Free Minds now Anti Qur'an forum.
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peace
who said anything against the quran?
The problem with some people here is that whenever a question is asked regarding the quran that they don't have an answer to, or that the obvious (not necessarily right) answer might make the quran look bad, they become defensive and emotional.
If we want to truly learn from the quran, we need to learn to criticize it and uphold it's teachings on rational thought.
Questioning the content of the quran, or it's authenticity, is not wrong. Questions lead to answers. -
peace
who said anything against the quran?
The problem with some people here is that whenever a question is asked regarding the quran that they don't have an answer to, or that the obvious (not necessarily right) answer might make the quran look bad, they become defensive and emotional.
If we want to truly learn from the quran, we need to learn to criticize it and uphold it's teachings on rational thought.
Questioning the content of the quran, or it's authenticity, is not wrong. Questions lead to answers.Peace phoenix,
While what you say might ring true in one or two cases, honestly, I'm sure you can see through the facade and uncover the truth. There are some members who are against quran and those who follow it. I'm not saying that these members should not be here, infact far from it... let them stay, let's have open discussion and debates, that's what this forum is about. We welcome all religions and 'non-religions' alike. What I don't like, is the deception involved. Members who start off claiming they are muslims, wanting to get your confidence and then slowly turn and preach their own ways, which they originally came here to do. Again, I don't mind if a christian (good example - oneway) came and openly debated and said what they thought of Islam, etc. No problem with that at all. Infact, in that example, I admired oneway's courage and patience.
Come, let's chat, let's discuss, let's debate, let's have difference of opinions... but please, don't tell me you come in peace at the beginning, and then a few weeks later go on an all out attack against members and their beliefs? That con, that deceit is what get's to me.
I don't know about you, but the open-discussion nature of Free-minds is what attracted me to this place to begin with. I'm just not a fan of millitant forums.
I agree with neo, once we start filtering the members we have, we will miss out on the diversity that makes this place better. )
- The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
- Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then Say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s curse upon the liars.?
- This is the narration of truth, there is no god but God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
Peace all
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Peace,
One more thing I forgot to mention, it is up to you to stand against these verbal attacks. Do not be lazy and just hope that the people who create mischief will go away (or will be banned). No, you can choose to ignore, that's fine, but then don't complain about it. Or you can choose to stand up, defend and be stronger in your belief. But most of all, practice patience, be peaceful and adhere to the laws of God. Also remember, (496).
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16125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
The free minds fake intellectuals are creating hurdles for the people who wants to read the message with their stupid philosphy.
Following link is the example
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5520.0
This is what I have been saying several times. But people, after knowing that I am ahadith supporter, just dont give any value to my opinon.
The problem is that when there are already setteled matters among muslims, then somebody opens a new pandora box by brining a totally new interpretation,,,,which opens the doors for the people who deny quran or who want to prove that quran is not word of God.
So had been saying that, for me being a sunni, Quran Only follower is a billion times better than a person who is denying quran or disgracing it. This should be true about Quran only followers also, about sunni muslims.
So dont let culprits enter the discussion by stopping to fire totally new meanings to the verses.
It does not mean that you stop thining about the possibilities of meanings.....but if I give example then look at the people praising the person "Phoenix" even he says quran is the selfmade writing of Muhammad(SAW) and there are stupid stories in quran. Certainly if somebody will praise that I will be as harsh on that as I can.Sincerely,
VirtualEye -
peace virtualeye,
first of all,thankyou for using me as an example.
second of all, i never said the quran contained stupid stories. i said by taking some things literally, we make them appear stupid (which means 'completely irrelevent to our lives'.
Furthermore, i never said the quran was 'made up' by muhammad. I said muhammad (or whatever his name was) reached such a state where he was able to directly "talk" with God and recieve inspiration. The quran is that inspiration in words. In, i believe, muhammad's words. That doesn't take anything away from the veracity of the message that the quran carries.
Lastly, i don't believe the quran is absolutely necessary to our salvation. (At least) The most important lessons the quran teaches us are present all around us in different places and can even be figured out using common sense (which isn't really so common). The quran is a great book in that it gives us those lessons and more in one book that hasn't been altered and doesn't contain contradictions.
then there's my new avatar. It is a picture from the 'aberdeen bestiary' from the 1200s (i think). Bestiaries included 'info' on mystical beings like the phoenix and included moral stories connected with them. They were based on the belief that this world is the word of God and everything in it are symbols from which we can learn, and i hold a somewhat similar view.
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Peace,
Lastly, i don't believe the quran is absolutely necessary to our salvation. (At least) The most important lessons the quran teaches us are present all around us in different places and can even be figured out using common sense (which isn't really so common). The quran is a great book in that it gives us those lessons and more in one book that hasn't been altered and doesn't contain contradictions.
