Fate of the qur'aan rejecters
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Peace all,
Yep, such as your "proof". Easy said than done. Here's one for your to ponder upon and explain why your alleged "Words of GOD" are contradictory
Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them, they say This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say This is from you. Say All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told?
The very next verse says
Whatever benefit comes to you, it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you, to mankind as an apostle; and Allah is sufficient as a witness.There is no contradiction. This has already been discussed in detail in the discussion at the following links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5446
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812
No such thing is said in 3522. Perhaps he got mixed up with the wrong verse. Ah, the ?mistake?, the ?mention? and the ?use? of words as ?self-reference?.
It is in 3521. That is just a typo in that article, the reasoning still stands.
In the first he discards the notion of the word ?many? and in the second he conveniently takes the word ?plenty? into consideration to make it look uneven/unequal, simply because the Quran mentions that good and evil are not the same, yet the number of times both words written being the same, as per his analysis. Other flawed reasoning can easily be fetched out.
The failure of someone to follow the logic does not mean that the qur'aan is flawed but that the ability of that person to understand the logic is flawed.
The verse saying that "If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions" does not imply that the qur'aan cannot contain the phrase "many contradictions". The statement in the qur'aan is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than Allah can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun", which does not mean that a book from Allah CANNOT contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" and is not the same as saying that if a book contains the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun" it is not from Allah.
If Allah had said "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." then that would mean that a book from Allah cannot contain the phrase "Ikhtelafun Kathirun".
In the example of the number of times the words "good" and "evil" are used in the qur'aan, Danish cuts off the quote in the middle of the reasoning. The full quote is as follows
"Say The evil (al-Khabees) and the good (at-Tayyab) are not alike?(Koran 5100)"
When we come to this particular statement in the Koran on dissimilarity, the items mentioned occur an equal number of times. The word "evil (al-Khabees)," is mentioned seven times (see page 226 of the index) and the word, "the good (at-Tayyab)," seven times also (see page 432). Did the Koran fail? According to our trend above, the negative (the evil) should be one less than the positive (the good). How come "the evil" is one more than what it should be?
The Koran fails only if we cut off the statement in the middle of the sentence. The verse continues
"Say The evil and the good are not alike; EVENTHOUGH the plenty of the evil amazes you. So be careful of your duty to God, O people that understand, so that you may SUCEED (Koran 5100)"
If we are careful, just like the above statement mentions, we notice that God joins together all the evil (al-Khabees)" in the use of words, i.e. all different forms of the word and not only "the evil (al-Khabees), in order to differentiate between evil and good. Thus "evil (al-Khabees)" is separated from "good (at-Tayyab)."
"That God may separate the evil from the good and place the evil (Khabees) one upon the other also heap them ALL TOGETHER?(Koran 837)"
Now acting on the advice of the above verse in the "mention" of words, if we "heap together" all the "evil (Khabees)," in its different forms of use in the Koran, and the many root forms, we end up with sixteen times that the word "evil" is mentioned as against seven that the word "good" is mentioned. Thus the good and the evil are not alike if we "heap them together," even though the plenty (sixteen as against seven) of the "evil" amazes us.
Allah is clearly asking to "heap together" all the "evil", and if one "heaps together" all the "evil" in its different forms of use in the qur'aan, and the many root forms, one ends up with the word "evil" mentioned sixteen times as against the word "good" mentioned seven times thus showing that the good and evil are not alike when we "heap them together".
that is well explained by bro tanveermd . just as i said ,they will keep on rejecting the wonderful Koran .
peace.
