Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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EnquirerA)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
Looking at the quality of reading being employed here, I wonder how anyone can take this person seriously. His 25 years of reading about Islam plus his lenghthy reading of quranic scholars (NEARLY all their posts, lol) still gives him problems with this verse.
Points to make
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2/62 and 5/69 posits that whosoever believes in Allah and the Last Day shall have no fear nor grief. That is a posit. There's no statement of 'needing to believe to be saved' etc. This is the invention of a person who reads The Quran during his morning expulsions.
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2/285 and 4/136 talk about 'al-muminoon'. Those who reach a pinnacle of imaan, to the absolute level in other words. Note that al-quraan does indeed talk of levels of salvation (the 'ashabal maymanah' and 'al-muqarribeen' being a good example). Once again, this isnt about 'needing to believe'. Enquirers DOGMATIC preconceptions about al-quraan has brought him to project this.
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2/177 is about another class of people, al-birr. This is what comes from reading translations and pretending to have read al-quraan in its original language (or pretending to have read it at all, in Enquirer's case).
B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
4/65 they judge according to Allah's system, the believers.
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
In other words, many people are the criteria. A person who critiques the Quran but doesn't dare to engage with it. So much for the courage of reason.
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.
If this person has actually opened al-quraan, he would know that belief or imaan isnt something one can hide. Imaan has a direct link to Islam or attainment of salaam. Therefore, if a person commits murder all over the place and says 'im a believer', the book will deny him this label.
Maybe another 25 years will help Enquirer realise this.
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Questions again for Enquirer
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Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
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Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
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Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
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Questions again for Enquirer
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Please give an example of a quranic teaching which is 'harmful'.
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Please tell us about these 'historical sources' which contradict the Quran. Please AUTHENTICATE these historical sources.
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Please show us where al-quraan enjoins 'JUST self-reference' as to its understanding and interpretation.
Please be sincere and answer the responses to your allegations against al-quraan. 'hit and run' comments are the trademark of Trolls, people who plague forums to get attention, without displaying any substance.
Salam mquran.
I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
Peace
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I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
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I do not like your tone here. You should ask nicely, perhaps than someone will be more sincere to discuss.
I used 'please', what more do you ask for ?
Bmbmm, this person doesn't respond to ANYTHING which UNDERMINES his belief system. He will post alleged contradictions one after another and not care whatever your response is for one simple reason He knows he doesnt understand it but his need to have people join him in his rejection is paramount. He is like a non-religious version of a salafi. He calls himself 'open-minded' but he is unequivocally CLOSED to the idea that al-quraan is from Allah.
The three questions I posted were specifically worded to show that this person doesn't know HOW Al-quraan is interpreted, never mind actual verification of an interpretation.
Why don't you try asking him these questions in a nicer tone and see how far it gets you. I'll watch from the sidelines.
Salam KGB and mquran,
He is my very close friend. I will have a word with him o
mquran, I think its our task to carryon talking and discussing with eq at this moment.
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Peace all. Here is a possible reply you could have directed to me,in response to my original post in this thread;
'Peace enquirer,...some of the verses you have quoted do not have to be taken literally,but can be taken metaphorically or synthesised with other verses,new understandings or common-sense.
We obviously disagree on the position of the quran being perfect and complete(which we maintain.),but we can say this is because of a different way of looking at the book(or a semantic difference.) or we can agree to disagree,but im sure we can try to unite on the fundamental universal morals in the book...
We do agree that some verses if taken literally can cause inconsistencies,contradictions (internal and external.) and immoral interpretations,but we maintain that the book doesnt have to be read totally literally,and can be better understood and applied in the light of reason,experience and knowledge.It is our position that used correctly the quran can be a positive 'guidance' for mankind,and when used correctly is not contradictory or inconsistent... 'Peace all'.Do you see anything wrong with the above theoretical reply to my original post?...
Ps; danish,bmbmm and agentxxx thanks for your insights... People,Try to digest especially what danish has posted...(thanks for your patience and tolerance bmbmm. .)
peace all. pps;Anybody i havent replied to yet,is because of time-considerations,lack of substance from their side,immature rude attitude,because of their unverified assumptions,asking for proofs for things which are as self-apparent/self explanatory as the sun setting,or because they seem to be somewhat incompetent in the field of rational,objective,un-emotional debate,or because i have forgot... take it easy all...
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Peace enquirer and all
Peace open-mind. Your understanding of the verses seems reasonable,though i would say,incomplete. First i will say that these verses are often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'islam' (in the narrow sense,ie only followers of quran or muhammed.) being acceptable to god.
I hope you can see that these verses being "often used to justify the exclusive acceptability of only 'Islam'" by other people does not mean that my understanding is incomplete and more importantly, that the Qur'an is contradictory.
