Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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savage carrot;everybodies naturally state is to be 'moral',but we have the free-will to ignore this state..hence people in the world who are immoral in behaviour and thought. From what i read,some of the posters interpretations are immoral,as for whether they are immoral in their general overall behaviour, well i dont know enough about them...
If you can judge someone's interpretation by stating it's inhumane then by association you are judging the person's mindset/mind at the time as well, which is a part of them as people. There is no twisting away from this fact. It's obvious. This goes for all the choice statements about people that you have peppered your posts with.
As for you feeling the love...Well sometimes you have to use tough love,or be cruel to be kind... And you of all people should read some of your own sarcastic,irrelevant,sectarian posts.
Tough love? Cruel to be kind? Maybe you should change the labels you keep tacking in your posts to reflect that 'nuance'. Sarcasm is better than holier than thou preaching, and irrelevant are your personal comments. Sectarian? Whoo boy, you really caught me out here!
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Peace savage carrot. So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral? Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?) Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
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So we cant comment on behaviour we find immoral?
Immaturity is immoral? Low intellectual 'output' is immoral? Do tell.
Sarcasm is better than preaching is it?(ill disregard the holier than thou comment,as doesnt a lot of the 'quran only' methodology adopt a superiour attitude to sunni methodology or anyone else'?)
Sure, preaching does get boring like your posts do. Remind me of the other stuff you wrote when I go to a 'sunni' site and start preaching, or like you when I start preaching the quran is a man's interpretation of reality in a forum which espouses God alone through the quran which they deem God's words.
Does your quran confirm that? Or is that from your own mind?
You seem obsessed with the quran, and those that follow it. Explains a lot.
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Peace zenje,bmbmm and all. Even if the quran is clear and gods words(which i dont necessarily agree with.) how come after 1400 years we still dont know half of it,and we are still discussing salat,hajj,slaves etc..
Is that the book's fault?How come the 'quran only' community is not exactly at the forefront of world affairs or making great contributions to science and civilisation?
Is that the goal?How long has 'quran only' existed?
From the beginning.Did all the previous generations get it wrong?
Does it matter? Do we answer for previous generations? Done is what they did.Give me a few examples of success from the 'quran only' community?
What's success? Wealth? Numbers?whats the use of gods words if nobody properly understands it,or no peace/success is achieved through it?
If people don't follow it, how will anything be achieved through it?Im sure many sincere people have tried to interpret the quran and still come up with little consensus....
Are you really sure? Or is this conjecture? You know what's in other people's hearts and minds now, do you?Peace
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Peace savage-carrot,
Sc-That's why one shouldn't jump to conclusions and claim it's so difficult and unclear,
Not The fundamentals but the allegorical verses and there are lots of them.
Sc-if one doesn't have all or most of the pieces of the 'puzzle' with them. Here is how I see it, some like to talk about the motivations of say, Mr. Darcy without reading the whole of Pride and Prejudice.
That is the problem? when it come to picking up the pieces of the puzzle and painting a picture, we all do it in our own way, according to our own understand and knowledge, hence their will always be a difference of opinion and we have to acknowledge and respect that.
Sc-Of course a sura can be understood, and so can a simple verse. For one, the issue was why is it in different places and second the issue now is what about a person who only has time to read one sura, tho poor sod won't get the chance to understand! I SAY, TAKE THE TIME, READ THE WHOLE BOOK, PUT IT TOGETHER WITH REASON AND EXPERIENCE OF LIFE ALONG WITH INSPIRATION
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Sis dear, you love to assume ? Your analysis is, that who so ever is skeptical about the book, HE HAS ONLY READ ONE SURA AND THAT POOR SOD HAS NEVER USED REASONING AND EXPERIENCE OF HIS LIFE ALONG WITH THE INSPIRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK? This dear sis is a typical statement made by all THE TRUE BELIEVERS D, the reality is the other way round, I have seen that the majority of the people who claim the book to be perfect, are those who have never bothered to read the book at all, or they read it in Arabic only.Sc-The ones who judge and/or try to understand it hastily or with bias will not understand and things will be muddy.
Logical.
