Good point. I would add however that the qur'aan allows polygyny and not polyandry. Reference 424 where we are forbidden to marry "mohsanat"/committed/protected women which includes married women.
Since my last post above, after a lot of deliberation, discussion and research on this topic, I have arrived at a new understanding that polygyny is allowed by The God by virtue of not forbidding it in the qur'aan. In 423 The God is acknowledging the presence of polygyny by forbidding polygyny with 2 sisters, but does not forbid polygyny with other women, hence permitting polygyny with women other than sisters.
Having said that I still have the understanding that 43 is not about polygyny but is about marrying off the mothers of orphans in groups. For details please see the following link from another thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5843.msg90163#msg90163
Even if 43 talks about polygyny, the mothers of the orphans are to be married in a group at the same time, with a maximum of 4 at the same time.
The limit of wives in polygyny would be 4 not because of 43, but because of definition of zina according to the qur'aan. Please see the following link for definition of zina
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5843.msg89825#msg89825
So if four people witnessed a MARRIED man and woman having intercourse, then the man and woman ARE a "zani" and "zaniyah", even though they are MARRIED.
Thus the limit in a polygynous relationship has to be 4 wives because if a man has 5 wives then it will become zina because then there will be 4 witnesses to the intercourse between the husband and the 5th wife.
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Salaam All,
"He it is Who has sent down the book to you In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say ?We believe in the book; the whole of it is from Rabbana (our Lord)? and none will grasp the message except those humans of understanding (7) chapter 3.
To me and I might be wrong, but the whole issue of heaven is metaphorical. In Bible there were some people were always trying to trip Messiah Isa, so he answered them that we will be like angels in heaven.
God has given us humans reasoning, rational, reasonable, coherent, analytical, investigative, critical, methodical, questioning, dissecting, logical, beautiful mind, this is our (humans) advantage over the angels. This is the advantage given to us by our Sustainer. I hope we don't lose this advantage in heaven.
Mohamed
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I once wrote a 20 page paper on Womens right in Islam based on Quran alone. If anyone likes to read it, then I am more than glad to post it up. If you can stomach 20 pages. )
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Hi,
I find the progressive Islam interpretation is more compatible with my conscience. However, I cannot understand why Quran proposes to allow polygamy for those widowed when helping people should not expect anything in return. That is, those married men could just offer financial help without requiring marriage and also there is hardly anyone can treat all wives justly. Polygamy is a worldwide ancient practice. Most major religions have outlawed this why can't Islam? In trying to defend polygamy, Islam render itself to more questionings like why Prophet has more than 10 wives and now muslims are allowed a max of 4 and why not all wives of the Prophet are widowed? Now those muslims that practised polygamy are not those of widows and not enough bachelors to marry them - many just keep taking younger girls as wives.
Since there is so much different from the progressive Islam and those in the ME, Africa and India and parkistan and now SEA, who no attempt to teach them the right version of Islam.