Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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peace savage-carrot,
Sc wrote
Now what is the inconsistency with the verses? That weighing and recording is not given in the same place FOR PEOPLE WHO PREFER TO READ ONE SURA INSTEAD OF THE BOOK.
What if I post 50% of my reply here, 25% in hadiths discussion section and 25% in the off topic section? how easy it would be for you to understand? And then also come up with the logic ?for people who prefer to read one post/reply instead of the whole forum?
And do you mean a sura cannot be understood unless we read the whole book?
- Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.
So To understand the above verse we also have to read the story of Solomon and the ant, the talking hoopoe? Or gog magog or the people of the cave etc? And Please tell me the secret to know about the preferences of other people?
Sc wrote
The only problem you have here is behind their back?
No, that is not the only problem?
- And We have indeed made the Qur'an EASY TO UNDERSTAND ?
sc-I am at a loss to explain why its so difficult unless there is some other motivation?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5426.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5407.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4659.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1057.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3684.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5484.0By looking at the different topics of discussion at this forum, I am at loss to understand IN WHAT WAY IT?S SO EASY? You know about the preferences of others, so surely you must also be familiar with the motives .
God bless you,
Peace. -
Peace agentxxx. Yes i agree,how is the book clear when we cant even agree on the word islam,salat,hajj,right hand posession etc?... .If we were to be honest the book is only as good as the person reading it,this is why idol-frees interpretations are sometimes superb,while some of tanvermeds,mqurans,zenjes or abs etc.. are inhumane.
Its funny that savage carrot has to resort to questioning peoples motives when a difficult question comes along...I wonder if she has questioned her own motives?
peace all. ps;quran+logic/conscience=good applicable general guidelines.
Quran+no conscience/no logic=oppression and inhumaneness. ) -
Peace agent,
What if I post 50% of my reply here, 25% in hadiths discussion section and 25% in the off topic section? how easy it would be for you to understand? And then also come up with the logic ?for people who prefer to read one post/reply instead of the whole forum?
That's why one shouldn't jump to conclusions and claim it's so difficult and unclear, if one doesn't have all or most of the pieces of the 'puzzle' with them. Here is how I see it, some like to talk about the motivations of say, Mr. Darcy without reading the whole of Pride and Prejudice.
And do you mean a sura cannot be understood unless we read the whole book?
Of course a sura can be understood, and so can a simple verse. For one, the issue was why is it in different places and second the issue now is what about a person who only has time to read one sura, tho poor sod won't get the chance to understand! I say, take the time, read the whole book, put it together with reason and experience of life along with inspiration. The ones who judge and/or try to understand it hastily or with bias will not understand and things will be muddy. This holds true for most of what one does
So To understand the above verse we also have to read the story of Solomon and the ant, the talking hoopoe? Or gog magog or the people of the cave etc? And Please tell me the secret to know about the preferences of other people?
Yes, we read the whole book with the intent to learn. Once dubious motivations creep in along with arrogance like 'I know better than this! This is ancient history far below my intellectual level'...thats when things start messing up. It's the intent and will to learn, some things will not get clearer right away, it may take time, patience and sincerety.
By looking at the different topics of discussion at this forum, I am at loss to understand IN WHAT WAY IT?S SO EASY? You know about the preferences of others, so surely you must also be familiar with the motives
You obviously have not visited many forums. Try the matrix forums. It's not the book once again. Yes, I am familiar with the motives, sadly.
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You like,zenje and savage carrot seem very immature and defensive.
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while some of tanvermeds,mqurans,zenjes or abs etc.. are inhumane.
Amazing! They are inhumane now. Who's demonzing who?!?
Its funny that savage carrot has to resort to questioning peoples motives when a difficult question comes along...I wonder if she has questioned her own motives?
Wonder away! My motives are clear as the waters of the carribbean, before they started throwing beer bottles in that is. -* -*
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Peace savage carrot. I said some of their interpretations were inhumane,not them.
You have a very high opinion of your own motivations?...After you misquote me,i wonder if theres any substance to your claims of clear motivation? ) -
I said some of their interpretations were inhumane,not them.
