Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

savage_carrot

That a layman's appoach without substantiating from how and where the book itself got derived from to begin with.
So you have substantiated it for yourself and everyone else, hence your claim of 'there is absolutely no doubt and the entire earth stands witness'.

The rest of your rebuttle is simply vented out and back-knifed and I am not going to play your silly game.

Indeed. It's a game is it, depending on perspective one sees what they want.

Here, once again, in case you fogot to take this into account and the only possible way to understand it is with open-mindedness, objectivity, scientific and logical relevancy in order to critically analyze the subject without buffering and buttering up Allah and mocking HIM in vain,

And of course then it will become clear that it is man-made. Thank you.

unknownuser

Lol, flamebait posed as argument?

Lol, typical. Global politics starts with an niche abuse (flamebait)?

Anyway, the authenticity of the Quran (regards to its preservation) is a well known historical fact.

Perhaps your socioeconomics or rather religious politics can explain that?

Do you?? Please explain in terms of my statement above.

One word socioeconomics.

Great explanation??? LOL!!!

By the way, your comment about the "jealousy" of the Islamic nations made me laugh yes, people hate "freedom and justice" because they really want to be them.

Good for you, keep laughing! It will give an added boost to socioeconomics.

neo

Lol, typical. Global politics starts with an niche abuse (flamebait)?

"a niche". "An" is used only if the word begins with a vowel (rare exceptions in the case of "u&quot.

And typical of what? I don't think you know what my "beliefs" are for you to call me "typical". Following the same tactics, I can call you a typical idiotic atheist.

Perhaps your socioeconomics or rather religious politics can explain that?

Wait, so you don't believe in historical analysis?

Great explanation??? LOL!!!

You expect me to explain global political issues to someone who thinks the Islamic world is jealous of the freedom of the west? Please. I didn't reply to you intending to correct your ways or engage in a debate with you, I replied to you because I thought your idiocy was funny.

unknownuser

Lol, typical. Global politics starts with an niche abuse (flamebait)?

"a niche". "An" is used only if the word begins with a vowel (rare exceptions in the case of "u&quot.

And typical of what? I don't think you know what my "beliefs" are for me to call me "typical". Following the same tactics, I can call you a typical idiotic atheist.

Perhaps your socioeconomics or rather religious politics can explain that?

Wait, so you don't believe in historical analysis?

Great explanation??? LOL!!!

You expect me to explain global political issues to someone who thinks the Islamic world is jealous of the freedom of the west? Please. I didn't reply to you intending to correct your ways or engage in a debate with you, I replied to you because I thought your idiocy was funny.

Flamebait, idiotic atheist.....keep adding and it will prove my point....err....perhaps your 'global politics'.

"Islamic world is jealous of freedom of west"; hmmm..now that's a newbie.

neo

Lol, typical. Global politics starts with an niche abuse (flamebait)?

"a niche". "An" is used only if the word begins with a vowel (rare exceptions in the case of "u&quot.

And typical of what? I don't think you know what my "beliefs" are for me to call me "typical". Following the same tactics, I can call you a typical idiotic atheist.

Perhaps your socioeconomics or rather religious politics can explain that?

Wait, so you don't believe in historical analysis?

Great explanation??? LOL!!!

You expect me to explain global political issues to someone who thinks the Islamic world is jealous of the freedom of the west? Please. I didn't reply to you intending to correct your ways or engage in a debate with you, I replied to you because I thought your idiocy was funny.

Flamebait, idiotic atheist.....keep adding and it will prove my point....err....perhaps your 'global politics'.

"Islamic world is jealous of freedom of west"; hmmm..now that's a newbie.

You're trying to prove a point against someone who's just having a few laughs at the expense of your 'intelligence'? Excellent.

So anyway, tell me why you don't believe in historical analysis.

unknownuser

I just went through this entire thread and am glad to read some great stuff from your end, begging for sincere answers rather than twists and twinky doodles.

Salam Danish

It is strange that you support someone denies the Quran totally and wants to spread his unfounded crap while others who are Quran believers and knowledgeable with it like Mquran and Laila been condemned by you, this says it all indeed, simply you are a Quran rejector like him, the likes of you is another proof that the Quran is the words of Allah, because it clearly told us that we will meet the likes of you and it even told us why the likes of you will be deaf, dumb, and blind, thanks to the veil, now, enq has nothing to say, he does not even put an effort to debate the ones who put an effort to reply to his non sense, he is very novice, but for me you are not, so let me see what you have to say against the Quran

Am surprised that your post above carrying much grounds to your topic seems to have tossed out, unnoticed. Anyhow, here's one for the road and several more to come as we travel along

Sure, let?s go on a trip, but I hope non of us is tripping though

415
Khalifa
Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
Yusuf Ali
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
Pickthal
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

415 is talking about ?Lesbians?, this is clear from 416, so the 4 witnesses above is not about a woman cheating with another man, rather, women who likes to sleep with women, and in this case 4 witnesses sounds more possible, as well the punishment to imprison them in the houses is sort of confirming that because if we let them go then they will sleep with each other again and if we put them in jail, the jail will be their paradise, that is the most realistic explanation to the above verse.

