Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
-
As a side note to Ahmed, if people start discussing and rebutting in the manner so pugnacious, outwitting and deficient as yours, they might as well believe in myths, magics and mimes mercilessly.
Good, i think this is what they need to do
also mate can you please talk to me in more simpler english, I concede that you are an excellent english speaker, but can you please let go of his habit of posting whichever words you learnt in the thesauraus on a particular day that have nothing to do with what you are 'trying' to say. And that cheating at crossword puzzles is not very nice.
Thanks
-
Darbari;You have only explained your opinions of the verses,you havent refuted anything of the literal translations..
why dont u dont u show us how ?
You havent even answered many of my stated contradictions..but thats fine,you probably cant.
BS. u havent even replied to the one i answered . reply to that one first , then we will move on to the next .
-
A repeat post for Danish's convenience
Salaam to you, Danish,
Some questions if you please vis-a-vis your statement My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom, but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS. With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.
-
What problems do you see with al-quraan?
-
Is it possible that these problems, instead of being 'real', exist to your limited understanding of al-quraan itself?
-
How do you classify something as 'man's works' ? If X claims to be from God, what is your criteria to reject this assertion and classify it as man's work?
-
What should a book of God's words be like ?
thank you for your attention.
-
-
Peace mquran.Just to clarify... I read the quran in arabic,and i have studied it on and off for about 25 years...The last 7-8 years, very intensely at times.
Wow, very impressive. And in these 8 hard years (far longer than myself), you've never come across 4/59 and 12/100 which tells you what 'tawil' is ? Doesn't say much for your concentration then, does it?
I have also been through 'nearly' all the posts in free-minds,some in submission.org,tolu islam,dr shabbirs forum,i have read translations,interpretations and opinions of dozens of authors,as well as talking to 'quran only' and traditional muslims for 25 years also.
The same 25 years or a subsequent 25 years ? Keep piling the years up and soon you'll be the oldest person alive!
Since you've read 'nearly' all the posts, you must know how Dr Shabbir's explains Parwez's view on as-salaaat. I don't quite get it, can you explain it to me please?
I have also studied hinduism,buddhism,taoism,confuicism,new age spirituality,greek philosophy,philosophy,mysticism,paranormal,science,red indian spirituality,indigenous religions,atheism,agnosticism,polytheism,pantheism,panentheism,scientology,wicca.etc,etc...and most importantly life...And im still studying...
Commendable. Did you also treat these systems with the same casualness as you did al-quraan ?
If the quran helps you or anyone else,thats fine,i took a lot of benefit from it too...But im not going to deny other sources,or claim its superior to everything else,or complete in itself,or the only criterion,or a 'literalistically written,dogmatic,unverified' idol. Im not too worried about defending my' beliefs',or refuting your beliefs...but i am concerned about deflecting,defusing and defending against 'harmful' 'immoral' beliefs/behaviour from any source...Be they from quran,'democratic' governments,science,the bible,atheism,peoples opinions or even myself...
What is an 'idol' and can you tells us why we should believe your definition of what it is?
Are you a politician or a male cheerleader perhaps? Appealing to this emotive tone isnt helpful at this stage. I am too against 'harmful' and 'immoral' beliefs but I am not afraid to define what they are.
I will field my questions to you once more since you failed to adddress even one of them
-
Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
-
Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
-
Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
There are more, but these will do for now. I will keep fielding these questions for your convenience until you address them or so that sincere seekers can see that you're just empty, devoid of any substance.
-
-
Joe (about Enquirer)I have mentioned before that you are a dabbler in many things and therefore have no concrete knowledge of the basis of these many things. You say you study Buddhism, but recently you had no knowledge of it's basic tenents and I think I can say that of many another systems you claim that you are a student of.
Go easy on him, Joe. The guy needs 25 years to reach a place where 'ta'wil' is 'far-fetched meanings' D , so it might take him that long to figure out what nirvana is as well.
-
Peace ?mquran?.
While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.
Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.