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Quran+no conscience/no logic=oppression and inhumaneness
I suppose the conscience is not part of them or their interpretations then? Pray tell where does it come from?
After you misqoute me,
Right...pay more attention to what you write.
i wonder if theres any substance to your claim of clear motivation?
I'm a little teapot, short and stout. -* -*
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Peace savage carrot. The conscience is a part of everyone...but some choose to ignore it. Thus some interpretations come from the ego...Like some of your posts... You come across as very immature.
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The conscience is a part of everyone...but some choose to ignore it.
Oh right, thus the interpretations not based on 'conscience' are not really indicative of the person?
Thank you for all the personal comments, I am really feeling the 'love', 'openmindedness' and 'tolerance' from you -* -*
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You know, enquirer, if the book's not clear to you... doesn't mean it's not clear. ;D
If you interpret the verses to be inhumane, when I made no comment after posting the verses (no footnotes/no interpretations from me), then perhaps you need to look deep into yourself, and you might just find the answer.
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Peace savage carrot and zenje.
savage carrot;everybodies naturally state is to be 'moral',but we have the free-will to ignore this state..hence people in the world who are immoral in behaviour and thought. From what i read,some of the posters interpretations are immoral,as for whether they are immoral in their general overall behaviour, well i dont know enough about them...
As for you feeling the love...Well sometimes you have to use tough love,or be cruel to be kind... And you of all people should read some of your own sarcastic,irrelevant,sectarian posts.
Zenje;The verses are inhumane sometimes,when taken literally. (hence all the re-interpretations and modifications of verses on the forum,along with the symbolic interpretations.).And to be frank i think you are just hiding behind this book you consider to be perfect... Why dont you take responsibility for what you quote...or did allah say it?
As for clear book,well is the forum full of clear,coherent,consistent,verifiable interpretations of salat,god,hajj,masjid-ul-haram,hand-chopping,lashes,slave women,etc...?
Yes you can remind yourself of some great morals (especially if the quran is taken relatively,symbolically,mystically and with your OWN conscience/experiences/input.) with the quran,but as for it being all clear,literally speaking,well if people are honest,thats the last thing it is at times.
Peace all. Ps;i look within myself very frequently,because thats where the answers are...not just in a book -
Peace zenje. Dont you mean you believe its allahs words? And also take responsibility,because how do you know allah meant the words you quoted,as you quoted them in an english translation? If a sunni in defence of hadith quotes 'follow god and follow the messenger', he can say this is how allah meant it,and they are allahs words? Be real...its your opinion. ) Im sure you would say,dont attribute to allah what you dont really know?
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Peace enquirer,
Dont you mean you believe its allahs words?
I mean exactly what I said... I know it's the God's words.If a sunni in defence of hadith quotes 'follow god and follow the messenger', he can say this is how allah meant it,and they are allahs words?
No problem, he can believe what he wants, and I will not fight him for it.Be real...its your opinion.
Again, I just quoted some verse without explanation, you can take the original arabic, you can choose to read Yusuf Ali's translation, you can decide to translate it yourself and interpret it as you will, no problem. The words of quran are not mine, neither are they my "opinion". That's real.Im sure you would say,dont attribute to allah what you dont really know?
Yes I would. But if there's any confusion, please refer to my first sentence in this post.Thanks. )
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Peace zenje,bmbmm and all. Even if the quran is clear and gods words(which i dont necessarily agree with.) how come after 1400 years we still dont know half of it,and we are still discussing salat,hajj,slaves etc.. How come the 'quran only' community is not exactly at the forefront of world affairs or making great contributions to science and civilisation? How long has 'quran only' existed? Did all the previous generations get it wrong? Give me a few examples of success from the 'quran only' community? whats the use of gods words if nobody properly understands it,or no peace/success is achieved through it? Im sure many sincere people have tried to interpret the quran and still come up with little consensus....A book that we can all be divided with. )
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savage carrot;everybodies naturally state is to be 'moral',but we have the free-will to ignore this state..hence people in the world who are immoral in behaviour and thought. From what i read,some of the posters interpretations are immoral,as for whether they are immoral in their general overall behaviour, well i dont know enough about them...
