Fate of the qur'aan rejecters

unknownuser

Peace all,

There are many proofs that the qur'aan is revealed by Allah. One of the proofs was referred to by brother darbaari. Some other proofs are existence of scientifically proven facts in the qur'aan which were discovered or proven by science hundreds of years after the revelation of the qur'aan and could not have been known by mankind at the time of revelation of the qur'aan. In fact some of those facts were opposite to what people thought to be true at that time. Please see the following links for articles on the scientific facts mentioned in the qur'aan which have been discovered just recently

http//asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/

http//rationalreality.50webs.com/sci.htm

Another excellent reference is the book by Maurice Bucaille "The Bible, The Koran and Science".

Another proof is the absence of any contradictions in Allah's revelations.

482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions/discrepancies.

Part of that proof is the absence of any contradictions with the proven scientific facts ad part of it is the one referenced by brother darbaari at the following link

http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm

Another proof is the inability of mankind to meet Allah's challenge of producing a chapter like the qur'aan. This challenge has been issued by Allah to mankind in the qur'aan itself

223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

1038 Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"

Another proof is the literary quality of the qur'aan and the prophecies made in the qur'aan that have come true. Please see the following link for an excellent article by brother Wakas on this topic

http//think786.cjb.net/ (click on "Articles", then on "Does God exist" and then on "Introduction")

unknownuser

Peace all,

Yep, such as your "proof". Easy said than done. Here's one for your to ponder upon and explain why your alleged "Words of GOD" are contradictory

Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them, they say This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say This is from you. Say All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told?

The very next verse says
Whatever benefit comes to you, it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you, to mankind as an apostle; and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

There is no contradiction. This has already been discussed in detail in the discussion at the following links

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5446

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812

No such thing is said in 3522. Perhaps he got mixed up with the wrong verse. Ah, the ?mistake?, the ?mention? and the ?use? of words as ?self-reference?.

It is in 3521. That is just a typo in that article, the reasoning still stands.

In the first he discards the notion of the word ?many? and in the second he conveniently takes the word ?plenty? into consideration to make it look uneven/unequal, simply because the Quran mentions that good and evil are not the same, yet the number of times both words written being the same, as per his analysis. Other flawed reasoning can easily be fetched out.

The failure of someone to follow the logic does not mean that the qur'aan is flawed but that the ability of that person to understand the logic is flawed.

The verse saying that "If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions" does not imply that the qur'aan cannot contain the phrase "many contradictions". The statement in the qur'aan is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than Allah can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun", which does not mean that a book from Allah CANNOT contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" and is not the same as saying that if a book contains the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" it is not from Allah.

If Allah had said "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." then that would mean that a book from Allah cannot contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun".

In the example of the number of times the words "good" and "evil" are used in the qur'aan, Danish cuts off the quote in the middle of the reasoning. The full quote is as follows

"Say The evil (al-Khabees) and the good (at-Tayyab) are not alike?(Koran 5100)"

When we come to this particular statement in the Koran on dissimilarity, the items mentioned occur an equal number of times. The word "evil (al-Khabees)," is mentioned seven times (see page 226 of the index) and the word, "the good (at-Tayyab)," seven times also (see page 432). Did the Koran fail? According to our trend above, the negative (the evil) should be one less than the positive (the good). How come "the evil" is one more than what it should be?

The Koran fails only if we cut off the statement in the middle of the sentence. The verse continues

"Say The evil and the good are not alike; EVENTHOUGH the plenty of the evil amazes you. So be careful of your duty to God, O people that understand, so that you may SUCEED (Koran 5100)"

If we are careful, just like the above statement mentions, we notice that God joins together all the evil (al-Khabees)" in the use of words, i.e. all different forms of the word and not only "the evil (al-Khabees), in order to differentiate between evil and good. Thus "evil (al-Khabees)" is separated from "good (at-Tayyab)."

"That God may separate the evil from the good and place the evil (Khabees) one upon the other also heap them ALL TOGETHER?(Koran 837)"

Now acting on the advice of the above verse in the "mention" of words, if we "heap together" all the "evil (Khabees)," in its different forms of use in the Koran, and the many root forms, we end up with sixteen times that the word "evil" is mentioned as against seven that the word "good" is mentioned. Thus the good and the evil are not alike if we "heap them together," even though the plenty (sixteen as against seven) of the "evil" amazes us.

Allah is clearly asking to "heap together" all the "evil", and if one "heaps together" all the "evil" in its different forms of use in the qur'aan, and the many root forms, one ends up with the word "evil" mentioned sixteen times as against the word "good" mentioned seven times thus showing that the good and evil are not alike when we "heap them together".

adley

Salaam Enquirer,

Peace adley and all. Adley,dont be too hard on yourself...just try to do the best you can,live morally and be open-minded. If you are concerned about your actions and faith that is a good indicator of genuine 'belief'.
Peace all.