-
While I was/am in receipt of your post and do understand that there are other ongoing unfinished businesses currently at stake that needs fine tuning, especially that of Ahmed's, I hopefully will get to yours sooner or later. Meanwhile, your 1, 3 & 4 points should have given you some indication of my answers already in pursuit on this thread and as well as on few others in this section, must you care to browse around and/or use the search function.
Your point #2 certainly carries the probability and much thought for negotiations, if we can only get to it in time.
Well, if and when you feel like addressing the questions, I shall be happy to read them.
In the meantime, I will ask about this notion of yours 'essence of nature' (henceforth, 'EON'. We have had an exchange about this before but if you like, I'd like to start afresh on this point. I use the term khulqullah (lit, the evolvements of Allah) which would approximate to your 'essence of nature'.
Without a book, you're left with empirical observations to determine EON, correct? How would you go about imposing meaning onto the empirical observations? In order to determine a system by which mankind should live, how would you go about it?
I hope you will continue (as I notice you have above) to take my questions in the inquisitive spirit in which they were asked. They are meant to deconstruct, make no mistake but I am not out to convince, just to see if there's anything from your position which I missed.
-
Peace open-mind. Your understanding of the verses seems reasonable,though i would say,incomplete. First i will say that these verses are often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'islam' (in the narrow sense,ie only followers of quran or muhammed.) being acceptable to god. In other words jews,christians or other 'non-muslims' will go to hell upon their judgement. I see that you may not be saying this,so that point is not addressed to you....Your understanding though commendable,is incomplete for me in the 'real' world,and theoretically,because;
A)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.Your understanding may make sense to you,and im happy if you use that understanding positively for the good of yourself and others...But you cant really expect people who do not share your understandings to neglect their own rationality and ideas,just because its sufficient for you...I have not pushed my opinions or tried to convince people by pseudo-intellectual methods or 'politicians' rhethoric.(im not saying you have,but others have.) ...As for you claiming i have insulted people...well if i have wrongfully done that,i apologise for the perceived insults....i hope you and others will also be consistent,and also address the insults that have been thrown about by others towards myself,magi,danish,agentxxx,peacefulmuslim,elke,ichephren (in other threads.) and others who are trying to use their own minds... The tone of a posters response will sometimes be met by me with either a counter-defense or silence...if thats perceived as an insult,then im sorry,but in the real world some people only learn the 'hard way'...
Peace all. Ps;have i insulted you?...You have questioned my integrity through the vantage point of a computer screen... Others have done this too...while claiming to be upholding this quran which contains the salvation of mankind?...
Peace all. -
I don't think I've seen a topic get so many posts on a saturday! Keep em coming guys, really, I'm having quite a time reading them.
Here's some interesting clips...
Who's against quran? I'm against the literal harmful interpretations. But it's an excellent read. Even though it has contradictions across the board. Which might not really be contradictions, just bad harmful literal interpretations. It has created chaos in the world. I'm not saying dont read it. Better to learn from more than one source. There's many scriptures you can learn from. You're trusting your future in a book? The problem is it's hard to understand, and it says it's clear!.. and it's in arabic. And why are you being defensive and emotional!!popcorn emoticon here
LOL bro
would you like to see this clip in a flash movie?
Salam
-
EnquirerA)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
Looking at the quality of reading being employed here, I wonder how anyone can take this person seriously. His 25 years of reading about Islam plus his lenghthy reading of quranic scholars (NEARLY all their posts, lol) still gives him problems with this verse.
Points to make
-
2/62 and 5/69 posits that whosoever believes in Allah and the Last Day shall have no fear nor grief. That is a posit. There's no statement of 'needing to believe to be saved' etc. This is the invention of a person who reads The Quran during his morning expulsions.
-
2/285 and 4/136 talk about 'al-muminoon'. Those who reach a pinnacle of imaan, to the absolute level in other words. Note that al-quraan does indeed talk of levels of salvation (the 'ashabal maymanah' and 'al-muqarribeen' being a good example). Once again, this isnt about 'needing to believe'. Enquirers DOGMATIC preconceptions about al-quraan has brought him to project this.
