Mind Boggling!!!
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597 is about war booty isn't it?
Ma afaa Allahu AAalarasoolihi min ahli alqura falillahi walilrrasooliwalithee alqurba waalyatama waalmasakeeniwaibni alssabeeli kay la yakoona doolatanbayna al-aghniya-i minkum wama atakumualrrasoolu fakhuthoohu wama nahakumAAanhu faintahoo waittaqoo Allaha inna Allahashadeedu alAAiqabi
What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.
...and s/he accuses us of picking what we want and disregarded what we don't want.
I'm not sure mana will be around to respond, though.
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Peace,
First of all, this site is run by a person from Saudi-Arabia, and because the muslims there don't follow the Quran, they blocked the site, this is why the real admin works through a person from new-zealand. If the home of Mecca would have followed the Quran, by respecting other views, this wouldn't have taken place. So who is following the sunna of God?
- There is no compulsion in matter of faith. Distinct is the way of guidance now from error. He who turns away from the forces of evil and believes in God, will surely hold fast to a handle that is strong and unbreakable, for God hears all and knows everything.
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I have been here before and I still don't understand this place. As far as I can tell, its people who have chosen Islam but have taken from it what they want and disregarded what they don't want. Like religion is a buffet and you eat what you like.No, here there are many individuals who don't take the effort to learn arabic and study history and psychology, otherwise there would have been some more consistency on certain subjects. But on this site a lot of different thinking minds are allowed, that is democracy and freedom. And it can be confusing for some.
There is no compulsion in religion and thinking (2256). For people like you who have been brought up in a enviroment where people don't like different thinking people, i can imagine it is hard to understand here people don't just follow the rules blindly, they want answers. And still then sometimes it is not enough, but that is the freedom God has given every individual and is their responsibility. The Quran is clear, but people approach from different angles, or depended purely on translations. The Quran is a Guide for the individuals as for societies. That people differ about the individual rules is their right, but on the society rules we mostly agree. And there are people on this site, who don't follow the Quran directly or even see it as a revelation, but still want to exchange ideas. Which is their right. Do you want to force people in believing your point of view? Do you think that in the followers of the sunnas(yes, sunnas, there is no 1 sunna) there is any consistency? Go to sites from different countries, Tunish, Marroco, Turkey, Arabia; go to sites from different schools, Malik, Hanifa, Shafi'i, Hanbal, and you will see that people throw contradicting hadith to one another to make their point. There is more picking and choosing in the Hadith books, then from the different angles of approaching Quran.
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One thing that really bothers me is the distinction between the hadith and the Quran. You people have disregarded the hadith and focus entirely on the Quran. That is how you can justify the drinking of alcohol and other things that are prohibited.No, they can't justify it, they want to, but they can't. But that is their responsibility. The Quran is clear enough on the subject. The thing is in your first part, you said people can pick what they want. I have a question for you Why are there more then 4 major schools that all differ on Hadith? Why does every school take what they want? Then you're gonna say only 1 school is the right one. Why then are all 4 schools declared good? Every muslimcountry follows different Hadith. Also Saudi-Arabia has changed their ideas about which Hadith and which not. There is no consistency in their following sunna. You quote certain Hadith about sunna, ok, how do you know you follow the right sunna? There are more then 10 different sunna's at the major schools, which were you brought up with? God says that we must investigate everything we believe, i have investigated Hadith, and they are mostly old scholar opinions turned into sayings of Muhammed, most are copied from the Bible or Persian liturgy.
Only around 150 years after the prophet did people start to care about an isnad, people before that never even asked about that. And then suddenly isnads appear, just make up a link to the prophet and people will follow it.Here are some quotes from the famous Hadith scholars themselves
Muhammed b Sirin (d.110/72 said, 'This information one is collecting is religion. So consider good from whom you accept your religion.'
As'Abdallah b.al-Mubarak is reprted saying,'The Isnad is a part of religion. But for it (for the isnad demand), anyone could say whatever he pleased.'
Ibn Sirin also said,'They used not to bother to ask for the Isnad. But when civil dissension broke out, they would say,'Name your men', then examine which people were of the sunna and accept their reports, and which were people of the new ways and reject their reports.'