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Peace arnoldyasin and all. Excellent understanding ! I would add that some people are on a much higher awareness level than many 'quran only' people are, because they are following the truth which is present in their internal self and constantly learning from all sources with an open,humble mind. If you read some of buddhas stories you will see that the man is/was a genius,the same as muhammed was/is.(thats assuming they were the authors of these texts ,but thats another topic ! .) Many of the prophets,spiritual leaders,sages,holy men,philosophers,writers,scientists,sportsmen,mothers,fathers,children etc.. fall into this category. Mother theresa,martin luther,niestchze,hellen keller are more examples. However with any person or book or anything we must recognise that they all possibly can contain mistakes or be slightly incomplete. I believe the quran is a great,great book when interpreted properly,...but not the last,most complete,or best book. There are new books,science,knowledge and revelations coming all the time,the thing is to verify them and everything that you experience.
And i will tell you what the greatest book is for you,........That book is you......your true self......your conscience......your verification process......your true awareness......your true humble nature,free of illusion and false desires.....We can all strive to retain,achieve,or return to this natural state........our true purpose.......Have a safe journey.
Peace all.this thread is about what Koran says about the fate of the rejectors . not about whether Koran is the word of God or 'complete , best and last book' . like i said people are trying to divert others from the Koran .
(Koran 7146) "I will turn away from My signs those who are proud in the earth without justice; and if they see every sign they (still) do not believe in it; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take it for a way, and if they see the way of error, they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our signs and were heedless of them."
Peace to all
Good points Enquirer I agree with your every post on this thread.This is again a common weapen use by most of the religions follow us or you will end up in hell.That is the weapen of fear to scare an indiviual from his free thoughts .Peace naxus. Thats right,people trying to scare,coerce or bully us into believing either in illusion or exactly what they believe, without proof or reason or thought for freedom of conscience.
Peace all.no fellas .
it is the unKoranic people coming to this Koranic forum ,and then trying to divert people from the Koran , instead of learning from the Koran . -
Peace all,
M. Asadi invents a new theological and unscientific approach to predicting that Quran is the Word of GOD, by his theme ?the mention of the word? ( http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm ). He finds out that both words Jesus and Adam are mentioned exactly 25 times each in the entire Quran, hence the parable of likeness.
Jesus is like Adam
The example of Jesus with God is like that of Adam. He created him from dust and said to him, "Be," and he was (Koran 359)
The meaning of the statement is clear. Jesus being born without a father is like Adam?s creation. The new "mitochondrial eve" theory of humankind?s descent gives even more credence to this comparison as it was a woman from whom the human race descended and Jesus had a mother only, as well.
However, in the mention of words, it says that the word "Jesus (Eesa)," in the Koran is like the word "Adam." It is surprising to note that indeed the word "Jesus (Eesa) " in its mention in the Koran is like the mention of the word "Adam ," Both words occur in the Koran twenty five times. Not only that, it is in the same order of succession. The verse that mentions that they are like each other is the seventh time the word "Jesus" is mentioned and the seventh time "Adam" is mentioned.
OK, fine so far.
Now, lets scrutinize his next analysis and his approach
The example of a "Dog"
"The example of him is as the example of the dog. If you attack him he pants with his tongue out and if you leave him alone he does the same. Such is the example of THE NATION WHICH DENIES OUR REVELATIONS? (7176)."
The Arabic word used for dog is "Kalb(singular)". The word for "dog" in the singular occurs in the Koran five times. The statement, "Nation which denies our revelations," occurs five times in the Koran also. Chapter 7176 is the first time the word "dog (singular)" is mentioned in the Koran (see page 614 of the above mentioned index), and the first time the statement,, "The nation which denies our revelations (page 583-584 of the index)," is mentioned. Therefore the example of the "The nation which denies our revelations" is as the example of a dog (Kalb), in the mention or words
Here, he picks only the singular form of the word ?dog? and weighs in with the entire pluralistic phrase ?the nation which denies our revelations? to become five times each. Not only has his theme changed from ?mention of the word? to ?mention of the word and combination of words?, but he conveniently leaves out the plural form ?dogs? in 54. He mixes the evil parable of dog taken from one verse and weighs in with the good side of other verses, denoting accession, inconsistent, disposition, incongruent and unbalanced analysis, not only to his previous Jesus/Adam analysis but relevant to all other mathematical thesis. Also notice that the parable mentioned in 7176 is that of a singular dog to a singular person (see verse below) and then further down in the same verse it talks about the ?likeness of people? in plural (so why disregard the ?dogs? in 54). Also notice that the phrase ?nation which denies our revelations? is a hard-headed one since there are many similar or carry the same meaning with respect to ?mention of the words? throughout the Quran.
