Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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Peace
Peace open-mind.I am trying to have a decent discussion with you because you seemed to be trying to be civil,and you had some good points also... We obviously have different opinions,and thats fine...If you get benefit from the quran,and interpret it so that it makes sense to you,while you do good deeds,then thats fantastic and i have no real qualms with you...Dont be offended by me saying your view is incomplete,thats from my point of view and experience.
Thank you.
I didn't get offended.
I can see the difference between certain views being contradictory and others not so...however my position from the start has been that if you take some verses 'literally' it will definately make the book inconsistent and contradictory. An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.) Now if this is taken literally then all physically blind people will go to hell... ... This you can see is inconsistent with verses on justice,gods mercy etc...And also goes against reasonable logic. The quran is full of examples like this,where literalism destroys the internal and external consistency of the text.
Like zenje said; I don't think there's anyone who take things 100% literally. Surely, no one takes 1772 literally. I might be wrong; can you show me where people on this forum have taken the Qur'an that literally?
If only god can know if a person believes in god,then i expect nobody to call another person a 'disbeliever...this also makes the verse on the relations of believers to disbelievers in the quran meaningless and non-applicable because nobody except god can know who a believer is...
I haven't called anyone a disbeliever and I apologize for anyone who has.
You are right; only God knows what is truly in a person's heart. However, I believe sometimes, we can judge using the Qur'an. Let's use Christians who claim Jesus is God as an example; claiming that a human is God is clearly shirk or idolatry.
GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.
Indeed, they are disbelievers. I'm not judging, but the Qur'an is.
Practical details of good deeds;bringing up your children with love,care and attention,helping an old lady across the road,spending time with lonely people,relief of suffering people by practical means,finding a cure for cancer,etc...
I'm not understanding what you're saying; Qur'an doesn't say these things so it's not complete? or.. ?
As for the insults directed to myself and others,i dont feel the need to contact the admins(i am a big boy. .),but i will point out that why have you only mentioned my perceived insults (which i have apologised for.) when you have not said anything to any other posters...have you read some of abs or nabis posts or mqurans posts,not just to me,but too others too? (nabis mainly confined to me. .)
I admit AB can get wild at times, but Joe and mquran did not insult you. Let me quote page 1 of the thread
mquran's post
please provide the literal translation and tell us why its contradictory.
Your response
Peace mquran. Its contradictory because it first says everything is from god,...and then says that bad is from us. The only way this is resolved is if we are god. Cheesy ? idea
If you want to post the literal translation,feel free,but i wont waste my time spoon-feeding you verses. Im sure you know the verses (as do many others.),so you or anyone else quote whichever version of verses you want.Do you see what I'm talking about? -\
My point on the 'real' world is that some people do not understand debate and courtesy when it comes to their opinions being challenged,so i chose to respond with some 'forthrightness' and home truths,...But if you noticed,i did not respond strongly to you, because you were reasonable with me... If the only time you saw my posts was when i had to respond strongly to a group of people,that does not mean my posting is always aggressive,or that i am not entitled to defend myself from the 'outbursts' of others.
Take it easy. Peace all.That's fine. But looking at the quotes between you and mquran as well as other posts, it seems like that isn't completely true.
Peace
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An example being in the quran; 'that those who were blind in this life will be blind in the next life'.(forgot the verse number,im sure someone else can help.)
1772 And whosoever is blind in this, then he will be blind in the Hereafter and more astray from the path.It would be interesting to find out if someone here has ever claimed that quran is 100% literal only. Following this example, does anyone believe this verse (218. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not revert. ) is talking about people with physical abnormalities? ???
Peace
Good morning bro
of course the Quran is not literal 100%
thrir problem is simply they take the unliteral to be literal and they take the literal to be unliteral,
Peace
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Peace openmind. we obviously can agree to disagree...you made some good points in you post...I found one part of your post a little disturbing...you said claiming jesus is god,or that a man is god is clear shirk or idolotary,and while you dont judge them,the quran does...and you agree....Well im afraid that is judging,youve just subjugated your 'judgement process' to a book.