Who knows, in this case, the adulteresses may live longer than others until old age catches them in confinement. But hang on, lets see what happens to them next.

Do you mean a lesbian?

Four witnesses needed for lewdness of adulteress. What happens when witnesses fall short of four (3 or 2 or 1)?

If you are talking about a lesbian and there is no 4 witnesses then the charges must be dropped

What is the punishment for men (adulterer) in this case? Perhaps the answer is given elsewhere in a twisted fashion (see below).

The twisting is coming from you and others who can?t understand the Arabic Quran, there is no men involved in lesbian relationships

242
Khalifa
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
Yusuf Ali
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Pickthal
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

But this is another crime, 242 is talking about those who sleeps with others outside the wedlock, come one man, please don?t compare Apples with Mangos, 415 is talking about Lesbians, 416 is talking about Homos and 242 is talking about adultery (sleeping with others outside the wedlock)

Isn?t the punishment for adulteresses (women) in 415 to confine them at homes until death do them away OR is it 100 lashes as per 242?

Wrong answer, 415 is talking about Lesbians, 416 is talking about Homos, and 242 is talking about those who like to have sex outside the wedlock

Giving 100 lashes as per 242 may very likely not save their lives of either of them, but saves the adulteress?s life from getting beaten up in public as per 415?

Man, stop comparing Apples with Mangos please, how about you eat them?

The demonstration of punishment prescribed in 242 will surely inflict bodily injury, mental deprivation and societal/family trauma but rather hushed out in 415, Why?

Comparing Apples with Mangos again?, come on man, eat them please, the Mangos is more sweater than the Apples if it is Indian Mangos though.

How many witnesses are needed on this case?

In which case, the Zani and Zania?

Well, the verse never mentioned it, therefore it will apply as long as the charges has been proven by even one witness and possibly without witnesses at all like a photo

425
Khalifa
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Pickthal
And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Btw, the above is not an easy verse anyway, and I?m sure you didn?t understand it as many Muslims do, but let?s see

Now the adulteress?s punishment is halved because she is married. Okayyy. But halved as per 415 or 242 or what?

Here we go, you didn?t understand the verse, yes the punishment is halved BUT NOT because she is married as you are suggesting rather because her status WAS ?Ma Malakatu Aymanikum? before marriage

What about the married adulterer?s punishement?

Ma Malakatu Aymanikum only includes women as far as I believe

How many witnesses are needed to this case?

At least 4 for lesbianism
And at least the crime is proven for adultery

3330
Khalifa
O wives of the prophet, if any of you commits a gross sin, the retribution will be doubled for her. This is easy for GOD to do.
Yusuf Ali
O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for God.
Pickthal
O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.

Orignal Arabic Text

(30)

The verse above is clear, it is talking about punishment by Allah ?NOT BY HUMANS? this is clear from the words , ?Wa Kana Zalika Ala Allah Yasira?, i.e. ?, and that is easy for Allah?

This is a tough one.

Oh thanks, I like tough ones, but would that mean you are aware that the previous ones by you were child play?

In this case the punishment for adulteress is doubled, but by which standards/rule. Is it doubled as per 415 or 242 or 425?

Now you are comparing Mangos with Avocado, please understand bro 3330 is talking about the punishment that will be incurred by Allah to the wifes of the prophet if they commit Fahisha (lesbianism, adultry, etc etc?)

Who and how many witnesses shall we bring to this scenario, knowing that a prophet?s wife is being exposed of adultery?

If you are talking the human punishment then the same I said before apply

At least 4 for lesbianism
And at least the crime is proven for adultery

But Allah punishment is something else and Allah does not need witnesses and 3330 was talking about Allah punishment not the human punishment that should be enforced by Allah laws on earth

Imagine what painful emotions and disgrace this would bring to the community, prophet?s own family members and followers and to top it up, his preachings?

What the hell was that if you don?t mind?, are you talking when we see the double punishment to them in the JD?

Would the punishment be same (whatever that is) for prophet?s divorcees?

