Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

unknownuser

salam moderators and all .
how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran&quot for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because discussnig many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ?

I second that, the muslims should have an organised way to reply to these alleged contradictions

Salam

mquran

can agree to disagree...you made some good points in you post...I found one part of your post a little disturbing...you said claiming jesus is god,or that a man is god is clear shirk or idolotary,and while you dont judge them,the quran does...and you agree....Well im afraid that is judging,youve just subjugated your 'judgement process' to a book.

Yes, al-quraan judges. Don't YOU judge ? You have judged al-quraan to be certain things. You claim adherence to an old book to be unsound behaviour. So it's ok FOR YOU to judge, but al-quraan can't judge?

OpenMind, please ask this person this. Do not just submit to his agenda. ASK HIM and you will see the results. Question the tools with which he is questioning al-quraan. Do not just accept his tools or his categorisations.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I agree. Also Darbaari, did you read my answer to your questions about the periods and such in this thread? As i wondered if i answered them correctly...

mquran

how about creating a seperate category(title="Criticism on the Quran&quot for discussion on these "contradictions" . where different "contradictions" can be discussed in seperate threads . because discussnig many so called "contradictions" in a single thread can be difficult . what do u all say ?

Good idea. The problem is finding critics. Enquirer will simply turn a deaf ear once you answer. You need someone with integrity, honesty and open-mindedness.

Fahad1

peace all. ps;zenje,ab,saladin,nabi,mquran,savage carrot or anyone else,i apologise for any wrongful insults i may have directed to you,and i would appreciate if you just explained your understandings of these literal verses...we dont have to debate them...you can explain the verses for the good of the forum...im not being sarcastic...

if we keep explaining the "contradictions" and u keep ignoring our explanations , then whats the use ? u at least gotta tell us whether and why u disagree with our explanation .

unknownuser

Peace arnoldyasin. Yes,i understand you position..you take the verses in a different way/translation,using your intelligence (i hope!)..which is to be highly commended...
However,i want to see how other members (who do not agree with your 'symbolisms' or different translations.) come to terms with these translations...
How about 'literal' angels with wings?,...,abraham planning to sacrifice his innocent son,even though 'god never commands evil'?
Most especially,why did god command iblis to submit to adam,when the rest of the quran implies that sujood should only be done to god alone?
I know this verse can be 'rectified' if you take it 'metaphorically' (as can some of the others ive mentioned.) but at what point do we draw the line with 'explaining away' every verse that causes us 'difficulty' or is inconsistent with other verses/common sense/science?...if people want to explain every verse according to symbolism or to try to make it consistent internally and externally..for the benefit of mankinds 'peaceful' guidance...then that is great...But cant we then say this is another way of looking at the quran,without too much literalism,and through the lens of our conscience?...
Peace all.

Fahad1

I agree. Also Darbaari, did you read my answer to your questions about the periods and such in this thread? As i wondered if i answered them correctly...

peace.
no , i m sorry , i didnt read your answers . can u please provide me the link to your post ? thanks .

unknownuser

Peace darbari. ok,you say these sunnat of allah are specific to just those verses,so i wont discuss that with you...(im sure many 'quran only' would disagree,and it would be nice of them to explain the verses if they think/agree that allah does not ever change his sunnat or laws.) Ok,then explain those list of strange literal occurences like a stick turning into a snake,virgin birth etc,etc...
Most especially what does sujood to adam mean when you should only do sujood to allah alone? Any takers?...

Salam enq

you now make me laugh man ), ok, I'm not a Quran alone follower but brother darbari explanation is 100% spot on, why you are always in denial?

Peace All, , please enq, show us that you can handle the truth

unknownuser

Peace darbari. I will acknowledge peoples explanations,and say whether i agree or not,...this is obviously conditional on peoples mannerisms and if they actually respond to what i am saying... not what they 'assume' i am saying...
peace all; ps;ab;i deny the immoral literalism,and why do you assume YOU have the truth?
I can 'handle' some of your 'truths' because they are not truths,they are YOUR opinions.

Fahad1

Peace darbari. I will acknowledge peoples explanations,and say whether i agree or not,...

and if u disagree , how about telling us WHY ? or WHAT IS WRONG with our explanations . so far , u havent done this a single time .

unknownuser

ps;ab;i deny the immoral literalism,

great, i deny it too, but you have to convince me first that physically cutting the hand of a thief "If we take the quran 100% literal" is immoral, as well punishing the Zani and the Zania with 100 lashes in public is immoral?

at the same time you have to explain to me why executing a drug trafficer in singapore and other countries is moral?

and why do you assume YOU have the truth?

because it makes sense, but don't make it global truth, i mean the truth regarding each contradiction

I can 'handle' some of your 'truths' because they are not truths,they are YOUR opinions.

very weak refute to the opinions, at least show me how these opinions are flawed, but I need somthin that makes sense please

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Darbaari
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5550.msg82695#msg82695

This is my best understanding for now, would like some critic on it....

savage_carrot

I too support the suggestion of having a seperate category as has been posted. The title is quite good as has been given 'Criticism on the quran'. This will stop threads with the same issues spouting all over the place as has been currently seen. Next time we see these issues, those threads or people can be asked to take it down to the category in question, therefore keeping the forum organized. Thanks Fahad!