-
2/177 is about another class of people, al-birr. This is what comes from reading translations and pretending to have read al-quraan in its original language (or pretending to have read it at all, in Enquirer's case).
B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
4/65 they judge according to Allah's system, the believers.
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
In other words, many people are the criteria. A person who critiques the Quran but doesn't dare to engage with it. So much for the courage of reason.
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.
If this person has actually opened al-quraan, he would know that belief or imaan isnt something one can hide. Imaan has a direct link to Islam or attainment of salaam. Therefore, if a person commits murder all over the place and says 'im a believer', the book will deny him this label.
Maybe another 25 years will help Enquirer realise this.
-
-
Questions again for Enquirer
-
Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
-
Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
-
Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
-
-
Questions again for Enquirer
-
Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
-
Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
-
Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
Salam mquran.
I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
Peace
-
-
I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
-
I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
Salam KGB and mquran,
He is my very close friend. I will have a word with him o
mquran, I think its our task to carryon talking and discussing with eq at this moment.
-
Peace all. Here is a possible reply you could have directed to me,in response to my original post in this thread;
'Peace enquirer,...some of the verses you have quoted do not have to be taken literally,but can be taken metaphorically or synthesised with other verses,new understandings or common-sense.
We obviously disagree on the position of the quran being perfect and complete(which we maintain.),but we can say this is because of a different way of looking at the book(or a semantic difference.) or we can agree to disagree,but im sure we can try to unite on the fundamental universal morals in the book...
We do agree that some verses if taken literally can cause inconsistencies,contradictions (internal and external.) and immoral interpretations,but we maintain that the book doesnt have to be read totally literally,and can be better understood and applied in the light of reason,experience and knowledge.It is our position that used correctly the quran can be a positive 'guidance' for mankind,and when used correctly is not contradictory or inconsistent... 'Peace all'.Do you see anything wrong with the above theoretical reply to my original post?...
Ps; danish,bmbmm and agentxxx thanks for your insights... People,Try to digest especially what danish has posted...(thanks for your patience and tolerance bmbmm. .)
peace all. pps;Anybody i havent replied to yet,is because of time-considerations,lack of substance from their side,immature rude attitude,because of their unverified assumptions,asking for proofs for things which are as self-apparent/self explanatory as the sun setting,or because they seem to be somewhat incompetent in the field of rational,objective,un-emotional debate,or because i have forgot... take it easy all...
. -
Peace enquirer and all
Peace open-mind. Your understanding of the verses seems reasonable,though i would say,incomplete. First i will say that these verses are often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'islam' (in the narrow sense,ie only followers of quran or muhammed.) being acceptable to god.
I hope you can see that these verses being "often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'Islam'" by other people does not mean that my understanding is incomplete and more importantly, that the Qur'an is contradictory.
In other words jews,christians or other 'non-muslims' will go to hell upon their judgement. I see that you may not be saying this,so that point is not addressed to you....Your understanding though commendable,is incomplete for me in the 'real' world,and theoretically,because;
My understanding not fitting your understanding or other 'Muslims' understanding does not make mine incomplete. And surely, you can see this does not mean the Qur'an itself is contradictory.
There is a difference between a logical contradiction and applying your own interpretation to verses - then saying the Qur'an is contradictory. I hope you can see this.
A)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
Arranging verses certainly clears up this 'ambiguity'.
2177 actually gives a list of the good deeds.
Righteous are people who
• Believe in God
• Believe in the Last Day
• And do good deeds, such as
-Believe in the Angels
-Believe in the Scripture,
-Believe in the prophets
-Give the money, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;
-Uphold the Commitment (Salat) and Purification (Zakat)B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
I don't; God does.
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.Can you list some "practical details"?..
If the Qur'an didn't give a specific 'detail' that we humans desire; it does not mean the Qur'an left out 'practical details, instead the Qur'an keeps it general.
Your understanding may make sense to you,and im happy if you use that understanding positively for the good of yourself and others...But you cant really expect people who do not share your understandings to neglect their own rationality and ideas,just because its sufficient for you...
