Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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As a side note to Ahmed, if people start discussing and rebutting in the manner so pugnacious, outwitting and deficient as yours, they might as well believe in myths, magics and mimes mercilessly.
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Thanks Ahmed, I got your point.
No worries Danish
You see, the issue is not the time and place in which the two aforementioned verses speak about; it is the congruency and tangency of PUNISHMENT justified in inconsistent and incoherent manner
not really because every crime has its own punishment as well clauses regarding excpetions and/or further elabortaion by others who understand the laws, like judges and the human laws exactly
, especially when allegedly elevated to an unimaginable source of a higher merciful authority.
would that mean you are denying God's existance as well?
In other words, the punishment given in one verse is irreflective/doesn't relate to the punishment given in another verse for the same or worse cause.
you need to elaborate with examples, i responded to your other long thread at page 8 or 9 as i'm still reaidng the pages
Did you get my point without me going into detail or need further explanation?
not really, you need to provide examples accompanied withyour elaboration, but please find new examples as the examples you posted before were slam dunked
cheers
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Ahmed, if you care to rebuttle my last post addressed to you in reference to agentxxx's concerns, then we can move on to your recent lengthy one presented mischievieously at best. One at a time. No need to drum beat, jump the ladder and get carried away with flowery slam dunks.
I think I did but it seems you need to elaborate on it but with new examples please
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And where did you get that from that I don't believe in historical analaysis. Besides, it will only expose the hand-written man-made book coming out of thin air. Now that's a good laugh.
When I mentioned that the Qur'an has indeed been preserved 'perfectly' and that this face is corroborated by historical analysis you scoffed at it - I'm just wondering why, since I don't really think you know much about the Qur'an and are talking out of your arse.
But hey, keep dodging the question if that's what lets you get away with tricking yourself into thinking your posts are anything but flamebait.
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As a side note to Ahmed, if people start discussing and rebutting in the manner so pugnacious, outwitting and deficient as yours, they might as well believe in myths, magics and mimes mercilessly.
Good, i think this is what they need to do
also mate can you please talk to me in more simpler english, I concede that you are an excellent english speaker, but can you please let go of his habit of posting whichever words you learnt in the thesauraus on a particular day that have nothing to do with what you are 'trying' to say. And that cheating at crossword puzzles is not very nice.
Thanks
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Darbari;You have only explained your opinions of the verses,you havent refuted anything of the literal translations..
why dont u dont u show us how ?
You havent even answered many of my stated contradictions..but thats fine,you probably cant.
BS. u havent even replied to the one i answered . reply to that one first , then we will move on to the next .
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A repeat post for Danish's convenience
Salaam to you, Danish,
Some questions if you please vis-a-vis your statement My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom, but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS. With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.
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What problems do you see with al-quraan?
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Is it possible that these problems, instead of being 'real', exist to your limited understanding of al-quraan itself?
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How do you classify something as 'man's works' ? If X claims to be from God, what is your criteria to reject this assertion and classify it as man's work?
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What should a book of God's words be like ?
thank you for your attention.
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Peace mquran.Just to clarify... I read the quran in arabic,and i have studied it on and off for about 25 years...The last 7-8 years, very intensely at times.
Wow, very impressive. And in these 8 hard years (far longer than myself), you've never come across 4/59 and 12/100 which tells you what 'tawil' is ? Doesn't say much for your concentration then, does it?
I have also been through 'nearly' all the posts in free-minds,some in submission.org,tolu islam,dr shabbirs forum,i have read translations,interpretations and opinions of dozens of authors,as well as talking to 'quran only' and traditional muslims for 25 years also.
The same 25 years or a subsequent 25 years ? Keep piling the years up and soon you'll be the oldest person alive!
Since you've read 'nearly' all the posts, you must know how Dr Shabbir's explains Parwez's view on as-salaaat. I don't quite get it, can you explain it to me please?
I have also studied hinduism,buddhism,taoism,confuicism,new age spirituality,greek philosophy,philosophy,mysticism,paranormal,science,red indian spirituality,indigenous religions,atheism,agnosticism,polytheism,pantheism,panentheism,scientology,wicca.etc,etc...and most importantly life...And im still studying...
Commendable. Did you also treat these systems with the same casualness as you did al-quraan ?
If the quran helps you or anyone else,thats fine,i took a lot of benefit from it too...But im not going to deny other sources,or claim its superior to everything else,or complete in itself,or the only criterion,or a 'literalistically written,dogmatic,unverified' idol. Im not too worried about defending my' beliefs',or refuting your beliefs...but i am concerned about deflecting,defusing and defending against 'harmful' 'immoral' beliefs/behaviour from any source...Be they from quran,'democratic' governments,science,the bible,atheism,peoples opinions or even myself...
What is an 'idol' and can you tells us why we should believe your definition of what it is?
Are you a politician or a male cheerleader perhaps? Appealing to this emotive tone isnt helpful at this stage. I am too against 'harmful' and 'immoral' beliefs but I am not afraid to define what they are.
I will field my questions to you once more since you failed to adddress even one of them
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Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
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Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
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Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
There are more, but these will do for now. I will keep fielding these questions for your convenience until you address them or so that sincere seekers can see that you're just empty, devoid of any substance.