Fahad1

Peace,

Darbaari
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5550.msg82695#msg82695

This is my best understanding for now, would like some critic on it....

thanks . i will read it . but i dont remember if i had asked any questions about periods/days? or did i ? ???

arnoldyasin

i answered somebody, or did i? But indeed i can't find you questions, weird.....i thought it was you........

unknownuser

Peace ab,darbari and all. Darbari;ok,if you didnt get my post with open-mind or others,heres a summaryi dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc... Especially when there are alternative symbolisms,or jails,rehabilitation centres,modern technologies which are better and more suited to todays society,humanity and context... hope that answers some of your questions. Im not against all of your attempts at translations of the quran...just some..And those are MY opinions...

Ab; first,you have to take every 'crime' on its merits and in context,...not have a fixed,pre-conceived,literal,innappropriate,ancient,out of date punishment ready for the 'crime'....Do you travel by car or by camel every time? Do you have a computer or send a pigeon for your messages? Do you read your quran from parchments/scrolls or can you read it from printed bound books,or even the internet? In other words cant technology/situations/science/understanding/interpretations evolve with time and study?
If you think its moral to chop a hand off for theft,or whip 100 times for adultery or crucify for capital punishment in this age of jails,rehabilitation centres,alternative humane punishments,psychological study etc...then we obviously have different views of morality.... By the way,do you believe in dna for crimes or do we need 4 witnesses? How many witnesess do we need for rape,or gay-sex etc...
How long would some of the posters who post 'unfounded allegations' about others last with the 80 lashes for 'allegations without 4 witnesses',rule?
And who said anything about singapore?...are your punishment laws valid literally for all times and all situations?... well how come so many muslims would disagree with their literal implementation in todays society? (or are they all incorrect except a select few who agree with you?) I doubt many of you could literally 'stomach' the literal reality of these punishments in todays society...(have you seen stonings,beheadings,whippings,amputations?.....not a pretty sight...also,what if you get an innocent person,will you give their hand or life back?)
I have my own opinions on morality. Just like i love my mother because of my own 'heart','natural intellect',morality and my opinion tells me too...thats the same 'heart,intellect,morality and opinion that makes me find some of these literal translations immoral....Hope thats enough evidence for you and others...if not,then tell me the evidence you have,or need that a person should try to take care of his family,or love his children?....
peace all.

Fahad1

Peace ab,darbari and all. Darbari;ok,if you didnt get my post with open-mind or others,heres a summaryi dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc... Especially when there are alternative symbolisms,or jails,rehabilitation centres,modern technologies which are better and more suited to todays society,humanity and context... hope that answers some of your questions. Im not against all of your attempts at translations of the quran...just some..And those are MY opinions...

what are u talking about ? i dont think i even addressed any of the above mentioned "translations".
what i showed u was why the two or more verses are not in contradiction with each other . u asked me to address the other "contradictions" too , but i asked u to reply to my explanations first . i.e WHY do u not agree with THAT explanation .

Fahad1

i dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc...

and these are not contradictions .

unknownuser

Hello Ahmed,

Care to educate me on my points below which I believe were not touched in the manner approached, keeping the discussion simple without extra baggage and undesirable interference? If that is not your intention, then I beg to debar from participation and conclude your behavioral discussions as good-for-nothing beliefs.

780-82
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before! "You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people." His people responded by saying, "Evict them from your town. They are people who wish to be pure."

2928-29
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you. "You practice sex with the men, you commit highway robbery, and you allow all kinds of vice in your society." The only response from his people was to say, "Bring to us GOD's retribution, if you are truthful."

In 780-82, Lot talks to his people about the abominations/crimes and his people evicts them from their town when in 2928-29, his people only asks for him to bring GOD?s retribution for the same abomination/crimes.
Both verses talk about the same event in relations to Lot, his people, his enemy, place and time, collected and patched up at different places in the Quran, hence the repetition, yet differ in its presentation. This also proves, as is evident in several other exact cases/stories throughout the Quran, what 8015 is talking about where two or more people are involved in Quran?s compilation methods (exactly as historical analysis demands).
Note If you think that the above two verses talks about seperate events at seperate times, then I will bringforth other events that are time restrained and still convey dissimilarities.
In 2928-29, no punishment or eviction is observed for more crimes (same sex, robbery and other immoral practices), against one crime (same sex) with an eviction.

Please also explain why several case scenarios and stories have been repeated in a multiple yet incoherent and inconsistent fashion at various stages throughout the Quran, alleging the infallibleness of its construction and presentation, especially when coming from Allah?

mquran

For the people who believe in al-quraan, some humble thoughts regarding this exchance.

Please notice Enquirer is now CHANGING THE SUBJECT. The subject is 'are there any contradictions in al-quraan'. This is a simple yes/no question but now, we now have to pander to what HE believes. Who cares what he believes in? Are there any contradictions, yes or no ? THAT'S the question.
Enquirer's assumptions are NEVER questioned.
a. What is 'moral' ?
b.What is 'good'?
c. What is 'open-minded'?
d. Why is modernity automatically accepted as 'good'?
Do ask him these things because his understanding of them are as shaky as his understanding of al-quraan. It's no good accepting his assumptions and defending al-quraan while pandering to his precarious assumptions.