I would slightly differ with you on this...You are correct to say that what we need for our salvation is already within us (the 'rouh' and that if we ponder and reflect and think (like Abraham) we will reach these truths without the need for any external source. However, I see it as a great mercy from God that He sent us the Scripture in which there are the laws that set the blue-print for a perfect balanaced society.
For example...God tells us in the Scripture that to 'free a slave' is an act of righousness and it is highly encouraged. While, at the same time, the Scripture does not allow for any people to be made into slaves. Thus, when the Scripture was revealed on a society that practiced slavery, this issue was resolved over time very peacfully as slaves were being set-free as an act of piousness, and no new slaves were being taken. Take in contrast what happened in the US when people applied their own logic and set all slaves free by an act of law civil war...Thousands died, many suffered...Why?..Because the act of suddenly freeing thousands even millions of slaves caused an economic and social upheaval that destroyed the livlihood of thousands, and they were willing to carry arms to stop this destruction.
Another example...Alcohol. The Scripture tells us that in it is harm and in it are benefits...It tells us that we need to be weary of it as the devil may use it as a tool to harm us, and that we are not allowed to approach Salat while intoxicated...Other than these guidelines, there is no prohibition or ban on alcohol....When the government thought that alcohol was evil and tried to ban it by law (in the US), there came a massive underground smuggling and organized crime operation where people were drinking in secret in even larger numbers perhaps than when it was openly available.
What I am trying to say is that you can find the truth without any external source (Scripture) at the risk of many trials and errors which may cause pain, harm, or even death to others...Or, you can just take the shortcut and follow the blueprint in which is the perfect system for our species.
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that claim is outright ridiculous
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Peace all,
While what you say might ring true in one or two cases, honestly, I'm sure you can see through the facade and uncover the truth. There are some members who are against quran and those who follow it. I'm not saying that these members should not be here, infact far from it... let them stay, let's have open discussion and debates, that's what this forum is about. We welcome all religions and 'non-religions' alike. What I don't like, is the deception involved. Members who start off claiming they are muslims, wanting to get your confidence and then slowly turn and preach their own ways, which they originally came here to do.
Completely agree, and and to the rest of your post and the other post as well. People let's start discussing and posting long posts whenever you see these issues! Don't post expecting an answer, do it for the greater good!
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Peace layth. Seeing the tremendous harm and disunity caused by immoral interpretations of the quran,can you really say overall,that its a shortcut to salvation that is less harmful than abrahams 'self-pondering'/discovery of truths,or the discovery of truths by other 'civilisations' /people using their own god-given intellect?
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Peace layth. Seeing the tremendous harm and disunity caused by immoral interpretations of the quran,can you really say overall that its a shortcut to salvation that is less harmful than abrahams 'self-pondering' and discovery of truths,or the discovery of truths by other 'civilisations' and people using their own god-given intellect?
I'm only quoting your post as an example for my reply.
People who can't seperate an ideology from its followers have no place trying to discuss anything worthy of the intellect. People, please realise that an ideology does not necessarily reflect upon those who follow it; one cannot judge an ideology based on a sample of the followers of said ideology; finding faults in the followers of an ideology does not constitute a fault of said idealogy. Anyone who constitutes an argument on an ideology based on its followers are unwittingly committing strawman's fallacies.
Please people, get your heads out of your asses and start thinking about what you type.
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Peace,
Enquirer, i understand your point of view, but there are as many different ways of following your concience....The thing is, people should start to understand, that we are not fighting over what God is thinking, but we as humans are thinking. We are all on different levels. A year ago, i wouldn't have accepted any idea i have now, i would have rejected the me who is now. I would label him a fool. We are still in a long progress of letting go of the mythology and corrupted theology that still hunts us when people read Quran, this will takes years and years. Just like your concience took years to develop. I myself have grown so much the last years, and every stage was neccesary, every little ignorant step i defended was neccesary to understand it and move on. Don't get confused on how people can differ so much on one book, because that is not the case. People don't understand that they are not defending the truth, they are defending their background, the things they picked up in life. There are people on this site, who has already letten go of so much past-ignorance, in time more will be understood, and the differences will disappear for the major parts. I defended the Kaaba for a long time, but now i have researched it, and seeing the symbolic language God uses, i have let it go. But this i could do, because i remembered myself on all the things i already dropped behind me. There will be more consensus in the future, no doubt about that. But still new people will come to this path, and they will have to learn to let go of a lot of conceptions, which will take years, and during that time, they will differ all the time. This is normal......
Peace
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Peace,
Peace layth. Seeing the tremendous harm and disunity caused by immoral interpretations of the quran,can you really say overall,that its a shortcut to salvation that is less harmful than abrahams \'self-pondering\'/discovery of truths,or the discovery of truths by other \'civilisations\' /people using their own god-given intellect?
