salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?
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Enquirer Ok,i will start a new thread on the contradictions in the quran,and/or taking the quran as an idol. The rest of your post is basically emotion and hot air. Maybe savage carrot would like to participate as well
Before you do that, kindly try to go beyond the interpretative level which the 'far-fetched' nonsense which you throw about. That was very indicative of your poor analysis. If that's the kind of nonsense you want to play with, then please don't waste my time. If not, you're most welcome to enumerate the so-called contradictions.
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http//www28.brinkster.com/vyvyan/imgs/idols.jpg
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m
quran wrote
A prophet certainly recieved and committed al-quraan to writing. However, that process is simply deduced logically. Nothing in al-quraan tells us who that person was nor is that person relevant to our beings.so this prophet perhaps had a name?
mquran wrote
I believe the 'muhammad' mentioned 4 times in al-quraan are the personality types which any human being can achieve. I do not believe that he was only the prophet who recieved al-quraan. This is because the kalimaat and sunan of Allah do not change as do not the essence of humankind.again, do u think moosa, isa, sulayman etc mentioned in the quran are names of prophets? or are they personality types?
again, are u saying the present quran which v have is something which was revealed to multiple prophets? by saying the present quran i am not talking about the essence but the actual text!
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Salam Myr,
I noticed for some of you guys, you are having a lot of difficulties to accept the verses of Quran as clear as they are because they may sound "harsh" or "non-ethical" for the rest of the world.
I'm afraid you are right.
But the discussion in the thread was useful, wasnt it ? Personally I have learnt a lot which I couldn't otherwise learn.(For example that angels are actually our good emotions. ;D)As for your uncle,why dont you try code-19 ? If your uncle has some knowledge of probability, the miracle may help you convince him.
Btw, I happened to see one of your messages in which you are telling a "minimum" of 5 prayers per day has been mathematically proven to you.If the proof is other than the findings of A. Arik then can you plz inform me of it a little?
Peace.
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Salam ekabekir, all,
Salam Myr,
I noticed for some of you guys, you are having a lot of difficulties to accept the verses of Quran as clear as they are because they may sound "harsh" or "non-ethical" for the rest of the world.
I'm afraid you are right.
But the discussion in the thread was useful, wasnt it ? Personally I have learnt a lot which I couldn't otherwise learn.(For example that angels are actually our good emotions. ;D)As for your uncle,why dont you try code-19 ? If your uncle has some knowledge of probability, the miracle may help you convince him.
Btw, I happened to see one of your messages in which you are telling a "minimum" of 5 prayers per day has been mathematically proven to you.If the proof is other than the findings of A. Arik then can you plz inform me of it a little?
Peace.
I don't believe the angels are our good emotions if of course "good emotions" means good emotions and not God knows something else-) because in this forum defintions of words change on an ongoing basis-).
God the All-Mighty even describes their creation by two, three, and four wings so unless wings (ajnihattun in the verse) mean emotions-), I don't believe they are "good emotions". If you tell me angels make us feel good, I don't believe it either because it is God the All-Mighty only who decides or enactes in us the good and the bad feelings based on our faith in HIM, our choices, and our actions. Angels are only a means and their missions are described in Quran. Some like to call them "forces", others "emotions", but for me, I will stick with their description in the Quran-).Regarding my uncle, I have never preached to him and that's why I re-posted what I really wrote about him to show how what we sometimes write can be distorded. In fact, I have never preached to my family but answered their questions when they needed to understand certain events happening in the islamic world or related to Islam. My uncle discovered the Quran before me and studied it much deeper ahead before me. He knew about the 19 code and he was the one who actually asked me to look at it and compare it with some studies by some Jewish scholars. Seriously Brother, I try to worry about my neck only and not his. I brought his example only to show that some people would openly reject the Quran revelation even when they ontheir own, come across it and in details. Now it turned out that a preacher is needed and that a blame for rejecting the guidance can be put on the preacher-) poor prophets and messengers, the majority who rejected their message can now blame it on their failure to convey the message while the minority who believed had maybe an extra sense of listening!!
For the prayers per day, it is the work/findings of Dr. Fazly that I know based on the Quran, but remember, the more we pray the better it is for our soul. And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
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The quran says it is a clear book,yet 1400 years later people are still debating what salat,hajj,prophethood is etc... . shock roll
Peace
What do you mean that the Quran says it is a clear book?, i guess what clear meant to you?
Thanks
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salam
I don't believe the angels are our good emotions
Neither do I.That's why I put the smily ;D
peace
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Peace be upon you Myr,
NO need to be sarcastic Kyle
No offense intended, just trying to put this in the right context. Tryin to demystify this "character type" that many have has made into the Holy Savior.
please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran.
The title of the thread indicates we are talking about this man 1400 years ago that none of us met or can prove. I dont doubt that there was an enlightened person who brought spirituality to people, but I dont suspect his name was Muhammad, nor do I think it matters what his name was. What is important is the message, which is meant to teach us that we ALL have the ability to intuit the God's message within.