Sc-Yes, we read the whole book with the intent to learn.
Agreed, and according to my understanding there is nothing else to learn from the book except the code of ethics.
Sc-Once dubious motivations creep in along with arrogance like 'I know better than this! This is ancient history far below my intellectual level'...thats when things start messing up.
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
Sc-It's the intent and will to learn, some things will not get clearer right away,
Right, but when things get clear, they change your old understandings/concepts and replace them with the new ones, and it?s a constant never ending process.
Sc- it may take time, patience and sincerety.
That the way it is sis ).
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace agent,
Not The fundamentals but the allegorical verses and there are lots of them.
It's a long hard road I agree, the good news is the fundamentals are all one really needs. There are some who definitely have good understandings of the 'allegorical' verses imo, I suppose it's interest as well, some just like to research and come up with stuff that is not in contradiction with what the text says.
That is the problem? when it come to picking up the pieces of the puzzle and painting a picture, we all do it in our own way, according to our own understand and knowledge, hence their will always be a difference of opinion and we have to acknowledge and respect that.
Yes, and when someone wants to 'discuss' their understanding it's all good.
Sis dear, you love to assume ? Your analysis is, that who so ever is skeptical about the book, HE HAS ONLY READ ONE SURA AND THAT POOR SOD HAS NEVER USED REASONING AND EXPERIENCE OF HIS LIFE ALONG WITH THE INSPIRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK? This dear sis is a typical statement made by all THE TRUE BELIEVERS , the reality is the other way round, I have seen that the majority of the people who claim the book to be perfect, are those who have never bothered to read the book at all, or they read it in Arabic only.
Bro dear, it's what you wrote The majority of people in Pakistan have nothing to do with 'our' discussion. I know how they are, I'm from Pakistan as well. This is between two people who have both read the book and have our respective views. I hope I'm not 'assuming' here about you having read the book?
Agreed, and according to my understanding there is nothing else to learn from the book except the code of ethics.
That's fine of course.
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
All I ask is to bring the 'why it isn't' out into the open so that we call can learn. It's not enough to call something imperfect and not bring the evidence to be discussed?
Right, but when things get clear, they change your old understandings/concepts and replace them with the new ones, and it?s a constant never ending process.
Indeed.
That the way it is sis
Of course
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Peace all,
the quran is not close, the verb of god continue to write the evolution of humanity. All muslims can contribute to look for the truth taking in consideration their experience of life.
It's difficult to etablish an islamic society without solid source. When we look the occidental society, we can see that the remed is in the quran.
We must consult us to guive at the quran the veritable function of guide of humanity.
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peace zenje and savage carrot.
Savage carroti suggest you dont get obsessed with trying to be something you are not,you seem to be over-reaching yourself. You really think i will fall for your baits? Sometimes deliberate immaturity and not using ones intelligence could be deemed as immoral...If you search inside yourself you will know whether this applies to you or not,i dont know you well enough to make a full judgement.You keep reading into my posts what you want to and trying to know the real me,it wont necessarily get you anywhere,except illusions...This is net chat my sister,not guessing games...
Im not judging you,i am making some comments on your posts...Do you really think you are a good advert for quranic morality,and are getting the quranic message across well?ZenjeNot the books fault,but those who believe its perfect.
Is not the goal of quran to redeem society and man?
where is the Proof of 'quran only' from the begining?
Done is what they did,but can you tell me what they or muhammed did?
Success in helping mankind morally and intellectually,has this been done?
Does nobody follow the quran properly in order for us to see an example of moral success?
Come on,...on this forum give me a list of the topics that have consensus? So any people that have tried to read quran and get consensus,but failed to get consensus,are insincere? Is that your criterion or allahs? Do you know whats in their hearts? Do you love your book/opinions/so called allahs words more than humanities goodness? Does your god love people?(applies to others on this 'sectarian agenda'.)
Peace all. -
Peace enquirer,
ZenjeNot the books fault,but those who believe its perfect.
Now that's definitely your opinion... and you know what?.. you're entitled to it! ;DIs not the goal of quran to redeem society and man?