In other words jews,christians or other 'non-muslims' will go to hell upon their judgement. I see that you may not be saying this,so that point is not addressed to you....Your understanding though commendable,is incomplete for me in the 'real' world,and theoretically,because;
My understanding not fitting your understanding or other 'Muslims' understanding does not make mine incomplete. And surely, you can see this does not mean the Qur'an itself is contradictory.
There is a difference between a logical contradiction and applying your own interpretation to verses - then saying the Qur'an is contradictory. I hope you can see this.
A)it is unclear in 262 and 569 if you only need to believe in god,the last day and do good deeds,or you have to believe in the quran,prophet,angels with wings etc... as well,because other parts of the book seem to require this.(eg 4136,2285,2177.) This can be said to be ambiguous and inconsistent to some.
Arranging verses certainly clears up this 'ambiguity'.
2177 actually gives a list of the good deeds.
Righteous are people who
• Believe in God
• Believe in the Last Day
• And do good deeds, such as
-Believe in the Angels
-Believe in the Scripture,
-Believe in the prophets
-Give the money, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;
-Uphold the Commitment (Salat) and Purification (Zakat)B)there are so many different ways of understanding 'god' in the real world,and from different view-points that how can you tell if a person actually believes in god?
I don't; God does.
Many people on this forum who believe in god and the quran cannot come to a consensus on what constitutes belief in god practically,or even what/who god is...
So how can you practically apply the verses on who has belief in 'god' and who does not? Also is judgement day literal or metaphorical?,and how do you classify good deeds practically?...The quran just gives guidelines and outlines of 'good' deeds,not practical details.Can you list some "practical details"?..
If the Qur'an didn't give a specific 'detail' that we humans desire; it does not mean the Qur'an left out 'practical details, instead the Qur'an keeps it general.
Your understanding may make sense to you,and im happy if you use that understanding positively for the good of yourself and others...But you cant really expect people who do not share your understandings to neglect their own rationality and ideas,just because its sufficient for you...
Firstly, When have I done that? It seems like that piece of advice is better fit for yourself. I never asked anyone to neglect their own rationality and ideas....?.. I am completely fine with you, or anyone else having their own interpretations, I even stated that earlier in this thread. I didn't press it on others; I simply gave my interpretation.
Secondly, the mere fact of this shows that the Qur'an is not contradictory. Again, pressing one's interpretations on the Qur'an then saying the Qur'an is contradictory because it doesn't fit those interpretations is not a logical, objective contradiction. Surely, you can see this. Once you do, you will see that all your 'contradictions' contain this factor.
I have not pushed my opinions or tried to convince people by pseudo-intellectual methods or 'politicians' rhethoric.(im not saying you have,but others have.)
I have to disagree.
...As for you claiming i have insulted people...well if i have wrongfully done that,i apologise for the perceived insults....
I appreciate the apology - but it would have been better if we hadn't gone there in the first place. But thank you for your sudden kindness.
i hope you and others will also be consistent,and also address the insults that have been thrown about by others towards myself,magi,danish,agentxxx,peacefulmuslim,elke,ichephren (in other threads.) and others who are trying to use their own minds...
Show these insults and I'm sure an admin will talk to whoever is insulting.
The tone of a posters response will sometimes be met by me with either a counter-defense or silence...
I completely disagree. I don't want to be harsh, but you started out arrogant and very smug.
if thats perceived as an insult,then im sorry,but in the real world some people only learn the 'hard way'...
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Peace all. Ps;have i insulted you?...You have questioned my integrity through the vantage point of a computer screen... Others have done this too...while claiming to be upholding this quran which contains the salvation of mankind?...
Peace all.I've questioned your integrity? I'm sure in person, you are kind. However, as far as your behavior on this forum goes - you have not come off as kind. But by looking at this post, you are changing.
I wish you would have started out like this - humble, kind, bringing forth points/arguments and actually wanting to discuss. Hopefully you will stay this way.
Peace
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Peace open-mind.I am trying to have a decent discussion with you because you seemed to be trying to be civil,and you had some good points also... We obviously have different opinions,and thats fine...If you get benefit from the quran,and interpret it so that it makes sense to you,while you do good deeds,then thats fantastic and i have no real qualms with you...Dont be offended by me saying your view is incomplete,thats from my point of view and experience.
I can see the difference between certain views being contradictory and others not so...however my position from the start has been that if you take some verses 'literally' it will definately make the book inconsistent and contradictory. An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.) Now if this is taken literally then all physically blind people will go to hell... o... This you can see is inconsistent with verses on justice,gods mercy etc...And also goes against reasonable logic. The quran is full of examples like this,where literalism destroys the internal and external consistency of the text.If only god can know if a person believes in god,then i expect nobody to call another person a 'disbeliever...this also makes the verse on the relations of believers to disbelievers in the quran meaningless and non-applicable because nobody except god can know who a believer is...