You mean if their status has changed?

NO because the moment they married the prophet they became the mothers of all believers and are not allowed to marry after him, all these conditions was told to them before marrying so they had the freewill to accept it or not

If the commit an Fahisha then the same Quran laws apply but they will also have double punishment by Allah in the Judgment Day

Not only are these verses in total contradiction, but inconsistent and incoherent.

It is your statements about the Quran that I found lacking knowledge/merit, in total contradiction, inconsistent and incoherent

Finally, what?s the prescription for gays and lisbians retribution?

415 and 416

Are there any standards inherited on them? Are any standards described above valid, witnessed and declared/honored today, other than a few shreds of jahiliah seen once in a blue moon, withering away.

415 and 416

That was really tough, I?m sweating very bad, mister Danish, you have to understand that my job is only to insert doubts in what you say about the Quran and if doubts are successfully inserted then your so called clear cut contradictions can?t be admissible and MUST be thrown in the rubbish bin, you should go back now and eat some Mangos (Indian Mangos though)

brother Agent, i just remembered that you are indian, please donlt take offencd as there Indian mangos in egypt and is one of the most delcious and expensive ones and i love it, in fact i can't find this mangos in australia and once i went to Dubbai and straight went and bought indian mangos there, you are one lucky indian, i love mangos bro

Many Slam Dunks

Cheers

unknownuser

You're trying to prove a point against someone who's just having a few laughs at the expense of your 'intelligence'? Excellent.

And I keep repeating myself....good for you, as I'm laughing along with you.

So anyway, tell me why you don't believe in historical analysis.

And where did you get that from that I don't believe in historical analaysis. Besides, it will only expose the hand-written man-made book coming out of thin air. Now that's a good laugh.

unknownuser

Ahmed, if you care to rebuttle my last post addressed to you in reference to agentxxx's concerns, then we can move on to your recent lengthy one presented mischievieously at best. One at a time. No need to drum beat, jump the ladder and get carried away with flowery slam dunks.

zenje

I don't think I've seen a topic get so many posts on a saturday! Keep em coming guys, really, I'm having quite a time reading them.

Here's some interesting clips...
Who's against quran? I'm against the literal harmful interpretations. But it's an excellent read. Even though it has contradictions across the board. Which might not really be contradictions, just bad harmful literal interpretations. It has created chaos in the world. I'm not saying dont read it. Better to learn from more than one source. There's many scriptures you can learn from. You're trusting your future in a book? The problem is it's hard to understand, and it says it's clear!.. and it's in arabic. And why are you being defensive and emotional!!

popcorn emoticon here

unknownuser

As a side note to Ahmed, if people start discussing and rebutting in the manner so pugnacious, outwitting and deficient as yours, they might as well believe in myths, magics and mimes mercilessly.

unknownuser

Thanks Ahmed, I got your point.

No worries Danish

You see, the issue is not the time and place in which the two aforementioned verses speak about; it is the congruency and tangency of PUNISHMENT justified in inconsistent and incoherent manner

not really because every crime has its own punishment as well clauses regarding excpetions and/or further elabortaion by others who understand the laws, like judges and the human laws exactly

, especially when allegedly elevated to an unimaginable source of a higher merciful authority.

would that mean you are denying God's existance as well?

In other words, the punishment given in one verse is irreflective/doesn't relate to the punishment given in another verse for the same or worse cause.

you need to elaborate with examples, i responded to your other long thread at page 8 or 9 as i'm still reaidng the pages

Did you get my point without me going into detail or need further explanation?

not really, you need to provide examples accompanied withyour elaboration, but please find new examples as the examples you posted before were slam dunked

cheers

unknownuser

Ahmed, if you care to rebuttle my last post addressed to you in reference to agentxxx's concerns, then we can move on to your recent lengthy one presented mischievieously at best. One at a time. No need to drum beat, jump the ladder and get carried away with flowery slam dunks.

I think I did but it seems you need to elaborate on it but with new examples please

neo

And where did you get that from that I don't believe in historical analaysis. Besides, it will only expose the hand-written man-made book coming out of thin air. Now that's a good laugh.

When I mentioned that the Qur'an has indeed been preserved 'perfectly' and that this face is corroborated by historical analysis you scoffed at it - I'm just wondering why, since I don't really think you know much about the Qur'an and are talking out of your arse.

But hey, keep dodging the question if that's what lets you get away with tricking yourself into thinking your posts are anything but flamebait.

unknownuser

As a side note to Ahmed, if people start discussing and rebutting in the manner so pugnacious, outwitting and deficient as yours, they might as well believe in myths, magics and mimes mercilessly.