What happened to "forefront of world affairs" ??? Man, you really flip around don't you?where is the Proof of 'quran only' from the begining?
In quran, but ofcourse that doesn't matter to you, so why ask?Done is what they did,but can you tell me what they or muhammed did?
See, previous answer.Success in helping mankind morally and intellectually,has this been done?
Is it really?... according to quran?Does nobody follow the quran properly in order for us to see an example of moral success?
And you've seen everyone, ofcourse!Come on,...on this forum give me a list of the topics that have consensus?
Must there be a consensus? I thought we were individuals, not borgs. insert 'resistance is futile' emoticon hereSo any people that have tried to read quran and get consensus,but failed to get consensus,are insincere?
If they "failed", and I'm not sure what you mean by that, yes.Do you know whats in their hearts?
Aww.. poor enquirer, trying to turn around his own inadequaces... I don't, but perhaps you do! ;DDo you love your book/opinions/so called allahs words more than humanities goodness?
Putting words in my mouth ain't gonna help you either.Does your god love people?(applies to others on this 'sectarian agenda'.)
It's a pity that when you've got nowhere to turn, you pull out the "sectarian" card. There there... it's gonna be alright, no need to get so emotional. Cheer up dude, life is short, don't you have mankind to help intellectually or something? -
Savage carroti suggest you dont get obsessed with trying to be something you are not,you seem to be over-reaching yourself. You really think i will fall for your baits?
Eh? Translation please?
Sometimes deliberate immaturity and not using ones intelligence could be deemed as immoral...
Lol.
If you search inside yourself you will know whether this applies to you or not,i dont know you well enough to make a full judgement.
Ah, so partial judgements were all well and good. No matter.
You keep reading into my posts what you want to and trying to know the real me,it wont necessarily get you anywhere,except illusions...
You mean you hide your self while posting so nobody can see the real you?
This is net chat my sister,not guessing games...
"net chat"? Which era are you from again? D
Im not judging you,i am making some comments on your posts
Really? It's quite amazing then that what you wrote proved otherwise, but it's okay...I can write 'enquirer has "low intellectual output", but it's got nothing to do with his intellect really, it's just hiding in a safe place where it's free from the cruel world.'
Do you really think you are a good advert for quranic morality,and are getting the quranic message across well?
Oh no! It's that old line again, when all else fails. Get some new ones.
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Peace zenje and savage carrot.
Savage carrot; You basically said nothing in your post.
Zenje; I am a very happy man my friend,im breaking free from the web of illusions... I see you avoided or couldnt answer the last two questions and resorted to immature attempts at humour. Your response to the question of whether people are insincere if they try but fail to get a consensus from the quran,which you answered yes they are insincere,shows the potential for idolisation of quran and inhumanity...Which im glad the rest of the forum is now aware of... And i suggest you think about what role peoples happiness(even those from outside your superior/arbitrary group.) plays in your religious interpretations/dogmas.( justified from allah,of course. .)
Peace all. -
You basically said nothing in your post.
You hurt me deeply -* -*
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peace Ab.
Peace mate
Ab your analysis from the so-called clear quran took a lot of space.
two questions here
- what space exactly?, your hard disk space? Or free-minds server space?
- What do you mean by the CLEAR quran?
You are even more unclear than the literal quran.
do you understand the literal Quran first?
I really doubt it
I will say that your analysis is also contradictory. If we can only do good or bad by allahs will,then humans have no free-will...
well, the real God is not like your man made weak god, the real God must keep an eye on the humans he created so they don?t destroy the earth, as well we have no free will regarding our existence, have you been asked before you are born to exist or not?
If you answer no, then where the hell is the free will you are talking about?