If you can judge someone's interpretation by stating it's inhumane then by association you are judging the person's mindset/mind at the time as well, which is a part of them as people. There is no twisting away from this fact. It's obvious. This goes for all the choice statements about people that you have peppered your posts with.
As for you feeling the love...Well sometimes you have to use tough love,or be cruel to be kind... And you of all people should read some of your own sarcastic,irrelevant,sectarian posts.
Tough love? Cruel to be kind? Maybe you should change the labels you keep tacking in your posts to reflect that 'nuance'. Sarcasm is better than holier than thou preaching, and irrelevant are your personal comments. Sectarian? Whoo boy, you really caught me out here!
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Peace savage carrot. So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral? Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?) Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
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So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral?
Immaturity is immoral? Low intellectual 'output' is immoral? Do tell.
Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?)
Sure, preaching does get boring like your posts do. Remind me of the other stuff you wrote when I go to a 'sunni' site and start preaching, or like you when I start preaching the quran is a man's interpretation of reality in a forum which espouses God alone through the quran which they deem God's words.
Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
You seem obsessed with the quran, and those that follow it. Explains a lot.
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Peace zenje,bmbmm and all. Even if the quran is clear and gods words(which i dont necessarily agree with.) how come after 1400 years we still dont know half of it,and we are still discussing salat,hajj,slaves etc..
Is that the book's fault?How come the 'quran only' community is not exactly at the forefront of world affairs or making great contributions to science and civilisation?
Is that the goal?How long has 'quran only' existed?
From the beginning.Did all the previous generations get it wrong?
Does it matter? Do we answer for previous generations? Done is what they did.Give me a few examples of success from the 'quran only' community?
What's success? Wealth? Numbers?whats the use of gods words if nobody properly understands it,or no peace/success is achieved through it?
If people don't follow it, how will anything be achieved through it?Im sure many sincere people have tried to interpret the quran and still come up with little consensus....
Are you really sure? Or is this conjecture? You know what's in other people's hearts and minds now, do you?Peace
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Peace savage-carrot,
Sc-That's why one shouldn't jump to conclusions and claim it's so difficult and unclear,
Not The fundamentals but the allegorical verses and there are lots of them.
Sc-if one doesn't have all or most of the pieces of the 'puzzle' with them. Here is how I see it, some like to talk about the motivations of say, Mr. Darcy without reading the whole of Pride and Prejudice.
That is the problem? when it come to picking up the pieces of the puzzle and painting a picture, we all do it in our own way, according to our own understand and knowledge, hence their will always be a difference of opinion and we have to acknowledge and respect that.
Sc-Of course a sura can be understood, and so can a simple verse. For one, the issue was why is it in different places and second the issue now is what about a person who only has time to read one sura, tho poor sod won't get the chance to understand! I SAY, TAKE THE TIME, READ THE WHOLE BOOK, PUT IT TOGETHER WITH REASON AND EXPERIENCE OF LIFE ALONG WITH INSPIRATION
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Sis dear, you love to assume ? Your analysis is, that who so ever is skeptical about the book, HE HAS ONLY READ ONE SURA AND THAT POOR SOD HAS NEVER USED REASONING AND EXPERIENCE OF HIS LIFE ALONG WITH THE INSPIRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK? This dear sis is a typical statement made by all THE TRUE BELIEVERS D, the reality is the other way round, I have seen that the majority of the people who claim the book to be perfect, are those who have never bothered to read the book at all, or they read it in Arabic only.Sc-The ones who judge and/or try to understand it hastily or with bias will not understand and things will be muddy.
Logical.
Sc-Yes, we read the whole book with the intent to learn.
Agreed, and according to my understanding there is nothing else to learn from the book except the code of ethics.
Sc-Once dubious motivations creep in along with arrogance like 'I know better than this! This is ancient history far below my intellectual level'...thats when things start messing up.
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
Sc-It's the intent and will to learn, some things will not get clearer right away,
Right, but when things get clear, they change your old understandings/concepts and replace them with the new ones, and it?s a constant never ending process.
Sc- it may take time, patience and sincerety.
That the way it is sis ).
God bless you.
Peace.