If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I trust in that which is descended upon me and those before me, not just a book called "Koran", just as that book says I should. Yet so many uphold this book as the only source of guidance as if they have never read that verse. Nor the verse that states not to go after that which you have NO KNOWLEDGE. I have never met nor seen proof of the man named Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, so I will not bear witness to such a thing. I can only follow the universal laws which can be verified in everyday experience and by doing so I automatically am following the God's messengers, those we are told about and those we are not. The word "muhammad" is a charater type we must emulate, not a human we must follow.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us
The only book to worry about is the book that is always in front of us , so that we may verify it. It as only one verse, the UNI-VERSE. All other writings are composed from that. This is why the God always points us to the universe;
"We shall show you the signs in the horizons to within your spirits until yuo KNOW it is the truth"
and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above
Please elaborate.
therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth.
I disagree. The messengers were all sent with the same message, Universal Law. Someone wrote this book called "Koran" to help others understand this. Just as people wrote other books for the same purpose. If one gets to the goal by other means the reward is still the same. Just as this "Koran" states that no matter what you call yourself, if you believe in the God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-)
All that we need IS in front of us. All humans from the beginning until now, in all places of the earth are enlightened by the same Sun in the sky.
Peace and Blessings to you as well.
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Peace idolfree. Very well explained. ) Whoever tries to follow the true universal laws will be a peaceful person.(muslim.) No need for extra illogical beliefs or harmful rituals...A persons' peaceful/rational behaviour mirrors his beliefs,not the other way round with arbitrary/illogical articles of faith which can lead to questionable behaviour...
A person who lives his/her life peacefully and rationally will be successful(relatively speaking.) even if they dont believe/accept/follow literally muhammed,jesus,the quran,or even the god concept(fake one.) of the theologians and sectarians.
Peace all. Ps; logically not even half of the literal beliefs from the quran stand up to scrutiny and verification,but our own experiences of ourselves interacting with the universe can surely be validified,and verified first hand. -
it is not just an issue of quran being word of god...the existence of angels and djinns...the existence of muhammad...but perhaps more of an issue of monotheism against other 'theisms'! those who believe in other 'theisms' would like to believe that everything is symbolic...and that humans can attain to 'godhood'...some do admit to this...others do not!
more or less the arguments used is the same as that which those who denied muhammad and the message did proofs for quran...why did angels not accompany muhammad....why do they not see god plainly...throughout the ages amny of those who turned away from god have used the same excuses! ;D
but the quran makes it quite clear that they have to follow that which has been revaled to muhammad and not that which their nafs tells them to! ;D
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Peace be upon you Myr,
I think Brother we are repeating the same thing again and again. The majority here agrees that we are not talking about the person but the prophethood of that person and nobody is taking him as a "holy savior", we should stick to the subject of this debate. Whether you don't want to call him Mohamed, but "an enlightened person" instead (as per your own message below), this won't change the subject of this debate nor the fact that the Quran was revealed to someone whose name was Mohamed and Quran narrates even part of his life.
The highlighted sections are conflicting. I have verified enough of this reaading(quran) to state that an enlightened person wrote it, none of us can confirm his name. The word "muhammad" is as much a name in regards to this book as "ahmad". (...whose name shall be ahmad...)
And please don't come to tell me that this is tradition or sunni or God knows what else-) for me there is no word gymnastics for the clear verses, Mohamed is Mohamed-).
..whose name shall be ahmad..
As for the debate on Mohamed name meaning and the meanings of Moses, Jesus etc. and that instead of names these are characters and God knows what else-- I am sorry -- it does not make sense to me-).
Respected.
But again, let us agree to disagree as each of us is entitled to his/her own understanding of the issue.
Sure, but we will never get any unity out of agreeing to disagree. Debate will show truth from falsehood.
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hello idolater
Just as this "Koran" states that no matter what you call yourself, if you believe in the God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
Don't talk bunk
Koran also states that those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and those who believe in trinity are in true kafirs (rejectors).
So acc. to Koran Pope John Paul II for instance is nothing but a Hell Creature.
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Whoever tries to follow the true universal laws will be a peaceful person.(muslim.) No need for extra illogical beliefs or harmful rituals...A persons' peaceful/rational behaviour mirrors his beliefs,not the other way round with arbitrary/illogical articles of faith which can lead to questionable behaviour...
A person who lives his/her life peacefully and rationally will be successful(relatively speaking.) even if they dont believe/accept/follow literally muhammed,jesus,the quran,or even the god concept(fake one.) of the theologians and sectarians.
Peace all. Ps; logically not even half of the literal beliefs from the quran stand up to scrutiny and verification,but our own experiences of ourselves interacting with the universe can surely be validified,and verified first hand.hi,
It is not you but Allah who has determined the criteria for salvation.The rest is nothing but your wishful thinking.
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Peace Kestrel,
What's with the name-calling. ???
How about providing ayat to support your position so we may all learn?
Here are some that support what Kyle has stated
4122 As for those who believe and do good work, We will admit them gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they will abide therein. God's promise is truth; and who is more truthful in saying than God?