Well you lack what the real God is, the real God has forced us into existence and has forced us to take on the test, our free will is only regarding the tests
This makes judgement and punishment ridiculous..How can god punish us for what he has willed us to do?...
you don?t get it obviously, it seems your veil is very thick indeed. Allah does not force us to do things in the test, it is our free will that controls our actions, it is just a matter of allowing it or not, that is what the real God does, and if you want to kill someone and Allah does not allow it, you will still be held responsible for trying to kill someone
You people have not addressed the verses i highlighted,...which danish re-iterated?
the stratagy of clear cut enemy of Islam, I don?t fall in these trap mister, I responded to your first comment and I yet to read most of the comments in here, but I?m sure I will see a bunch of enemy of Islam ranting about contradictions and seeking discord between Muslims, , the fact of the matter is they are not seeking discord only, but seeking others to join them in hell, and my job is to try and tell the others to watch out using the literal Quran.
If your guidance-idol is so perfect please explain those verses i mentioned.
as I said mister, I don?t move to another subject until I finish the subject in hand, but as I said when I finish you off I will look at the other ignorant enemy of Islam unfounded comments
The fact is that if you take all of the quran literally and dont use your intelligence to apply it
of course I take the whole Quran literally unless specified otherwise by ant verse regarding that verse, this is as far as the intelligence required can go I don?t make assumption nor create illusions when it comes to the Quran, but I?m sure I still have a higher IQ than yours regarding the Quran
you will create contradictions in the text.
Haha, that is what the ignorant will try to say, like the free will silly argument you said earlier. Haha again, the Quran refutes you fair and square and at the same time supports what I say fair and square, the Quran told us zillions of times that
Allah does what He wants
Now for your man made god, I?m sure he does what you want, LOL, did you get it mister smart?
You made my point even clearer with your post,because you deny free-will in effect,
a clear cut lie, that is what most of my debaters do when I corner them using the Quran that they don?t understand from the first place, will did I ever denied the freewill in this life?
Now I didn?t I said Allah only allow it to happen or not, you have, all I said that Allah?s will is watching our will and ready to interfere anytime according to a divine knowledge and wisdom, you have no point mister smart and please don?t manipulate what I said
and like i said before that renders judgement day and punishment as meaningless. Thanks for that.
who you are thanking exactly, your god, me or the God of the quran?
And why to thank, were you worried or something?
In fact you rendered a load of verses contradictory..
why don?t you show us these verses and explain to us how it was rendered contradictory?
Every soul will be held in pledge for its deeds'?.
of course that is the freewill in the deeds
..Well not if they dont have free-will...
but they do have freewill regarding the deeds, can?t you see it or what?
Well I can see it in you, you used your freewill to reject the Quran, right mister smart?
If so, what is your point exactly?
The problem is mister smart that you can?t see, is this Allah will not allow you to accept the Quran unless He desires as such, LOL, that depends on how sincere you are, but so far I don?t think you are, but Allah knows better than me for sure.
Now every verse ordering us to pray,fast or do anything is null and void because we cant do it,as we have no free-will...
don?t BS me mister smart, can you post the verses and walk me through it, of course we have freewill regarding what you listed
Shouldnt allah just guide everybody if its only him that can guide?...
of course that?s what He does, the Quran told us as such, but only the ones who wants to be guided, not the hypnotised and yet arrogant ones
This makes allah unjust in your book.
well, bad luck to us, can we do anything about it?
He is a God , can?t you comprehend that?
So if He is unjust, again bad luck to us, we will just have our rectums barbecued in the hell fire, can we bloody do something about it?, I?m sure we can?t if it is the case. I will just cry and leave rebelling to you
Is god going to throw every unguided person in hell eternally,
of course, because this is what He said
even though he had/has the power to guide them?
of course,, but did they deserve to be guided?, that is the bloody question, and let me make it even harder for you, even if they deserve to be guided and He didn?t guide them, can they question Him?, of course not, because this is a God not a weak human
He told us He does what He wants, He even told us that He will put some people in the heaven for eternity unless He wants them out and same for the hell dwellers, He told us they will stay for eternity unless He wants them out, see, He does what He wants, that is something else He told us many times, and we can?t do anything about it, unless you have something in your bag ready to be used when you face that destiny?, but again I will rather cry and ask for mercy, be my guest to rebel with a God
Doesnt this also make him unjust?..
that?s how you see it while I see it quite the contrary, but even if my sighting is false and He is unjust, what can I do?, absolutely nothing, I was not asked to exist from the first place.