Thanks for lifting up my spirit.
May God bless your kindness bro.

=adley=

adley

Salaam Naxus,

Peace to all

Good points Enquirer I agree with your every post on this thread.This is again a common weapen use by most of the religions follow us or you will end up in hell.That is the weapen of fear to scare an indiviual from his free thoughts .

I notice a change of writing style here.

=adley=

unknownuser

There is no contradiction. This has already been discussed in detail in the discussion at the following links

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5446

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812

O really. Discussion with various viewpoints. So then, whom do you think one should blindly believe in to be absolutely correct. Changing meanings and presenting various scenarios is not the same as what the Quran literally states, i.e. presenting two versions.

As far as the prophecy of Pharoah being preserved, this was already known before the Quran. Besides, there were several similar mummified bodies found. Which one of them was the actual Pharoah? Were all mummified bodies evildoers?

No such thing is said in 3522. Perhaps he got mixed up with the wrong verse. Ah, the ?mistake?, the ?mention? and the ?use? of words as ?self-reference?.

It is in 3521. That is just a typo in that article, the reasoning still stands.

The overall analysis and reasoning is still flawed as explained earlier.

Care to answer my questions/links that were poised for the top notch native Arabic speaker of all times who fails to respond in proper manner? Perhaps I am missing something or simply misunderstanding? Either way, please explain.

As I mentioned much earlier, that the Quran does contain some wisdom and so does zillion other books, magazine, movies, etc., I do not consider the book to be exact words of GOD but that of men/scribes put together as part of the then past and present events and circumstances that unfolded. I have my reasons and that's why my questions. I never said once that I disbelieve in Quran or GOD and neither does it make me a disbeliever or condemned as sensed by yours and Ahmed's posts. It doesn't bother me anyways, but sadly enough, such traits are quite common in the Muslim world, especially when it comes to Quran, where people throw verses at others condemning them to hell or making them partners to Iblis, when they themselves seem quite naive.

I understand or at least try to comptemplate on the absolute "Words of GOD" by HIS natural signs and reflection of HIS Creation and what comes and goes around within and beyond which man-made books cannot explain, not even Quran. For me, my entire realm is ONE BIG GOD's Word?

Edited.

unknownuser

Care to answer my questions/links that were poised for the top notch native Arabic speaker of all times who fails to respond in proper manner? Perhaps I am missing something or simply misunderstanding? Either way, please explain.

lol

as i said you are going to keep banging your head on the walls, there will be no serious discusions with you until you agree on my terms lol

arnoldyasin

Peace,

It is easy to just say, oh they reject it, then their going to hell. It is easy to use God's word as weapons in OUR judgement of people. Myself i believe it depends on your knowledge of the Quran and its history. For one, people get their whole life, till their death the time to investigate it. So till then, we cannot and mustn't judge people. Even when a person is 80 and rejects the Quran, as long as the person lives, we cannot judge the person, because the chance always remains God will open the persons heart. There is a lot of psychology involved in understanding Quran. When i read it 4 years ago, i turned muslim in 3 months. I know other people who only after 6 years of research accepted it. It totaly depends on the knowledge a person already has of this world.

God will judge anybody only on its means. Even the Pharoah got the chance to accept, until the moment of death, then it was to late, he had enough signs to accept it. So if God even gives the Pharaoh the chance till his death to accept, who are we to look at others differently? Believing in God is easy, we in the western world think most people in the 'modern' world do not believe in God, but this is non-sense. 95% of the people of the world believe in an afterlife, God or divinities. People reject the Quran, because it invites them to pure monotheism, that is its main goal, so people who believe in pure monotheism from other scriptures or faiths, will when they learn the Quran, see it is true. The only rejectors of the Quran, are also rejectors of pure monotheism.

There are so many people in history who were amazed by the pure monotheism that the Quran invites to. Yes, 569 says believing in God, last Day and live righteous is enough. But God tells what the defintion is. I have Christian friends who deny the trintiy in total, and have the same view of God as i have. They believe they'll be judged and try their best to live righteous. They're my brothers, more then most sunni friends i have. Because their faith comes closer to mine then most people i know, i have this also with some Jewish, Buddist and Hindu friends. So to say, you can only the right view of God from the Quran is ignorant, Abraham got that view on his own, by just thinking and looking. Pure monotheism is a born-in instinct in every human.