So the isnad was only asked after the civil wars broke out, before that anyone could say what they wanted without people asking proof. If certain information was passed on for at least a 100 years without people asking isnads, how then suddenly could people know the isnads a 100 years later?
IMAM RAZI'S CONFESSION
Most Muslims have heard of one of the most ancient and famous Tafseer-e-Kabeer (The Great Exposition of the Qur'an) by Imam Razi. This tafseer is one of
the tops being followed by our Mullahs till this day. After writing his 300 volumes, the great and authoritative Imam confesses "All my intellectual and supposedly logical statements in the explanation of the Qur'an turned out to be lame. All the explanations of the Qur'an done by the so-called Imams (Tabari, Zamakhshari, Ibne Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim etc) are misguided and misleading. All of us were the tools of Satan. Our souls were polluted by our physical desires. Our efforts of this world promise to bring us nothing but torture and doom."This is how Tabari's book on the history on prophets and kings begin, isn't it strange to say this if they have investigated these isnads. And remember, Tabari is one of the main sources for sunna and history?And remember, almost all Hadith, like Tabari, were non-arabs.
IMAM TABARI'S STRANGE CONFESSION
'I am writing this book as I hear from the narrators. If anything sounds absurd, I should not be blamed or held accountable. The responsibility of all errors or blunders rests squarely on the shoulders of those who have narrated these stories to me.'Tabari's Tareekhil Umam Wal Mulook (The History of Nations and Kings) popularly called "Mother of All Histories" is the first ever "History of Islam" written by 'Imam' Tabari (839-923 CE) at the junction of the third and fourth century AH. He died in 310 AH, 3 centuries after the Prophet (S). What were his sources? Not a scrap of paper! "He told me this who heard it from him who heard it from so and so," and so on. By compiling his 13 volume History and his 30 volume Exposition of the Qur'an under royal patronage. Almost all famous Hadith scholars worked directly for a person with political power.
IBN KATHIR'S CONFESSION
Had Ibn Jareer Tabari not recorded the strange reports, I would never have done so. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Khilaafat-e-Mu'awiya-o-Yazeed, Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi)IMAM AHMAD BIN HANBAL'S CHASTISEMENT
Allama Shibli Nomani, on page 27 of his Seeratun Nabi has given a startling quote of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), "Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghazi, Malahem and Tafseer? (The exalted Prophet's Battles, Dreams and Prophecies, and Expositions of the Qur'an).IBN KHALDOON'S THRASHING
The Muslim historians have made a mockery of history by filling it with fabrications and senseless lies. (Muqaddama)SHAH ABDUL AZIZ'S CRITIQUE
Six pages of Ibn Khaldoon's History have been deliberately removed since the earliest times. These pages had questioned the most critical juncture of Islamic history i.e. the Emirate of Yazeed and the fiction of Karbala.SHAH WALIULLAH'S CHASTISEMENT
Imam Jalaluddin Sayyuti's Tarikh-ul-Khulafa is the prime example of how our Historians, Muhaddithin and Mufassirin, each has played like Haatib-il-Lail (The man who collects firewood at night not knowing which piece is good and which one is bad).IMAM RAGHIB'S PROTEST
Tabari, Waqidi, Mas'oodi, Sayyuti pasted any reports they got hands on. Moreover, Abu Mukhnif, Lut bin Yahya and Muhammad bin Saaeb Kalbi (in whose names the civil wars within Islam during the times of Hazraat Ali, Mu'awiya and Yazeed are reported) never existed. Their names have been concocted and narratives in their names have all been invented by one man, the Zoroastrian "Imam" Tabari bin Rustam.Buchari, Muslim, Tabari, imam Razi, were all Persian, non-arabs. And imam Razi, one of the first Hadith collectors and the main source of most Hadith, was a shi'a, who also lied that he came from Medina, while he came from Kufoor. Imam Shafi'i was the first that made the collected Hadith obligatory, how can that be if they were obligatory from the start? How then could an imam make them an obligation 150 years later?
One man came to 'Abdallah b. Abbas and began, 'The prophet said this, the prophet said that'. Ibn Abbas paid no attention, so the man said,'I'm telling you from the prophet and you're paying no attention to my reports'. Ibn Abbas replied,'There was a time, before lies were being fathered on the prophet, when we exchanged hadith from him. But, when people started going in this direction and that, we gave up reporting Hadith from him.'