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Joe (about Enquirer)I have mentioned before that you are a dabbler in many things and therefore have no concrete knowledge of the basis of these many things. You say you study Buddhism, but recently you had no knowledge of it's basic tenents and I think I can say that of many another systems you claim that you are a student of.
Go easy on him, Joe. The guy needs 25 years to reach a place where 'ta'wil' is 'far-fetched meanings' D , so it might take him that long to figure out what nirvana is as well.
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Peace ?mquran?.
While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.
Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.
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While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.
Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.
Well, if and when you feel like addressing the questions, I shall be happy to read them.
In the meantime, I will ask about this notion of yours 'essence of nature' (henceforth, 'EON'. We have had an exchange about this before but if you like, I'd like to start afresh on this point. I use the term khulqullah (lit, the evolvements of Allah) which would approximate to your 'essence of nature'.
Without a book, you're left with empirical observations to determine EON, correct? How would you go about imposing meaning onto the empirical observations? In order to determine a system by which mankind should live, how would you go about it?
I hope you will continue (as I notice you have above) to take my questions in the inquisitive spirit in which they were asked. They are meant to deconstruct, make no mistake but I am not out to convince, just to see if there's anything from your position which I missed.
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Peace open-mind. Your understanding of the verses seems reasonable,though i would say,incomplete. First i will say that these verses are often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'islam' (in the narrow sense,ie only followers of quran or muhammed.) being acceptable to god. In other words jews,christians or other 'non-muslims' will go to hell upon their judgement. I see that you may not be saying this,so that point is not addressed to you....Your understanding though commendable,is incomplete for me in the 'real' world,and theoretically,because;
A)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.Your understanding may make sense to you,and im happy if you use that understanding positively for the good of yourself and others...But you cant really expect people who do not share your understandings to neglect their own rationality and ideas,just because its sufficient for you...I have not pushed my opinions or tried to convince people by pseudo-intellectual methods or 'politicians' rhethoric.(im not saying you have,but others have.) ...As for you claiming i have insulted people...well if i have wrongfully done that,i apologise for the perceived insults....i hope you and others will also be consistent,and also address the insults that have been thrown about by others towards myself,magi,danish,agentxxx,peacefulmuslim,elke,ichephren (in other threads.) and others who are trying to use their own minds... The tone of a posters response will sometimes be met by me with either a counter-defense or silence...if thats perceived as an insult,then im sorry,but in the real world some people only learn the 'hard way'...
Peace all. Ps;have i insulted you?...You have questioned my integrity through the vantage point of a computer screen... Others have done this too...while claiming to be upholding this quran which contains the salvation of mankind?...
Peace all. -
I don't think I've seen a topic get so many posts on a saturday! Keep em coming guys, really, I'm having quite a time reading them.
Here's some interesting clips...
Who's against quran? I'm against the literal harmful interpretations. But it's an excellent read. Even though it has contradictions across the board. Which might not really be contradictions, just bad harmful literal interpretations. It has created chaos in the world. I'm not saying dont read it. Better to learn from more than one source. There's many scriptures you can learn from. You're trusting your future in a book? The problem is it's hard to understand, and it says it's clear!.. and it's in arabic. And why are you being defensive and emotional!!popcorn emoticon here
LOL bro
would you like to see this clip in a flash movie?
Salam
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EnquirerA)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
Looking at the quality of reading being employed here, I wonder how anyone can take this person seriously. His 25 years of reading about Islam plus his lenghthy reading of quranic scholars (NEARLY all their posts, lol) still gives him problems with this verse.
Points to make
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2/62 and 5/69 posits that whosoever believes in Allah and the Last Day shall have no fear nor grief. That is a posit. There's no statement of 'needing to believe to be saved' etc. This is the invention of a person who reads The Quran during his morning expulsions.
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2/285 and 4/136 talk about 'al-muminoon'. Those who reach a pinnacle of imaan, to the absolute level in other words. Note that al-quraan does indeed talk of levels of salvation (the 'ashabal maymanah' and 'al-muqarribeen' being a good example). Once again, this isnt about 'needing to believe'. Enquirers DOGMATIC preconceptions about al-quraan has brought him to project this.
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2/177 is about another class of people, al-birr. This is what comes from reading translations and pretending to have read al-quraan in its original language (or pretending to have read it at all, in Enquirer's case).
B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
4/65 they judge according to Allah's system, the believers.
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
In other words, many people are the criteria. A person who critiques the Quran but doesn't dare to engage with it. So much for the courage of reason.
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.
If this person has actually opened al-quraan, he would know that belief or imaan isnt something one can hide. Imaan has a direct link to Islam or attainment of salaam. Therefore, if a person commits murder all over the place and says 'im a believer', the book will deny him this label.
Maybe another 25 years will help Enquirer realise this.
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Questions again for Enquirer
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Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
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Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
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Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
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Questions again for Enquirer
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Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
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Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
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Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
Salam mquran.
I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
Peace
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I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
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I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
Salam KGB and mquran,
He is my very close friend. I will have a word with him o
mquran, I think its our task to carryon talking and discussing with eq at this moment.