Which contradicts the verses about allah being just or merciful...
again, due to your veil and ignorance to what a God should be, that is what you will only see, I see God the most just. period
Im just happy that even though i do not respect the literal,unintelligent interpretations of a humans book(quran,by muhammed.) ,that i dont attribute injustice and dictatorship to god,but instead try to respect and follow the good that the god within guides me to do.
good luck with you man made god within you, LOL
now you called the Quran a human book, which is again unfounded and ignorant statement by a clear cut enemy of Allah, you retreat your utter BS or at least prove to me who is the human who write the Quran, now I need something that makes sense not you utter BS that your man made god is inspiring you
Peace all. ps;What makes you think you can slap me ab?
I can if you ask for it, LOL, I will pay for the ticket as well
Are you a tough guy over the net?
oh come on man, how I will slap you on the net?, I mean if you want me to wake you up by a couple of slaps, I will come to your country and will pay for the ticket, it is all about helping another lost human to find the true path to Allah, and I?m willing to do that if you want me too, I will take the chance and buy a few parts to my car from the UK, I always wanted to do that
You like,zenje and savage carrot
Thank you for putting me in the same category as zenje and savage, they are very nice members as far as I?m concerned
seem very immature and defensive.
now let me analyse the above
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we are immature ( well, what is your proofs mister smart?) I guess it might be that we are not following a man made god within us?, fine mister smart I?m immature
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we are defensive ( well, how come you are attacking our religion and uttering BS about the Quran and you want us not to be defensive?), man, your man made god is very funny indeed, I guess he inspired you to accuse us as such which is fine with me, I?m defensive, but if you want me offensive I can be, as long as you promise me that you will be a sport type of guy as well the admin will not ban me
..I hope you all wake up...
and follow you man made god?, BS, I?d rather go back to sleep
salam
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and follow you man made god?, BS, I?d rather go back to sleep
;D
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Peace ab. You are definately an amazingly individual...And thats not a compliment...You said nothing in your post,and ducked and dodged like your two comrades. I guess the people on the forum that are awake will see the unanswered questions and non-sense you guys have posted and make their own minds up. Like a 'wise man' said; 'some people think they have a direct link with god,but they have no link with humanity'.
I give you permission to try to come to my country and do what you will,but you take the consequences as well...Its easy to be tough on the net little man. D
Peace all...and you guys definately need some peace. ) -
It's times like these when I remember a poster called Lotetree. If you are reading Lote, you have an imposter here! He has no sense of humour either, at least you had some, however skewed it was. Come back and take your rightful place!
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Peace savage carrot and all. Yes,i like lote-tree... My sense of humour is used for appropriate situations sister. D I am afraid this is not one of them situations...yet. )
Are you implying your humour is any good? Well ill see if you can be humourus...all ive seen so far is sarcasm and pettiness...Dont they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? Take it easy. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) -
My sense of humour is used for appropriate situations sister. I am afraid this is not one of them situations...yet.
Pity, I have yet to see any situations in which you have used any, or maybe you have and it fell flat?
Are you implying your humour is any good?
Unlike you I don't imply or allude.
Well ill see if you can be humourus...
From what I've seen of you, I'll only be 'humourus' if I agree with you. I don't want to hold out for that pat on the head you give to those lucky few!
all ive seen so far is sarcasm and pettiness...
One sees what they want, being somewhat of a relativist I'm sure you know this better than anyone.
Dont they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?
Do they? Don't believe all you hear about what 'they' say. It's bad for you.
Take it easy
I always do /
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Peace bro "AB",
Ive seen you using "A God" continuously in your above post to refer to the True GOD. I advise you not to do this. He is not a God. He is GOD, THE GOD, GOD of the heavens and the earth, Creator of me, you and everythiing that exists. So use the definite artcile "the" or all caps GOD. GOD Bless! -
Peace savage carrot. Before you go to sleep tonight i hope you reflect on your behaviour and find the truth within,if you want to... I will do that too...i will also decide for mine and your and everybodies peace whether its better not to respond to some of your posts...I mean is anything being achieved by this? A reasonable answer would be nice...