Firstly, When have I done that? It seems like that piece of advice is better fit for yourself. I never asked anyone to neglect their own rationality and ideas....?.. I am completely fine with you, or anyone else having their own interpretations, I even stated that earlier in this thread. I didn't press it on others; I simply gave my interpretation.
Secondly, the mere fact of this shows that the Qur'an is not contradictory. Again, pressing one's interpretations on the Qur'an then saying the Qur'an is contradictory because it doesn't fit those interpretations is not a logical, objective contradiction. Surely, you can see this. Once you do, you will see that all your 'contradictions' contain this factor.
I have not pushed my opinions or tried to convince people by pseudo-intellectual methods or 'politicians' rhethoric.(im not saying you have,but others have.)
I have to disagree.
...As for you claiming i have insulted people...well if i have wrongfully done that,i apologise for the perceived insults....
I appreciate the apology - but it would have been better if we hadn't gone there in the first place. But thank you for your sudden kindness.
i hope you and others will also be consistent,and also address the insults that have been thrown about by others towards myself,magi,danish,agentxxx,peacefulmuslim,elke,ichephren (in other threads.) and others who are trying to use their own minds...
Show these insults and I'm sure an admin will talk to whoever is insulting.
The tone of a posters response will sometimes be met by me with either a counter-defense or silence...
I completely disagree. I don't want to be harsh, but you started out arrogant and very smug.
if thats perceived as an insult,then im sorry,but in the real world some people only learn the 'hard way'...
?
Peace all. Ps;have i insulted you?...You have questioned my integrity through the vantage point of a computer screen... Others have done this too...while claiming to be upholding this quran which contains the salvation of mankind?...
Peace all.I've questioned your integrity? I'm sure in person, you are kind. However, as far as your behavior on this forum goes - you have not come off as kind. But by looking at this post, you are changing.
I wish you would have started out like this - humble, kind, bringing forth points/arguments and actually wanting to discuss. Hopefully you will stay this way.
Peace
-
Peace open-mind.I am trying to have a decent discussion with you because you seemed to be trying to be civil,and you had some good points also... We obviously have different opinions,and thats fine...If you get benefit from the quran,and interpret it so that it makes sense to you,while you do good deeds,then thats fantastic and i have no real qualms with you...Dont be offended by me saying your view is incomplete,thats from my point of view and experience.
I can see the difference between certain views being contradictory and others not so...however my position from the start has been that if you take some verses 'literally' it will definately make the book inconsistent and contradictory. An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.) Now if this is taken literally then all physically blind people will go to hell... o... This you can see is inconsistent with verses on justice,gods mercy etc...And also goes against reasonable logic. The quran is full of examples like this,where literalism destroys the internal and external consistency of the text.If only god can know if a person believes in god,then i expect nobody to call another person a 'disbeliever...this also makes the verse on the relations of believers to disbelievers in the quran meaningless and non-applicable because nobody except god can know who a believer is...
Practical details of good deeds;bringing up your children with love,care and attention,helping an old lady across the road,spending time with lonely people,relief of suffering people by practical means,finding a cure for cancer,etc...
As for the insults directed to myself and others,i dont feel the need to contact the admins(i am a big boy. .),but i will point out that why have you only mentioned my perceived insults (which i have apologised for.) when you have not said anything to any other posters...have you read some of abs or nabis posts or mqurans posts,not just to me,but too others too? (nabis mainly confined to me. .)
My point on the 'real' world is that some people do not understand debate and courtesy when it comes to their opinions being challenged,so i chose to respond with some 'forthrightness' and home truths,...But if you noticed,i did not respond strongly to you, because you were reasonable with me... If the only time you saw my posts was when i had to respond strongly to a group of people,that does not mean my posting is always aggressive,or that i am not entitled to defend myself from the 'outbursts' of others.
Take it easy. Peace all. -
An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.)
1772 And whosoever is blind in this, then he will be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the path.It would be interesting to find out if someone here has ever claimed that quran is 100% literal only. Following this example, does anyone believe this verse (218. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not revert. ) is talking about people with physical abnormalities? ???
Peace