And had We willed We could have raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his own lust. Therefor his likeness is as the likeness of a dog if thou attackest him he panteth with his tongue out, and if thou leavest him he panteth with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of the people who deny Our revelations. Narrate unto them the history (of the men of old), that haply they may take thought.
On ?the evil and the good? section, the same gibberish approach has been applied. All forms of the word ?evil? is cornered out against one form of ?good?, an imbalance to begin with. Yes, according to his trend, the word ?evil? must be less than ?good? but shockingly, his unscientific approach kicks in the words ?heap together? to balance the unbalanced and forgetting the Quran promoting more evil than good. Ain?t that right!!!
The rest of his "mention" of the word gameplay is no better than the other and especially the one with the 'breaking of verse' was quite hilarious.
just as i said ,they will keep on rejecting the wonderful Koran
Leaps and bounds, give yourself some credit.
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but he conveniently leaves out the plural form ?dogs? in 54.
(so why disregard the ?dogs? in 54).
Mister Danish
'Mukalabin', '' in 54 is not the plural of Kalb, the plural of Kalb is Kilab,
It is an adjective that means the Jawareh that has been hunted by dogs
i think you need some good arabic lessons lol
you have no point above
another consession i guess wink
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coming soon.
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but he conveniently leaves out the plural form ?dogs? in 54.
(so why disregard the ?dogs? in 54).
Mister Danish
'Mukalabin', '' in 54 is not the plural of Kalb, the plural of Kalb is Kilab,
It is an adjective that means the Jawareh that has been hunted by dogs
i think you need some good arabic lessons lol
you have no point above
another consession i guess wink
Now lets see if you can break this word '' down to "Mu-kallab-been" and give us the literal meaning. Where did you get the word "kilab" from, rather than "kallab" as pluralistically pronounced?
As a matter of fact, the singular word kalb (dog) and the plural word kallab (dogs - one "lam" being silent) in conjuntion with other words "mu' (54), "been" (54), "ul" (7176), "wa" (181, "buhum" (1818 & 1822)), are quite apparent and "kilab" is no where to be found. Who are you kidding, Ahmed.
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Now lets see if you can break this word '' down to "Mu-kallab-been" and give us the literal meaning.
If I can or if you can?
Well i can, now let's see if you managed to do it
Danish broke the adjective in a plural form "Mukallabeen", down to the followings
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Mu
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kallab
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been
Ahmed says
the above is not entirely accurate, because it shold be
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Mu
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kallab
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een
can you spot the difference?, well, Sara "my daughter" managed to spot the difference, i hope you can
but let me ask first, what breaking it up will tell us exactly mister Danish?
it is a bloody ADJECTIVE FROM THE BLOODY FIRST PLACE anyway
let me explain again
it is an adjective to describe the Jawareh, the Jawareh are like wild birds that can kill, like the eagles for example, and Jawareh is plural, that is why when we need an adjective to describe a plural we have to put the adjective in a plural form by adding the een at the end
now for the Mu at the front, this is what will makes it adjective controlled by the context of the word before it, like Maqamman Mahumoodan, it can be Mu or Ma
for Kallab which will look like this in Arabic after breaking it up ? ?, see it looks exactly the same as the singular form, with the only difference the shadda on the L, i.e. a virtual double L, this shadda is caused by the Mu, all in all that is what make the word an adjective indeed, the een at the end is only required because the adjective describe a plural noun and it can be ?oon? or even ?aat?, depends on the word it describes as well the Irab
now for you to say Ka LLa Ba is the plural of Kalb in nothing but nothing but unfounded statement that is only merited by ignorance
Where did you get the word "kilab" from,
give me a break will ya, this is what the plural of dogs are in Arabic, in fact there is no any other word for it but this word I stated, check with all the arabs you know in the world and all the dictionaries you can get hold of, I told you what it is, now you do your home work
rather than "kallab" as pluralistically pronounced?
