Free Minds now Anti Qur'an forum.
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Peace mr mquran. I will re-iterate my point that when you have some new or decent points to make,i will respond to you...
That's laughable. You only respond by slogans, never by substance because you're devoid of any.
Most of your questions i have answered on other threads. Its quite ironic you cant even be 'civil' to people who actually do believe in the quran like peaceful-muslim,elke,ichephren etc...
Firstly, lack of 'civilty' is a matter of opinion. I admit being brusque but not rude and I really don't mind people thinking otherwise.
Also, once again this shows your inadequate study of the book. I have never met peacefulmuslim, elke, ichepren. I don't know who they are or what agenda they carry. 'belief in the quran' is something one carries forward in the world, so I reserve judgement as to whom these people are. To me, it's all about al-quraan. If you speak against al-quraan and are a person with honesty and integrity, you will provide evidence. Otherwise, what are you but an empty vessel ?
I will clarify once again,i dont mind what you or anyone believes..i only mind when your or other peoples beliefs cause harm to yourself or others...
Define 'harmful'. Please show me where al-quraan enjoins 'harmful' beliefs (as per your comment in another post).
And as for my views on certain topics...Well i have posted my opinions many times on different threads...So just re-read them and then ask me if ive changed my mind,or to clarify myself...Is that ok? My opinions are just that...my opinions...I dont ask you to believe them...Verify things for yourself...
You have made allegations about al-quraan. I ask you for proof. If you have none, then say so. If you don't feel you need to provide any, then say so. You will be more respected for honesty than if you worm about not providing evidence.
Peace all; ps;just posting verses to justify your own viewpoints doesnt always refute someone or make your view correct. Apple-pie used more details and verses than most on this forum,yet most disagreed with him,and i would say he was mistaken in his views....Some sunnis use loads of verses to justify the 'obligation' to follow the sunnah and 'physical' salat etc,are they correct then?... If your quranic evidence is valid and a refutation,then apple-pie and abu-hurairah(no1historical sunni narrator of hadiths.) are also correct in their views.
Listen Lote-tree, oops I mean Enquirer. If you promise me as a decent human being that you will answer my questions in the contradictions thread , the 3 questions regarding your allegations about al-quraan, I will show you where the mistakes of Apple-Pie are. I just don't bother with Apple Pie at present because it's a waste of time, Apple Pie isn't someone who thinks, only pastes. Lastly, if you think Abu Hurairah is even worth mentioning, then I think you need another 25 years of 'on and off' study.
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Peace layth and all. Dont you think though,that experimenting with the 'real' meanings of the quranic verses has also caused untold harm and mischief on the earth...I mean so-called islamic governments,extremists,extreme sunnis and terrorist organisations are all 'experimenting' and trying to apply the qurans 'social laws'...are they not?
Did Abrahams 'natural' pondering and behaviour cause death,ignorance and misery?
Peace all. -
peace everybody,
i think certain people on this forum are being accused of baselessly attacking the quran. I think that is not true, no one (as far as i know) has anything against the quran. All they are saying is that the quran is not enough if we aren't following our conscience. I think those islamic terrorists are a good example of what they are saying. what you learn from the quran depends on what you want to learn.
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Peace layth and all. Dont you think though,that experimenting with the 'real' meanings of the quranic verses has also caused untold harm and mischief on the earth...I mean so-called islamic governments,extremists,extreme sunnis and terrorist organisations are all 'experimenting' and trying to apply the qurans 'social laws'...are they not?
Did Abrahams 'natural' pondering and behaviour cause death,ignorance and misery?
Peace all.Even now if nobody is able to identify the culprit then what can I say about it.
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Peace phoenix. Thank you for understanding my position,and clarifying that no-one is necessarily saying the quran is 'useless' or attacking it baselessley...
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Peace mquran. If you say that lack of 'civility' is a matter of opinion...And you dont bring undeniable proof from the quran,or verifications for this opinion of yours...then whats your problem with other peoples opinions?...
peace all. ps;if the quran helps you to be good and moral in life,thats really great, and im happy for you...But that doesnt mean everyone will agree,believe,or behave exactly as you do.... -
Salaam
Some here seem to truly think/believe their interpretations to be 100% right and act around as if they are the spokepersons of Allah..
And as for some others, who do not believe Quran to be the word of God, so be it.........why should there be a compulsion
?It is very difficult to respond to very general attacks on the Quran, however those that have problem with the Quran could site reason or examples then an intelligent debate could be had, otherwise it becomes a competetion for generalised mud slinging.
Thank you for understanding my position,and clarifying that no-one is necessarily saying the quran is 'useless' or attacking it baselessley...
From the above I can only assume that you have genuine bases for attacking the Quran so Ok lets have the bases of your attacks and then we can discuss their merits.
regards -
Salaam
Some here seem to truly think/believe their interpretations to be 100% right and act around as if they are the spokepersons of Allah..
And as for some others, who do not believe Quran to be the word of God, so be it.........why should there be a compulsion
?It is very difficult to respond to very general attacks on the Quran, however those that have problem with the Quran could site reason or examples then an intelligent debate could be had, otherwise it becomes a competetion for generalised mud slinging.
Thank you for understanding my position,and clarifying that no-one is necessarily saying the quran is 'useless' or attacking it baselessley...
From the above I can only assume that you have genuine bases for attacking the Quran so Ok lets have the bases of your attacks and then we can discuss their merits.
regardsThat is why I urge to have some abstract summery of beliefs, so that it can be easy to pay everyone in his coin.
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Peace,
VE says
so that it can be easy to pay everyone in his coin.
Why this urge in you VE ?
peace,
Why this urge not in you Beta97?