Practical details of good deeds;bringing up your children with love,care and attention,helping an old lady across the road,spending time with lonely people,relief of suffering people by practical means,finding a cure for cancer,etc...
As for the insults directed to myself and others,i dont feel the need to contact the admins(i am a big boy. .),but i will point out that why have you only mentioned my perceived insults (which i have apologised for.) when you have not said anything to any other posters...have you read some of abs or nabis posts or mqurans posts,not just to me,but too others too? (nabis mainly confined to me. .)
My point on the 'real' world is that some people do not understand debate and courtesy when it comes to their opinions being challenged,so i chose to respond with some 'forthrightness' and home truths,...But if you noticed,i did not respond strongly to you, because you were reasonable with me... If the only time you saw my posts was when i had to respond strongly to a group of people,that does not mean my posting is always aggressive,or that i am not entitled to defend myself from the 'outbursts' of others.
Take it easy. Peace all. -
An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.)
1772 And whosoever is blind in this, then he will be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the path.It would be interesting to find out if someone here has ever claimed that quran is 100% literal only. Following this example, does anyone believe this verse (218. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not revert. ) is talking about people with physical abnormalities? ???
Peace
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Peace
Peace open-mind.I am trying to have a decent discussion with you because you seemed to be trying to be civil,and you had some good points also... We obviously have different opinions,and thats fine...If you get benefit from the quran,and interpret it so that it makes sense to you,while you do good deeds,then thats fantastic and i have no real qualms with you...Dont be offended by me saying your view is incomplete,thats from my point of view and experience.
Thank you.
I didn't get offended.
I can see the difference between certain views being contradictory and others not so...however my position from the start has been that if you take some verses 'literally' it will definately make the book inconsistent and contradictory. An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.) Now if this is taken literally then all physically blind people will go to hell... ... This you can see is inconsistent with verses on justice,gods mercy etc...And also goes against reasonable logic. The quran is full of examples like this,where literalism destroys the internal and external consistency of the text.
Like zenje said; I don't think there's anyone who take things 100% literally. Surely, no one takes 1772 literally. I might be wrong; can you show me where people on this forum have taken the Qur'an that literally?
If only god can know if a person believes in god,then i expect nobody to call another person a 'disbeliever...this also makes the verse on the relations of believers to disbelievers in the quran meaningless and non-applicable because nobody except god can know who a believer is...
I haven't called anyone a disbeliever and I apologize for anyone who has.
You are right; only God knows what is truly in a person's heart. However, I believe sometimes, we can judge using the Qur'an. Let's use Christians who claim Jesus is God as an example; claiming that a human is God is clearly shirk or idolatry.
GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.
Indeed, they are disbelievers. I'm not judging, but the Qur'an is.
Practical details of good deeds;bringing up your children with love,care and attention,helping an old lady across the road,spending time with lonely people,relief of suffering people by practical means,finding a cure for cancer,etc...
I'm not understanding what you're saying; Qur'an doesn't say these things so it's not complete? or.. ?
As for the insults directed to myself and others,i dont feel the need to contact the admins(i am a big boy. .),but i will point out that why have you only mentioned my perceived insults (which i have apologised for.) when you have not said anything to any other posters...have you read some of abs or nabis posts or mqurans posts,not just to me,but too others too? (nabis mainly confined to me. .)
I admit AB can get wild at times, but Joe and mquran did not insult you. Let me quote page 1 of the thread
mquran's post
please provide the literal translation and tell us why its contradictory.
Your response
Peace mquran. Its contradictory because it first says everything is from god,...and then says that bad is from us. The only way this is resolved is if we are god. Cheesy ? idea
If you want to post the literal translation,feel free,but i wont waste my time spoon-feeding you verses. Im sure you know the verses (as do many others.),so you or anyone else quote whichever version of verses you want.Do you see what I'm talking about? -\
My point on the 'real' world is that some people do not understand debate and courtesy when it comes to their opinions being challenged,so i chose to respond with some 'forthrightness' and home truths,...But if you noticed,i did not respond strongly to you, because you were reasonable with me... If the only time you saw my posts was when i had to respond strongly to a group of people,that does not mean my posting is always aggressive,or that i am not entitled to defend myself from the 'outbursts' of others.
Take it easy. Peace all.That's fine. But looking at the quotes between you and mquran as well as other posts, it seems like that isn't completely true.
Peace
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An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.)
1772 And whosoever is blind in this, then he will be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the path.It would be interesting to find out if someone here has ever claimed that quran is 100% literal only. Following this example, does anyone believe this verse (218. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not revert. ) is talking about people with physical abnormalities? ???