this is funny bro it is
Ka LLa Ba
Not
K all abAre you trying to make the word ALL in it to make it plural, far out bro, or yeh we are in April, sorry
Come on bro, please tell me in your next comment that your statement was April?s fool, this is the only way it will make sense to me
cheers
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Now lets see if you can break this word '' down to "Mu-kallab-been" and give us the literal meaning.
If I can or if you can?
Well i can, now let's see if you managed to do it
Danish broke the adjective in a plural form "Mukallabeen", down to the followings
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Mu
-
kallab
-
been
Ahmed says
the above is not entirely accurate, because it shold be
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Mu
-
kallab
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een
What does your number "3) een" mean? I have no idea what you are muttering about, as usual?
In your pervious post you denied that "kallab" mean dogs and re-instated that "kilab" mean dogs. All of a sudden you twisted and changed the wordings to make it "entirely accurate". What a hoot? You still haven't answered what "Mu-Kallab-been (or een)" means?
The jury of the forum members can decide right here as to where and how this discussion is heading, let alone Ahmed's hypocrital stance. No wonder he insists to instigate his own rules.
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I guess you are blind Danish, read my bloody comment again, i answered what you blabber about fair and square, can you stop crying please?
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I guess you are blind Danish, read my bloody comment again, i answered what you blabber about fair and square, can you stop crying please?
OK, calm down.
Just answer this What does "een" mean in Arabic? Make it short and sweet.
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Peace Danish,
I believe brother Ahmed already answered this question of yours in his post
it is an adjective to describe the Jawareh, the Jawareh are like wild birds that can kill, like the eagles for example, and Jawareh is plural, that is why when we need an adjective to describe a plural we have to put the adjective in a plural form by adding the EEN at the end
The emphasis is all mine.
In his example "jawareh" is a plural meaning "wild birds that can kill" and by adding "een" to its end would make it "jawareheen" which now becomes an adjective meaning "like wild birds that can kill".
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I guess you are blind Danish, read my bloody comment again, i answered what you blabber about fair and square, can you stop crying please?
OK, calm down.
Just answer this What does "een" mean in Arabic? Make it short and sweet.
lol
ok i will have a nap soon, but befire I go
the een has no meaning indeed, it is something in arabic rules called "Gameh Muzakar Salem" or "Gameh Muanath Salem", i.e. the muscualr plural or the feminine plural, this applys in many singualr words when put in plural, like Momin and Mominoon or Momineen or Momenaat, , this is when we make plural for HUMANS
but most of the non humans plural if not all don't follow this rule, like Gawarih, which is a plural noun that means Wild Birds, and as you can see it does not have the oon, or een, or aat at the end because birds are not humans, same with most non humans things
the word that came after is an adjective because of the Mu at the front this is another rule in arabic, however another important rule is this
ALL AJECTIVES MUST HAVE THE OON, EEN, OR AAT when describing a plural even if it is not human, what will control it is the sex of what it describes as well the Irab
Sex is controlling it like this
oon and een for "Males or males and Females together"
aat for "females only"
Irab is controlling like this
oon, for dummah
een for fatiha and kasirah
aat, for dummah, fatiha and kasirah
i hope i made it short and sweet
i must have a nap now
salam
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I believe brother Ahmed already answered this question of yours in his post
it is an adjective to describe the Jawareh, the Jawareh are like wild birds that can kill, like the eagles for example, and Jawareh is plural, that is why when we need an adjective to describe a plural we have to put the adjective in a plural form by adding the EEN at the end
The emphasis is all mine.