So in essence when you say 'only god can judge',this is slightly incorrect,no?As for the literalism,the example i gave was just that,an example...what about the chopping of hands off? Is that ok literally? or a stick turning into a snake?
or 100 believing soldiers beating 1000 'non-believing' soldiers? (can that happen in mordern warfare,or even a 12 ratio?,see 865-66.) or lot offering his daughters to the 'deviant' people without thinking about if his daughters wanted to get married, or compatibilty of partners? Or the sea parting into two great 'mountain like' masses? Or god in a throne,in the sky,on the water? Or jonah in the 'belly' of a whale,and getting out just by uttering certain words? etc... How do we know which parts are literal and which are not?...if you say by our intelligence,then this was/is one of my main points i have been saying from the start...If you take the quran literally in some places (or dont apply your intelligence to the book properly.) then the quran will contradict and be inconsistent with its 'clearer verses' and common sense humanity.By only quoting from page one of the thread you assumed that i took the lead in agression wrongfully to mquran...but you did not see that this thread started in response to a 'seperate thread' where i was talking to mquran,you also dont take into account that sometimes a person has to be more 'forthright' in their opinions when talking to posters who debate in 'different,more direct ways'...i feel you are being a little biased here... (you seemed to brush aside abs comments as being a bit wild sometimes,while taking me too task for my behaviour,some of which i apologised for.)...but anyway thats just my opinions,and others can verify the perceived 'unfounded 'agression' for themselves. You are entitled to your opinions and i dont hold anything against you...
peace all. ps;zenje,ab,saladin,nabi,mquran,savage carrot or anyone else,i apologise for any wrongful insults i may have directed to you,and i would appreciate if you just explained your understandings of these literal verses...we dont have to debate them...you can explain the verses for the good of the forum...im not being sarcastic... Also note;i dont think we have to justify with reams/mountains of evidence on certain points...eg 'i love my parents'...'What is your 'reason' or 'evidence for loving them'?..Answer'; 'because my 'heart' and intelligence tells me to'...(in other words,my internal verified opinion...which can be subjective or different to yours,can still be valid or true.) -
100 believing soldiers beating 1000 'non-believing' soldiers
No numbers mentioned in the Quran saying this..what about the chopping of hands off?
It doesn't say chop, it says cut, as in marking. See comparison with the arabic word used with the women in the Yousouf story.or a stick turning into a snake?
Even in literal terms it refers to something else.Or the sea parting into two great 'mountain like' masses
It doesn't say this, it says the waters residing, as in floods.Or jonah in the 'belly' of a whale,and getting out just by uttering certain words
It doesn't say this, it says, he was almight caught by a fish if God wasn't the one who allowed him to be saved. It says almost ended up in the belly, as also whale ain't no fish.I understand what you try to do, as you know how i think. But i couldn't let these mistakes go by, as they're wrong examples. Sorry to intrude...
peace
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salam moderators and all .
how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran" for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because addressing many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ? -
Isn't it amazing that a "1400 year old book" talks of people in this era?
Peace bro
Honest to Allah man, this is one of the main things that made me believe that the Quran is the words of Allah, this discovery happened to me in my early twinties, how amazing this book is bro, humans will be lost without the Quran, they are now lost to a degree because they dont implement the Quran, even the majority of the muslims themselves
Peace
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salam moderators and all .
how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran" for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because discussnig many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ?I second that, the muslims should have an organised way to reply to these alleged contradictions
Salam
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can agree to disagree...you made some good points in you post...I found one part of your post a little disturbing...you said claiming jesus is god,or that a man is god is clear shirk or idolotary,and while you dont judge them,the quran does...and you agree....Well im afraid that is judging,youve just subjugated your 'judgement process' to a book.
Yes, al-quraan judges. Don't YOU judge ? You have judged al-quraan to be certain things. You claim adherence to an old book to be unsound behaviour. So it's ok FOR YOU to judge, but al-quraan can't judge?
OpenMind, please ask this person this. Do not just submit to his agenda. ASK HIM and you will see the results. Question the tools with which he is questioning al-quraan. Do not just accept his tools or his categorisations.