Peace
Good morning bro
of course the Quran is not literal 100%
thrir problem is simply they take the unliteral to be literal and they take the literal to be unliteral,
Peace
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Peace openmind. we obviously can agree to disagree...you made some good points in you post...I found one part of your post a little disturbing...you said claiming jesus is god,or that a man is god is clear shirk or idolotary,and while you dont judge them,the quran does...and you agree....Well im afraid that is judging,youve just subjugated your 'judgement process' to a book.
So in essence when you say 'only god can judge',this is slightly incorrect,no?As for the literalism,the example i gave was just that,an example...what about the chopping of hands off? Is that ok literally? or a stick turning into a snake?
or 100 believing soldiers beating 1000 'non-believing' soldiers? (can that happen in mordern warfare,or even a 12 ratio?,see 865-66.) or lot offering his daughters to the 'deviant' people without thinking about if his daughters wanted to get married, or compatibilty of partners? Or the sea parting into two great 'mountain like' masses? Or god in a throne,in the sky,on the water? Or jonah in the 'belly' of a whale,and getting out just by uttering certain words? etc... How do we know which parts are literal and which are not?...if you say by our intelligence,then this was/is one of my main points i have been saying from the start...If you take the quran literally in some places (or dont apply your intelligence to the book properly.) then the quran will contradict and be inconsistent with its 'clearer verses' and common sense humanity.By only quoting from page one of the thread you assumed that i took the lead in agression wrongfully to mquran...but you did not see that this thread started in response to a 'seperate thread' where i was talking to mquran,you also dont take into account that sometimes a person has to be more 'forthright' in their opinions when talking to posters who debate in 'different,more direct ways'...i feel you are being a little biased here... (you seemed to brush aside abs comments as being a bit wild sometimes,while taking me too task for my behaviour,some of which i apologised for.)...but anyway thats just my opinions,and others can verify the perceived 'unfounded 'agression' for themselves. You are entitled to your opinions and i dont hold anything against you...
peace all. ps;zenje,ab,saladin,nabi,mquran,savage carrot or anyone else,i apologise for any wrongful insults i may have directed to you,and i would appreciate if you just explained your understandings of these literal verses...we dont have to debate them...you can explain the verses for the good of the forum...im not being sarcastic... Also note;i dont think we have to justify with reams/mountains of evidence on certain points...eg 'i love my parents'...'What is your 'reason' or 'evidence for loving them'?..Answer'; 'because my 'heart' and intelligence tells me to'...(in other words,my internal verified opinion...which can be subjective or different to yours,can still be valid or true.) -
100 believing soldiers beating 1000 'non-believing' soldiers
No numbers mentioned in the Quran saying this..what about the chopping of hands off?
It doesn't say chop, it says cut, as in marking. See comparison with the arabic word used with the women in the Yousouf story.or a stick turning into a snake?
Even in literal terms it refers to something else.Or the sea parting into two great 'mountain like' masses
It doesn't say this, it says the waters residing, as in floods.Or jonah in the 'belly' of a whale,and getting out just by uttering certain words
It doesn't say this, it says, he was almight caught by a fish if God wasn't the one who allowed him to be saved. It says almost ended up in the belly, as also whale ain't no fish.I understand what you try to do, as you know how i think. But i couldn't let these mistakes go by, as they're wrong examples. Sorry to intrude...
peace
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salam moderators and all .
how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran" for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because addressing many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ? -
Isn't it amazing that a "1400 year old book" talks of people in this era?
Peace bro
Honest to Allah man, this is one of the main things that made me believe that the Quran is the words of Allah, this discovery happened to me in my early twinties, how amazing this book is bro, humans will be lost without the Quran, they are now lost to a degree because they dont implement the Quran, even the majority of the muslims themselves
Peace
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salam moderators and all .
how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran" for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because discussnig many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ?I second that, the muslims should have an organised way to reply to these alleged contradictions
Salam
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can agree to disagree...you made some good points in you post...I found one part of your post a little disturbing...you said claiming jesus is god,or that a man is god is clear shirk or idolotary,and while you dont judge them,the quran does...and you agree....Well im afraid that is judging,youve just subjugated your 'judgement process' to a book.
Yes, al-quraan judges. Don't YOU judge ? You have judged al-quraan to be certain things. You claim adherence to an old book to be unsound behaviour. So it's ok FOR YOU to judge, but al-quraan can't judge?
OpenMind, please ask this person this. Do not just submit to his agenda. ASK HIM and you will see the results. Question the tools with which he is questioning al-quraan. Do not just accept his tools or his categorisations.
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Peace,
I agree. Also Darbaari, did you read my answer to your questions about the periods and such in this thread? As i wondered if i answered them correctly...