In his example "jawareh" is a plural meaning "wild birds that can kill" and by adding "een" to its end would make it "jawareheen" which now becomes an adjective meaning "like wild birds that can kill".
We were not talking about "jawareh" here but "kalb", "kilab" and "kallab"? See how the discussion gets sidetracked and vents out. The word "kilab" is no where to be found as he points it to become a plural of "kalb" and then later he changes it to "kallab". I am aware of the prefixes and suffixes but he seperated the "een" himself to make it seem entirely accurate. My question again is, what does "een" mean itself in Arabic. If it doesn't mean anything itself, then what does it mean when joined with kallab to become kallabeen (as in jawareheen).
How is it even possible for him to discuss matters by regulations of rules and judges as he vehemnetly confesses to abide by, when simple questions asked gets carried away and becomes a mountain out of a mole, and yet a child can understand. oops Beats the heck out of me. roll
i think you need some good arabic lessons lol
O btw, keep that to yourself since you needed it more than I did. Speaks volumes about a fluent native Arabic linguistic.
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Peace Danish,
From what I gather from AhmedBahgat's earlier post is that "mu" is added before "KLB" to make it an adjective and then "een" is added to the end to signify that it is the plural form of the adjective. The "shadda" is added on the "L" when "KLB" is preceded by "mu".
All that does not mean that "KLB" with a shadda on the "L" part of "KLB", because of the "mu" before it, is the plural of the singular "KLB". The plural of "KLB" would be "KILAB".
I guess that is how the Arabic language works.
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Peace Danish,
From what I gather from AhmedBahgat's earlier post is that "mu" is added before "KLB" to make it an adjective and then "een" is added to the end to signify that it is the plural form of the adjective. The "shadda" is added on the "L" when "KLB" is preceded by "mu".
All that does not mean that "KLB" with a shadda on the "L" part of "KLB", because of the "mu" before it, is the plural of the singular "KLB". The plural of "KLB" would be "KILAB".
I guess that is how the Arabic language works.
Exactly man
Salam
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I believe brother Ahmed already answered this question of yours in his post
it is an adjective to describe the Jawareh, the Jawareh are like wild birds that can kill, like the eagles for example, and Jawareh is plural, that is why when we need an adjective to describe a plural we have to put the adjective in a plural form by adding the EEN at the end
The emphasis is all mine.
In his example "jawareh" is a plural meaning "wild birds that can kill" and by adding "een" to its end would make it "jawareheen" which now becomes an adjective meaning "like wild birds that can kill".
We were not talking about "jawareh" here but "kalb", "kilab" and "kallab"? See how the discussion gets sidetracked and vents out. The word "kilab" is no where to be found as he points it to become a plural of "kalb" and then later he changes it to "kallab". I am aware of the prefixes and suffixes but he seperated the "een" himself to make it seem entirely accurate. My question again is, what does "een" mean itself in Arabic. If it doesn't mean anything itself, then what does it mean when joined with kallab to become kallabeen (as in jawareheen).
How is it even possible for him to discuss matters by regulations of rules and judges as he vehemnetly confesses to abide by, when simple questions asked gets carried away and becomes a mountain out of a mole, and yet a child can understand. oops Beats the heck out of me. roll
i think you need some good arabic lessons lol
O btw, keep that to yourself since you needed it more than I did. Speaks volumes about a fluent native Arabic linguistic.