Yes, I can say without a doubt that following the \'best\' understanding of the Scripture is leaps and bounds more beneficial than having to experiment with social laws causing the death and destruction of thousands or even millions in the process.
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Salaamun alaikum,
KGB, while I hear your sentiment, imho, you need to understand that free discussions are necessary in order to stimulate answers to higher questions. In order to extract the message of al-quraan, we need to be in conviction of its origin and to do this, we must observe the signs in the horizons and in ourselves. Al-quraan caters to our existential needs from the start to the end.
However, this doesn't mean that all discussions can be fruitful. There are people here who lack integrity and honesty when it comes to discussions. They have not done their research and don't mind belittling the Quran even without this. Such people, if we are true servants of Ar-Rahmaan , should be addressed with 'salaam' (25/63). I cannot understand how the management stands for their presence but hey-ho, this is the law of the land, as it were and we must either bear with it or leave.
To me, Layth's point of view could be summed up by saying, you can escape Al-quraan, but you can never escape al-kitaab. We will be judged by al-kitaab in the end. In order to learn of al-kitaab, you need clarification and this is the whole point of al-quraan, the tafseelul kitaab (10/37)
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Peace neo and all. Ideology means nothing if it is not applied practically,does it? I could say i believe in all the principles and ideology of the quran (like islamic extremists do.) and then kill and oppress innocents for these principles...is the ideology just a bunch of theoretical nice words. Or do these ideologies have to be verified and applied?
Isnt ideology without action classed as 'hypocrisy' in the quran?...(dont worry im not accusing you of hypocrisy,just asking a question.) What is the proof of an ideologies correctness...? Theoretical posturing and arguing?...,Or real life practical verifications,along with real life applicability producing peaceful results? -
peace All,
when one examines something, especially something like 'al quran' whose aim is to guide the complex being known as mankind, it is inevitible you will get extreme swings, and during this process of examination you will get amazing discoveries/insights as well as illogical ones. Loads of differing opinions (like every other complex subject discussed in the whole world?) etc. This is natural, and if one ponders carefully, one can regard it as essential.
Also, longstanding members see this happening all the time a person takes the views of a few people here to represent the forum and they make sweeping generalisations about the forum or all members of the forum or the movement. This is child's play.
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Peace neo and all. Ideology means nothing if it is not applied practically,does it? I could say i believe in all the principles and ideology of the quran (like islamic extremists do.) and then kill and oppress innocents for these principles...is the ideology just a bunch of theoretical nice words. Or do these ideologies have to be verified and applied?
Isnt ideology without action classed as 'hypocrisy' in the quran?...(dont worry im not accusing you of hypocrisy,just asking a question.) What is the proof of an ideologies correctness...? Theoretical posturing and arguing?...,Or real life practical verifications,along with real life applicability producing peaceful results?Straw.
Man.
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Peace arnoldyasin and all. Arnoldyasin; Some very good observations and points you make... I dont mind too much a persons theoretical beliefs,as we can all be at different stages of understanding,individuality and learning...i myself would have defended salat,hajj,kaaba,perfection of quran,quran only,salavation of quran only people only etc... only a couple of years ago...But i have come to realise that reality does not justify some of my previous views and dogmas,and we have to verify the opinions we have...However i believe when a persons views cause real harm or oppression to themselves or others,it needs to be countered,deflected or opposed...
My business is not always questioning how you make sense of the world through you own individual god-given logic,but why people are oppressing and harming themselves and others...
peace all.. -
Inquiries people with time should make to Enquirer
Enquirer ....i myself would have defended salat,hajj,kaaba,perfection of quran,quran only,salavation of quran only people only etc... only a couple of years ago.
Please explain your view of hajj and kaaba.
Please show where al-quraan says 'only quran-only people will be saved' as per your statement above.
...But i have come to realise that reality does not justify some of my previous views and dogmas,and we have to verify the opinions we have
Please explain how you formulate 'reality' ? How is 'reality' determined and by what classification system is it expounded upon?
...However i believe when a persons views cause real harm or oppression to themselves or others,it needs to be countered,deflected or opposed...
Does al-quraan agree or disagree with this view ?
If it enjoins the things mentioned above, kindly bring forward the evidence.
Please note these questions are for the use of people who wish to stimulate their minds and to respond to those who reject al-quraan as from Allah. Please do not expect Enquirer to answer these questions. He doesn't care to address any points if they do not extoll his views or virtues.
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Peace mquran. Quran does not really agree or disagree with any view...Its you and the people who interpret the quran,that disagree or agree with universal laws...When did the quran last 'talk' directly about its views to anyone?...I will give you an indication..It last talked when 'muhammed' or the person who wrote it,was present.