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Peace stilllearning. I think there is a difference between 'attack' and constructive criticism,is there not? There is a thread in the general section on 'contradictions in the quran'...if you want,read or post in that thread,then we can discuss...as long as the debate is civil/productive... Thank you.
Peace all. -
Enquirer Peace layth and all. Dont you think though,that experimenting with the 'real' meanings of the quranic verses has also caused untold harm and mischief on the earth
If by 'experimenting with real meanings', you mean what you generally do with al-quraan (i.e. pretend it has a contradiction and refuse to comment when its been answered), then yes. You are simply the secular version of Al-Muhajiroon. Same mentality, different camps. In 2003, Al-Muhajiroon quoted a verse about the ashaabul-kahf and used it to praise the 19 terrorists of 9/11. You do the same thing with your shallow, decontextualised analysis of the Quran.
I mean so-called islamic governments,extremists,extreme sunnis and terrorist organisations are all 'experimenting' and trying to apply the qurans 'social laws'...are they not?
If you think they are, then we can now know for a fact that you have been telling us porkies about your experience with the Quran. I challenge you to produce the verses they use for their 'social laws'. Just one.
Did Abrahams 'natural' pondering and behaviour cause death,ignorance and misery?
His didn't because HE was open-minded. You only think you are.
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Peace mquran. If you say that lack of 'civility' is a matter of opinion...And you dont bring undeniable proof from the quran,or verifications for this opinion of yours...then whats your problem with other peoples opinions?...
Get this right, Enquirer. I LOVE free discussion. I grew up in a household of free discussion and it was free discussion which catalysed the reality of my position.
You may be ADVOCATING it but you are not PRACTISING free discussion. One simple proof You only know how to mount criticisms. When they are answered, you run back to your hiding place and wait to come out with another attack.
Is this following your philosophy of 'open minded'ness ?
Does 'open minds' include the possibility that al-quraan is from Allah?
These questions which you won't answer will tell us if you're a sincere human being or not.
peace all. ps;if the quran helps you to be good and moral in life,thats really great, and im happy for you...But that doesnt mean everyone will agree,believe,or behave exactly as you do....
Nice red herring there. Once again, I will repeat for your convenience
I am NOT interested in converting you. There's no organisation which gives me free toasters for every 10 people I win over. And personally, I dont think another Omar Bakri will help the Quranic cause anyhow.
I AM interested in confronting your position. By your very first post to me, your arrogance was already showing (statements like 'do you really believe'. Well Sir, I DO believe and what's more, I am asking you to prove my position wrong. The Quran is beneath your sensibilities, right? It's just some cobwebby old book right? Then debunk it. What are you waiting for ? Why are we supporters of the Quran having to constantly beg you to answer our responses?
So far, you have proven that you don't even know the fundamental principles of tafseer. You make claims that al-quraan is harmful, enjoins only self-reference and rubbish like that. If you're so established in your reading, do prove it. Whatever you want to me say to be 'polite' (i'll address you 'his royal highness' if you want), I'll do it. Just stop hiding and start discussing.
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Peace mquran...Mistaken assumptions and accusations...is this from your 'version' of 'quranic' behaviour?...
I have put some new posts in the 'contradictions in the quran' thread'..address them if you wish...
The reasons i dont get into answering your questions is not just because of your mannerisms/style/ wrongful accusations,but also because your posts are too emotional,straw-man like,and you dont seem to understand my position clearly...if i was one to run away from discusssions,how come i am discussing with the poster called 'open-mind' on that very same thread in a civil,slow,evidence based manner?...I try to discuss when i feel some benefit in discussing,not to engage in hot-air/emotional/harmful disputes...Thank you...
Peace all. -
Hi SC and all,
Peace pm,
Read zenje's post. I think thats what some people are irked by.I understand u'rs and zenje's views. But I doubt if thats what this thread is about.
And also there have also been loads of personal bashing lately.Personally, I feel there is much emphasis here on what people claim to be rather than what they actually are. There are some here who quote Quran in every other post, but yet their behaviour down here doesnt seem to reflect Quran at all. Same goes for some of the 'so-called' muslims in the world.
We all have a freedom to believe what we sense in, as long as it isnt harmful to others and our own selves. So, Yeah some see Quran to be the word of God while some dont, which is fair enough. There is no compulsion in faith. And we are all answerable to God one day for all our beliefs, all our actions........... So, why fight over these differences out here in the world? Why cant we all live in peace inspite of our differences? Why is there a need for 'my faith is better than urs' or 'my religion is better than urs' or 'my god is better than urs'. We all know well enough that on the day if/when we meet our creator, all truth will be known. So, why dont we live sensible untill then?
Peace!
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Peace PM,
I understand what you are saying and agree with you in the big picture sense. As long as we can get a seperate category for these issues, I think I'll be happy. I see that changing things in a good way for all concerned.
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salaam pm
Personally, I feel there is much emphasis here on what people claim to be rather than what they actually are. There are some here who quote Quran in every other post, but yet their behaviour down here doesnt seem to reflect Quran at all. Same goes for some of the 'so-called' muslims in the world.
Correct. I think these whole debates are often a game and messaging exercise for their egos. If the behaviour reflected the Quran then (i) May actually believe what they say (ii) Actually understand what they often quote.
regards -
Peacefulmuslim There are some here who quote Quran in every other post, but yet their behaviour down here doesnt seem to reflect Quran at all. Same goes for some of the 'so-called' muslims in the world.
And others who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin. Go figure.
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Peace mquran...Unquranic,uncivil accusations without evidence...? o Any proof of these lies you claim are being told?...do you know peoples intentions? Are your mistakes/shortcomings in interpretating the quran,lies too?... (you know proof,which you always ask other people to give in huge quantities.) Does your behaviour reflect your 'correct' beliefs?... Thank you...
peace all. ps;very nice analysis peaceful-muslim.