See Danish
debating someone like ya who posses 100% ignornace to the arabic language will be a total waste of my time
c u
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Here it is mister danish,
The noun is marked for gender (masculine and feminine), number (singular, dual, and plural), case (nominative, accusative, and genitive), and definiteness. Masculine gender is unmarked, while feminine singular nouns are usually marked with the suffix '-a(t)'. (The t is not pronounced in phrase-final position.) Arabic nouns are divided into those that have a "sound plural" (regular plural), and those with "broken plural" (irregular plural). Nouns that have a sound plural, form it with a special suffix, whereas the broken plurals are formed according to several different patterns or templates, e.g. kalb "dog" > kilaab "dogs", kitaab "book" > kutub "books", baab "door" > 'abwaab "doors". Definiteness is indicated by the article 'al- while indefiniteness is usually indicated by the suffix -n, which follows any case suffixes. Hence, al-kitaabu "the book (nom.)", kitaabun "a book (nom.)", al-kitaaba "the book (accus.)", kitaaban "a book (accus.)". The modern Arabic dialects all lack case endings and the indefinite suffix, and typically only the most competent speakers master the rules governing their use in Standard Arabic.
Taken from
http//fizzylogic.com/users/bulbul/lmp/profiles/modern-standard-arabic.html
and another one
Wednesday
For today, we have the word kalb for dog (sm). The plural is kilaab. Dogs are used as guards or for hunting but not as pets. How do you say "Our dog is gray."?taken from
http//www.arabic2000.com/arabic/public/daily04.html
someone needs to burry his head in the sand for about two days, i guess
Salam
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Peace brother tanveermd,
You wrote
619 Say "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!" Say "I do not bear witness!" Say "He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!"
1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10
So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
you wrote
Whoever rejects and denies The God's revelations is inventing a lie against The God. If we ponder and reflect upon its signs we will indeed know that it is from The God. His words affirm the truth and erase the falsehood
4224 Or do they Say "He has fabricated lies about God!" If God willed, He could have sealed your heart. And God erases the falsehood and affirms the truth with His words. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
HE in the above verse means THE PROPHET, the issues here is THOSE PEOPLE TO WHOM THE PROPHET DIRECTLY DELIVERED THE MESSAGE BUT THEY SAID HE HAS FABRICATED LIES ABOUT GOD.
To us the message has been delivered not directly by the prophet but through men/regimes. So we have to analyze and check its authenticity, and it is absolutely not the prophet whom I/we doubt, but the MEN/REGIMES through whom this message has been passed down to us.The rest of the verses you quoted talks about the punishment to those who deny the revelations of God so in my opinion ?FATE OF THE REVELATION REJECTORS should have been more appropriate as a title of this thread rather then FATE OF THE QURAN REJECTERS.
Peace.
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Peace bro agentxxx,
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10
So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
I think you are confusing "the qur'aan" for the name of the book. Al-qur'aan is a common noun meaning "the reading" and is an attribute of the book and not its proper name.
Please see the following link for an explanation of that
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
The reading (al-qur'aan) can refer to a part of the book from Allah as well as the whole of it.
The rest of the verses you quoted talks about the punishment to those who deny the revelations of God so in my opinion ?FATE OF THE REVELATION REJECTORS should have been more appropriate as a title of this thread rather then FATE OF THE QURAN REJECTERS.
Again you are confusing the reading (al-qur'aan) for the name of the book. As you must have noticed the heading of this thread says "the qur'aan" with a small q rather than the Qur'aan with a capital Q. The reading (al-qur'aan) comprises of revelations of Allah so both the phrases mean the same.
HE in the above verse means THE PROPHET, the issues here is THOSE PEOPLE TO WHOM THE PROPHET DIRECTLY DELIVERED THE MESSAGE BUT THEY SAID HE HAS FABRICATED LIES ABOUT GOD.
To us the message has been delivered not directly by the prophet but through men/regimes. So we have to analyze and check its authenticity, and it is absolutely not the prophet whom I/we doubt, but the MEN/REGIMES through whom this message has been passed down to us.The message that the prophet delivered is the reading (al-qur'aan) which is still available to us in its preserved original form. Allah has guarded the message Himself so we are getting the same message that the Prophet delivered directly to his colleagues.
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
Of course Allah does not ask us to blindly believe in everything but to use our mind, reason, and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without in addition to the reading.