569 "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
1630-31 And it was said to those who were righteous "What has your Lord sent down?" They said "All goodness." For those who have done good in this world there is good, and the Hereafter is even better. Excellent indeed is the home of the righteous. The gardens of Eden, which they will enter, with rivers flowing beneath, in it they will have what they wish. It is such that God rewards the righteous.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Hi tay,
You are the guy claiming "angels are good emotions", arent you?
D ;D D ;D D ;D
then how do you explain the following verse
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
How can our good emotions submit to Adam? ;D ;D
Here are some that support what Kyle has stated
4122 As for those who believe and do good work, We will admit them gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they will abide therein. God's promise is truth; and who is more truthful in saying than God?
569 "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
1630-31 And it was said to those who were righteous "What has your Lord sent down?" They said "All goodness." For those who have done good in this world there is good, and the Hereafter is even better. Excellent indeed is the home of the righteous. The gardens of Eden, which they will enter, with rivers flowing beneath, in it they will have what they wish. It is such that God rewards the righteous.
Do you really think these verses support Kyle.You are incredible bro. ;D ;D ;D.Dont you have any Quranic knowledge ?
To cut short, I give you a single verse.Think on it,okay.
2177 Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
Btw,you can call me edip.
peace
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Peace Edip,
You are the guy claiming "angels are good emotions", arent you?
I'm glad you got a kick out of that, although, that does not encompass my entire understanding.
then how do you explain the following verse
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
How can our good emotions submit to Adam?
It's pretty simple, actually. When a person experiences good, what follows is a good emotion.
Now your turn...
what is an angel and how does it submit to Adam?
Do you really think these verses support Kyle.You are incredible bro. .Dont you have any Quranic knowledge ?
To cut short, I give you a single verse.Think on it,okay.
How about just addressing the ayat I posted Mr. Quranic Knowledge??
Peace,
Tay -
salam friend,
what is an angel and how does it submit to Adam?
Tay, sorry but this is a silly question.
We humans are to believe in the existence of angels and that they submitted to Adam as Quran clearly tells us these.However we can never know the nature of angels or what they are made of or how they submitted to Adam as angels are beings that we cant perceive or measure or on which we can perform controllled lab experiments or whatever.They dont belong to our world.Therefore we are not able to know or to verify them.We can only believe in them as Quran says they exist.
Your understanding from verse 1736 is completely wrong.
How about just addressing the ayat I posted Mr. Quranic Knowledge??
Well let's have a look at verse 569
569 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
It seems that acc. to the verse, a christian who believes in trinity and lead a righteous life will attain salvation.This is also what Kyle wants to imply.
Let's take another verse from Quran
573 Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
It is obvious that acc. to verse 573 our christian friend is a hell creature, isn't he?
Do the verses contradict?
Or is it misleading when you choose and interpret a single verse (or a few verses) from Quran?
peace
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Salam ekarabekir, all,
Your understanding is correct from the clear verses. No salvation without believing in this entire Quran and thus the messenger who conveyed its message, that is, the prophet Mohamed.
That is why it is part of shadah to give the witness that Muhammad is prophet of Allah,,,
But I think free-minds dont accept this give fake reason of idolizing the prophet. When we clearly say that Muhammd is Rasool (Prophet) or Allah then it means accepting him as prophet, it does not mean that aeccepting him as God ( However, a Moron can say some other interpretation).Regards.
ViratualEye -
tay wrote
It's pretty simple, actually. When a person experiences good, what follows is a good emotion.dunn mind but i dont see how that answers the question which was asked? -/
myr wrote
I think Brother you are confusing the issue. Prophethood is not attesting in the shahada that Mohamed is rassoul, if you do that and you want to be in harmony with what we are commanded to believe as truth in Quran, that is, we can NOT distinguish among any messengers, you will have to also attest that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, and all the messengers we were told and we were NOT told, are also messenger of God. Beside that, it is very important to understand that the shahada format well spread among the meanstream is NOT in the Quran and even ironically, there is a verse that mentions the hypocrites (munafikeen) who came to the prophet to attest that he was a rassoul while God the All-Mighty knows he was a rassoul. So we have to be very carefull to NOT utter things that may be in conflict with Quran and in particular how ALL the messengers should be considered. Prophethood is a mission given to a man of character chosen by the All-Mighty and for that particular choice, denying that man a mission is to say he is not a messenger, however shahada is for God and not the messengers based on my understanding of the Quran. And God the All-Mighty knows best.agreed that the 'shahada' of faith is la ilaha illallah...however to believe in the prophethood of muhammad...of jesus...of moses...in all the messengers and prophets..not allowing some and rejecting others...to believe in the angels...the last day...the books...and whatever that the quran has commanded to believe in is part of faith ! so though it is not the elementary part in the sense that 'la ilaha illallah' is that which has been the message of all prophets...it is no wrong to attest to prophethood of the messengers as attested to by the quran! as a muslim u do not say u believe in quran but u do not believe in muhammad or jesus or abraham...it is a part of faith! as for hypocrites attesting to muhammad being the messenger of god is it not evident that they were insincere? they thought by simply openly claiming to have believed in muhammad's prophethood their evil would remain concealed...but god doeth remind them that it is very well informed of that which they proclaim and their true state hypocrites! -)