Ibn Abbas said,'After Ali's death, they invented all manner of things which wrang from one associates,'Damn these people! They have perverted so much religious information.'
In stead of trusting blindly on the truthfulness of your imams that the Hadith are to be trusted, i would focus on what the scholars said in those times, because then you would see, people were fighting over what was true and what not. The Quran is the criterion of what is true or not, so anything that goes against the Quran, or is not found in it, must be discarted. And what you have left must be looked upon with doubt, as God says in the Quran
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (1736)
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.(482)
And we both know, the Hadith books contain many contradictions....
Also in the Quran, is the word 'hadith' already used by God, let's see how he uses itAmong them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly. (37
Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in? (7185)
In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe. (12111)
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? (456)
Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?(7750)
And let's see what God says about the completeness of the Quran
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That is how We have made for each apostle opponents, the satans among men and jinns, who inspire one another with deceitful talk. But if your Lord had willed they would not have done so. Pay no attention to them and to what they fabricate.
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Let those who do not believe in the life to come, listen to it and be pleased with it, and let them gain what they may gain.
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(Say) "Then should I seek (the source of) law elsewhere than God, when it is He who has revealed this Book to you, which distinctly explains everything?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it has been sent by your Lord in truth. So be not a sceptic.
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Perfected are the laws of your Lord in truth and justice, and there is no changing His laws. He is all-hearing and all-knowing.
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If you follow the majority of people on the earth, they will lead you astray from the path of God, for they follow only conjecture and surmise.
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There is not a thing that moves on the earth, no bird that flies on its wings, but has a community of its own like yours. There is nothing that We have left out from recording. Then they will all be gathered before their Lord.
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Those who deny Our revelations are deaf, dumb, and lost in the dark. God sends whosoever He wills astray, and leads whom He will to the straight path.
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And We put covers over their hearts and deafness in their ears that they should not understand it. So when you invoke your Lord in the Qur'an alone they turn their backs and walk away.
Study this verse with the placement of the word 'wahadu' as in verse 3945, and you will see that the Quran itself says, using the Quran ALONE.
On the Last day, the Prophet will say that the people has chained the Quran
The prophet will say "O my Lord, my people had fettered the Qur'an." (2530)
(A horse or camel tied head to foot was called mahjoor, and the rope used for tying, al-hijaar(Taj). The Quran today is thus fettered by custom and tradition, hearsay reports compiled centuries later, and laws and by-laws enacted by men, each group having its own fiqah and shariah, which are held more sacrosanct and given predence over the Quran)Ahmed Ali, scholar and translator of the Quran.
And it is interresting that the same verse can also mean
"O my Lord, my people has deserted this Quran."
And also
"O my Lord, my people has treated this Quran has something to be avoided."You quoted this verse
"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah truly Allah is severe in punishment. "
But you only took half the verse! This is verse 7
597. Whatever booty God gives to His Apostle from the people of the cities, is for God and His Apostle, the near relations, the orphans, the needy and wayfarers, so that it does not concentrate in the hands of those who are rich among you. Accept what the Apostle gives you, and refrain from what he forbids, and take heed for yourself and fear God. Surely God is severe of retribution.We pick and choose what we want?
So before you judge us, and think we all agree with each other on some subjects, first investigate your own people, before you start pointing the finger at us. Read this also, if is bullshit it doesn't matter if you read it or not, if it is true, well then maybe it is part of the outcome of your soul....
http//www.quran.org/library/articles/ahmad0.htm
If people follow the Quran alone, there wouldn't be so many sects and hate is is now in Islam. There wouldn't be so much unrightiousness in the muslim countries. There would be freedom and freethinking, like it was in the first centuries of islam. Where the difference in thinking gave the best outcome, not hate as it does now, because when people use freethinking and differ, they know it is difference in HUMAN thinking, now people differ and hate each other because they believe they are defending what GOD is thinking. God promises the victory for the true believers, so where is the victory in muslim countries? Where is the victory for muslim people? Why did the taliban loose then? Because it means, people are not followers of the path of God. You are obliged to investigate your path....