Yes, it would be beautifull to see them accepting Quran, but they're busy now with understanding their own books first. They've all been grown up in a idolatry enviroment. Now they see, their own books reject idolatry, and that is how they came upon pure monotheism. So now they're so focussed in understanding, it is beautifull to see. In my eyes they're not ready yet for the Quran, God is shaping them in their own paths. I used to give lectures to all different groups of faiths. I learned Hindus and Christians the monotheism in their books. They all knew i'm Muslim, but i never mentioned the Quran. One day a Hindu friend said to me;"How is it possible that you teach me all this, without ever referring to your Book?" I told him, that first he must learn his own Book, before he can understand the other ones. Monotheism is not to be found in the Quran alone, because of this he wanted to read Quran himself. People must see, that if their true monotheists, then their on the same level as Muslims, they're in a sense Muslims, submitters. The only difference with the Quran is, that the Quran is the best for the societies of now, it has the best laws and understandings for these 'modern' societies. And of course it is the only uncorrupted Book.

But saying that only followers of the Quran alone can have the right view of God, is false and ignorant. I have friends, monotheistic Christians, Hindus, Jews and so on, that have a better understanding of God, then some on this forum. Quran is the best way for better societies now, but Books as the Veda's, Bhagada-vita, Bible, Gospels of Nag-hammadi, Hermetic writings, Zend-Avesta, Monotheistic views of American indians and os on, can all give the perfect understanding of God as found in the Quran. Of these people 569 is talking about. No it is our job to show them, the Quran is the best way for todays societies, that is the difference with their Books or traditions. The Quran doesn't have the copyright on the the view of God, the Quran never claims that, it is critirion for right in wrong in societies and disputes of dogma.

Disowning of idols is one of the most important steps
A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him. They said to their people, "We disown you and the idols that you worship besides GOD. We denounce you, and you will see nothing from us except animosity and hatred until you believe in GOD ALONE." However, a mistake was committed by Abraham when he said to his father, "I will pray for your forgiveness, but I possess no power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we trust in You, and submit to You; to You is the final destiny.

A good example has been set by them for those who seek GOD and the Last Day. As for those who turn away, GOD is in no need (of them), Most Praiseworthy.

Abraham learned God without revelations, just by looking and thinking
Recall that Abraham said to his father Azar, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."
We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty
When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."
When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
"I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."
His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed?
"Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"

Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.

People forget these important verses
They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.
They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.
Any good they do will not go unrewarded. GOD is fully aware of the righteous

When they see that the Quran gives the real verion of Christiantiy and Jewism
If only the people of the scripture believe and lead a righteous life, we will then remit their sins, and admit them into gardens of bliss.
If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

We are only inviting them to a higher level
Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to worship GOD, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."

True followers of jesus
Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

They are admonished to believe int he Quran, but it is invitation to the next level, but their level is not directly wrong. So instead of judging them using the Quran, we must start inviting them using the Quran. A lot of Theology scholars around the world are starting to agree that the Quran gives the perfect impression of Jesus and they're amazed by it. Also the monotheism professed in the Quran, amazes them. People will see this Godwilling in time.

So use the beautifull words of God in the Quran to invite people, instead of using it to judge people. If the people believe in pure monotheism, they're already on a real high level of understanding. It doesn't matter then, from which road they come, we're all facing Rome, as they used to say. The Quran is only the next step to bring them higher, it is not a book of judgement, it is a Book of freedom and understanding. So, yes it is not good that they reject it, but that is mostly done by people who also reject monotheism, they reject the Quran because of what it invites to. So if people have the same ideas as in the Quran, in time they will be open to it. It of course also depends on how we invite them...........

Peace

unknownuser

Peace arnoldyasin and all. Excellent understanding ! I would add that some people are on a much higher awareness level than many 'quran only' people are, because they are following the truth which is present in their internal self and constantly learning from all sources with an open,humble mind. If you read some of buddhas stories you will see that the man is/was a genius,the same as muhammed was/is.(thats assuming they were the authors of these texts ,but thats another topic ! .) Many of the prophets,spiritual leaders,sages,holy men,philosophers,writers,scientists,sportsmen,mothers,fathers,children etc.. fall into this category. Mother theresa,martin luther,niestchze,hellen keller are more examples. However with any person or book or anything we must recognise that they all possibly can contain mistakes or be slightly incomplete. I believe the quran is a great,great book when interpreted properly,...but not the last,most complete,or best book. There are new books,science,knowledge and revelations coming all the time,the thing is to verify them and everything that you experience.
And i will tell you what the greatest book is for you,........That book is you......your true self......your conscience......your verification process......your true awareness......your true humble nature,free of illusion and false desires.....We can all strive to retain,achieve,or return to this natural state........our true purpose.......Have a safe journey.
Peace all.

Fahad1