Good, i think this is what they need to do

also mate can you please talk to me in more simpler english, I concede that you are an excellent english speaker, but can you please let go of his habit of posting whichever words you learnt in the thesauraus on a particular day that have nothing to do with what you are 'trying' to say. And that cheating at crossword puzzles is not very nice.

Thanks

Fahad1

Darbari;You have only explained your opinions of the verses,you havent refuted anything of the literal translations..

why dont u dont u show us how ?

You havent even answered many of my stated contradictions..but thats fine,you probably cant.

BS. u havent even replied to the one i answered . reply to that one first , then we will move on to the next .

mquran

A repeat post for Danish's convenience

Salaam to you, Danish,

Some questions if you please vis-a-vis your statement My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom, but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS. With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.

What problems do you see with al-quraan?
Is it possible that these problems, instead of being 'real', exist to your limited understanding of al-quraan itself?
How do you classify something as 'man's works' ? If X claims to be from God, what is your criteria to reject this assertion and classify it as man's work?
What should a book of God's words be like ?

thank you for your attention.

mquran

Peace mquran.Just to clarify... I read the quran in arabic,and i have studied it on and off for about 25 years...The last 7-8 years, very intensely at times.

Wow, very impressive. And in these 8 hard years (far longer than myself), you've never come across 4/59 and 12/100 which tells you what 'tawil' is ? Doesn't say much for your concentration then, does it?

I have also been through 'nearly' all the posts in free-minds,some in submission.org,tolu islam,dr shabbirs forum,i have read translations,interpretations and opinions of dozens of authors,as well as talking to 'quran only' and traditional muslims for 25 years also.

The same 25 years or a subsequent 25 years ? Keep piling the years up and soon you'll be the oldest person alive!

Since you've read 'nearly' all the posts, you must know how Dr Shabbir's explains Parwez's view on as-salaaat. I don't quite get it, can you explain it to me please?

I have also studied hinduism,buddhism,taoism,confuicism,new age spirituality,greek philosophy,philosophy,mysticism,paranormal,science,red indian spirituality,indigenous religions,atheism,agnosticism,polytheism,pantheism,panentheism,scientology,wicca.etc,etc...and most importantly life...And im still studying...

Commendable. Did you also treat these systems with the same casualness as you did al-quraan ?

If the quran helps you or anyone else,thats fine,i took a lot of benefit from it too...But im not going to deny other sources,or claim its superior to everything else,or complete in itself,or the only criterion,or a 'literalistically written,dogmatic,unverified' idol. Im not too worried about defending my' beliefs',or refuting your beliefs...but i am concerned about deflecting,defusing and defending against 'harmful' 'immoral' beliefs/behaviour from any source...Be they from quran,'democratic' governments,science,the bible,atheism,peoples opinions or even myself...

What is an 'idol' and can you tells us why we should believe your definition of what it is?

Are you a politician or a male cheerleader perhaps? Appealing to this emotive tone isnt helpful at this stage. I am too against 'harmful' and 'immoral' beliefs but I am not afraid to define what they are.

I will field my questions to you once more since you failed to adddress even one of them

Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.

There are more, but these will do for now. I will keep fielding these questions for your convenience until you address them or so that sincere seekers can see that you're just empty, devoid of any substance.

mquran

Joe (about Enquirer)I have mentioned before that you are a dabbler in many things and therefore have no concrete knowledge of the basis of these many things. You say you study Buddhism, but recently you had no knowledge of it's basic tenents and I think I can say that of many another systems you claim that you are a student of.

Go easy on him, Joe. The guy needs 25 years to reach a place where 'ta'wil' is 'far-fetched meanings' D , so it might take him that long to figure out what nirvana is as well.

unknownuser

Peace ?mquran?.

While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.

Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.

mquran

While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.

Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.

Well, if and when you feel like addressing the questions, I shall be happy to read them.

In the meantime, I will ask about this notion of yours 'essence of nature' (henceforth, 'EON&#039. We have had an exchange about this before but if you like, I'd like to start afresh on this point. I use the term khulqullah (lit, the evolvements of Allah) which would approximate to your 'essence of nature'.

Without a book, you're left with empirical observations to determine EON, correct? How would you go about imposing meaning onto the empirical observations? In order to determine a system by which mankind should live, how would you go about it?

I hope you will continue (as I notice you have above) to take my questions in the inquisitive spirit in which they were asked. They are meant to deconstruct, make no mistake but I am not out to convince, just to see if there's anything from your position which I missed.