- And (He will give you) what is dearest to you -- help from God and early victory. So give good tidings to those who believe.
Peace
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Peace,
I have noticed thaqt this site is owned by a christian from New Zealand. Their is nothing wrong with that, but what else are you not telling us? Are you being paid by some organisation? If not, tell me how it is possible for you to be on 24/7.
You are confusing between the host of this site (a small business in New Zealand) and the owner.
The person in New Zealand hosts this site for $ as any other internet hosting company.
The site is owned and run by Muslims who try to adhere to God and nothing but the word of God.
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Peace be upon you Mana,
Thanks for coming back to visit us. Indeed this site is run and upheld by men and women who strive for peace (s-l-m), and are therby described as "muslim", no matter what name they give themselves. And we do not differentiate between messengers, some of which we were never told about. We obey the messenger by obeying the God, which makes us automatic followers of all of God's unified messengers.
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One thing that really bothers me is the distinction between the hadith and the Quran. You people have disregarded the hadith and focus entirely on the Quran. That is how you can justify the drinking of alcohol and other things that are prohibited.No, they can't justify it, they want to, but they can't. But that is their responsibility. The Quran is clear enough on the subject.
Peace,
You point to there is no compulsion in religion and then state that according to YOU that alcohol is prohibited. I'm sorry but it has not been proven to me thus far. Until it is proven I will continue drinking alcohol and not because I'm addicted to it or need it, because it is my choice.
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Peace,
I understand you, and i respect your own opinion. The thing is, when i have these discussions, people say to me; where is the prohibition? Then i turn it around; where is your permission then? God doesn't talk about intoxicants in a positive way. i approach it like this. If your father advises you not to do something, he doesn't prohibite it, but he advises against its use, is that the same as giving his permission? No, because he knows and respects your own free will is the one who will decide for you. So his allowing based on permission? No, his allowing is based on; you have to find out for yourself. It is proven that when something is prohibited, it is more attractive to take it, the product or behaviour gets a whole new level. Ok, let's replace your father now with God. Doesn't it give a whole new dimension to the advise?
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact-method. Will you be deterred?In these verses i read a strong advise not to take intoxicants. Where do you read permission? Does this advise lean more to rather don't do it all, or does it lean towards it is ok?
Before you answer, think carefully why you want the permission. Why do you still push away an advise from God Himself? Why do you defend your position? Because you're defending the truth? Or because you're defending a habit? Something you like doing? Why exactly are you defending what you're defending? And i'm not refering to the intoxicants themselve, making you defend it, i'm refering to the psychological factor that makes people defend things.
It is like people defending saying Muhammed next to God; are they really worshipping Muhammed next to God then? No, of course not, i know a lot of people who believe in the Quran alone, and still Muhammed next to God, and seeing nothing wrong with it, while they know it is not to be found in the Quran. So what are they defending then? The Quranic truth? No, they know it is not found in the Quran. Are they defending Muhammed as a deity? No, they don't see Muhammed as an deity. Then what are they defending? They are defending there choice of behaviour, they are defending they're habit, they're behaviour they have been doing for a long time. So it is their behaviour that is more important then the truth, they put their will, their unwillingness of allowing to adapt to the truth next to God. They're putting their right of freewill next to God.
This is the same with this subject. I cannot say it is prohibited, but i have more arguments for saying it is better you rather not to take intoxicants, from the Quran and scientifical points of views. Then you have arguments, saying you have the right to take them. You have no foot to stand on, except that God only strongly advises against it, instead of forbidding it directly. It is your right to make use of the choice God gives you, but you have to think carefully on why do you choose like you do now. Is it based on science? No, it is better for your body, to not take it all, is it based on the Quran, no, God advises strongly against it. So what do you have left? Your right of free will, to go against God's advise. So to say it is not prohibited, sounds more like an 14 year old behaviour to me, then mature and wise behaviour...
Peace
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Peace brother Arnold,
The following verse sums up what you said in your post
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
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His only genius is tricking the world into thinking he is one.
Sacrilege! ;D Let's take this down to the movie thread, I'm sure lot's can be discussed about Jackson's tendencies toward ingenuity or not D