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Peace,
I agree. Also Darbaari, did you read my answer to your questions about the periods and such in this thread? As i wondered if i answered them correctly...
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how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran" for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because discussnig many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ?
Good idea. The problem is finding critics. Enquirer will simply turn a deaf ear once you answer. You need someone with integrity, honesty and open-mindedness.
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peace all. ps;zenje,ab,saladin,nabi,mquran,savage carrot or anyone else,i apologise for any wrongful insults i may have directed to you,and i would appreciate if you just explained your understandings of these literal verses...we dont have to debate them...you can explain the verses for the good of the forum...im not being sarcastic...
if we keep explaining the "contradictions" and u keep ignoring our explanations , then whats the use ? u at least gotta tell us whether and why u disagree with our explanation .
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Peace arnoldyasin. Yes,i understand you position..you take the verses in a different way/translation,using your intelligence (i hope!)..which is to be highly commended...
However,i want to see how other members (who do not agree with your 'symbolisms' or different translations.) come to terms with these translations...
How about 'literal' angels with wings?,...,abraham planning to sacrifice his innocent son,even though 'god never commands evil'?
Most especially,why did god command iblis to submit to adam,when the rest of the quran implies that sujood should only be done to god alone?
I know this verse can be 'rectified' if you take it 'metaphorically' (as can some of the others ive mentioned.) but at what point do we draw the line with 'explaining away' every verse that causes us 'difficulty' or is inconsistent with other verses/common sense/science?...if people want to explain every verse according to symbolism or to try to make it consistent internally and externally..for the benefit of mankinds 'peaceful' guidance...then that is great...But cant we then say this is another way of looking at the quran,without too much literalism,and through the lens of our conscience?...
Peace all. -
I agree. Also Darbaari, did you read my answer to your questions about the periods and such in this thread? As i wondered if i answered them correctly...
peace.
no , i m sorry , i didnt read your answers . can u please provide me the link to your post ? thanks . -
Peace darbari. ok,you say these sunnat of allah are specific to just those verses,so i wont discuss that with you...(im sure many 'quran only' would disagree,and it would be nice of them to explain the verses if they think/agree that allah does not ever change his sunnat or laws.) Ok,then explain those list of strange literal occurences like a stick turning into a snake,virgin birth etc,etc...
Most especially what does sujood to adam mean when you should only do sujood to allah alone? Any takers?...Salam enq
you now make me laugh man ), ok, I'm not a Quran alone follower but brother darbari explanation is 100% spot on, why you are always in denial?
Peace All, , please enq, show us that you can handle the truth
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Peace darbari. I will acknowledge peoples explanations,and say whether i agree or not,...this is obviously conditional on peoples mannerisms and if they actually respond to what i am saying... not what they 'assume' i am saying...
peace all; ps;ab;i deny the immoral literalism,and why do you assume YOU have the truth?
I can 'handle' some of your 'truths' because they are not truths,they are YOUR opinions. -
ps;ab;i deny the immoral literalism,
great, i deny it too, but you have to convince me first that physically cutting the hand of a thief "If we take the quran 100% literal" is immoral, as well punishing the Zani and the Zania with 100 lashes in public is immoral?
at the same time you have to explain to me why executing a drug trafficer in singapore and other countries is moral?
and why do you assume YOU have the truth?
because it makes sense, but don't make it global truth, i mean the truth regarding each contradiction
I can 'handle' some of your 'truths' because they are not truths,they are YOUR opinions.
very weak refute to the opinions, at least show me how these opinions are flawed, but I need somthin that makes sense please
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Peace,
Darbaari
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5550.msg82695#msg82695This is my best understanding for now, would like some critic on it....
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I too support the suggestion of having a seperate category as has been posted. The title is quite good as has been given 'Criticism on the quran'. This will stop threads with the same issues spouting all over the place as has been currently seen. Next time we see these issues, those threads or people can be asked to take it down to the category in question, therefore keeping the forum organized. Thanks Fahad!