Please Help Me.
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Peace,
this surah was meant for the prophet and his people and has no direct reference to us. So it doesn't matter if we know it or not who he was and what he did.
Peace
So you totally put the matter to the river.
If I agree what are you saying then followin is true
1- Quran is not for all ages. Only some verses are.
2- This surah has no meaning and is extra in quran.
3- Allah wanted us to not understand this surah so that we just keep guessing and saying that it does not belong to us.
4- If we can not understand some verses in Quran then we should assume that it is not for us.
5- If we dont undersatand about who was Lahab and his wife then we just quit the issue by just GUESSING that it has something to do with prophet.
6- We invent story that Lahab must have done somthing wrong with prophet that he was cursed. But we dont know what did he do so that we can learn lesson.
7- Not knowing even a single bit about this surah's context, we are totally BLIND.Sincerely,
VirtualEye.
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Ok, then i understand. Yes, you can call it history. but i'm a bit carefull with that, cause in my studies with also other traditions, we can see that people make up stories with the information given in their books. So anybody could have made an story about an Abulahab and his wife, by knowing the name from the Quran and how they are judged in it. The first stories that were spread mostly came from storytellers that made their living travelling from town to town, and filling stories in like that. So i'm always a bit carefull. But that is not the discussion here. I already explained VE, that even if you knew the history or not, you're not better guided, as all behaviour that is condemned is already mentioned clearly in the Quran. So it doesn't matter if we know it or not, and that is something VE tried here.
Peace
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What is the context for this surah?
he context is about wrongdoers and their companions, both of whom are dragged down to levels of degredation.
WHAT WRONG DID HE DO, WHY BOTH OF THEM, AND WHO BOTH OF THEM???
Why Allah revealed this surah?
This is the criterion, seperating and distinguishing.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? I DONT UNDERSTAND.
Who was Lahab?
The one whose works are for naught and who will come to naught.
WE MUST KNOW "WHO" WAS THIS PERSON AND WHAT DID HE DO. NO GUESSINGS PLEASE.
Who was his wife?
His companion is the one who will be dragged along with him.
THAT IS ALREADY BEING TOLD. BUT WHY HIS COMPANION WILL BE DRAGGED? WHAT DID SHE DO?
What did they do that they are being cursed?
They trust in their riches; they think it should save them.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO TRUST RICHES. THEN WHY SPECIALLY LAHAB MENTIONED IN QURAN SO ANGRILY AND HIS WIFE ALSO CURSED SO ANGRILY???
Sincerely,
VirtualEye. -
Peace,
Quote
1- Quran is not for all ages. Only some verses are.
Is that so strange? And not some verses, don't twist it. This is one of the SMALLEST sura's. more then 90% is to be understood by all ages, just as some science verses are only understood now, and not in the time of the prophet, the prophet knew himself not what some could indicate.
2- This surah has no meaning and is extra in quran.
It has no meaning for US, it had meaning for the person who knew Abulahab, the PROPHET, don't twist it, doesn't work.
3- Allah wanted us to not understand this surah so that we just keep guessing and saying that it does not belong to us.
No, you are the one who wants an answer, i understand when it doesn't matter. Even if you believe the stories, still you are not more guided, as it still had only real meaning for the prophet.This is something you can't twist out of.
4- If we can not understand some verses in Quran then we should assume that it is not for us.
Then we are not ready yet, or it has no special link to us, but every thing in the Quran has special meaning for someone.
5- If we dont undersatand about who was Lahab and his wife then we just quit the issue by just GUESSING that it has something to do with prophet.
This is no guessing, this is logical, as this can only be said to someone, and so it can only be said by the prophet to somebody who he knew. It is un-logical this was revealed for somebody who was born after the prophet, as he then would not know it was directed at him, so it can only be linked to somebody that was known to the prophet. This is so logical....
6- We invent story that Lahab must have done somthing wrong with prophet that he was cursed. But we dont know what did he do so that we can learn lesson.
All things you shoyuldn't do are already clearly mentioned in the Quran. Name me one thing that Abu lahab has done that is mentioned in the hadith, that is not mentioned in the Quran as condemned behaviour. You will find nothing.....So you are not better guided by knowing the story....
7- Not knowing even a single bit about this surah's context, we are totally BLIND.
No, you maybe, not me. i know for certain that it is linked with the prophet, that the guy is in trouble, and that he deserved it.'It shows beautifully how God supported the prophet.You are not better guided by knowing the person, you will not learn extra things to know about behaviour, as all condemned behaviour is already clearly mentioned in the Quran. This is clearly linked with the prophet as the person must know it was him that the Quran means. So it can only be said by the prophet to a person he knew. And it shows perfectly how God supported the prophet, strenghting his spirit by these suras. So there is no need to know the story. Name me ONE thing mentioned in the hadith about this story that is not mentioned in the Quran about behaviour of people who were against the prophet or about people who handle their wealth. This argument is weak....
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Ok, then i understand. Yes, you can call it history. but i'm a bit carefull with that, cause in my studies with also other traditions, we can see that people make up stories with the information given in their books. So anybody could have made an story about an Abulahab and his wife, by knowing the name from the Quran and how they are judged in it. The first stories that were spread mostly came from storytellers that made their living travelling from town to town, and filling stories in like that. So i'm always a bit carefull. But that is not the discussion here. I already explained VE, that even if you knew the history or not, you're not better guided, as all behaviour that is condemned is already mentioned clearly in the Quran. So it doesn't matter if we know it or not, and that is something VE tried here.
Peace
So you admit that you have to dig history with caution?
Since you believe in this surah as you belive in whole Quran, So you must know what is it about. Why? because its Quran only MOTIVE to not to rely on any historical HERESY or any Ahadith, and to understand Quran by themselves. If they have to rely on vuneralble history with caution then Ahadith are also vunerable history. Why dont they use that then? What is the difference in getting some idea from Ahadith to undersand Suarh AND getting some idea from vunerable history to understand Surah???VE
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This was directed to Ahmed, not you. And i don't say anything here that i use history! AB does. And i don't trust those stories as they are written more then 200 years later all by none Arabs. That it's why its not history, but propaganda. All religions have used the same tactics to make believe in these stories so they followed their ideas....
And there are scientifical means to see what can be trusted and what not. The hadith fail big time..
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Peace Arnold
I read your comment, and I have a few questions please
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how you take other stories told in the Quran then?, the many many stories that was about people that you never met and you can't verify their existance in the past
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if this sura is included in the Quran, and the Quran is for all humanity then why it can't be a message for us regarding what happned in the past exactly as the Quran told us about many other stories in the past
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if this sura is just a mere history record which I agree, isn't enough that it was told to us by Allah that we pay much attention to it even if it is a mere story from the past?
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why not it can't be an indirect prophecy that Abu lahab (The uncle of the prophet) and his wife will die kafirs?
peace
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This was directed to Ahmed, not you. And i don't say anything here that i use history! AB does. And i don't trust those stories as they are written more then 200 years later all by none Arabs. That it's why its not history, but propaganda. All religions have used the same tactics to make believe in these stories so they followed their ideas....
And there are scientifical means to see what can be trusted and what not. The hadith fail big time..
So you simply endup by saying that it has no meaning for us and was for past only. If this is the logic, then anybody can claim such things....Who will decide then which surah is for all ages and which for only past?
If a criminal is to be punished by the Islamic Law, then criminal will just claim that he is Quran only believer and has the right to interpret Quran according to this understanding, so he claims that the punishment described in quran is only for the past. Now who will deny his right of his own interpretation?
ANY PERSON HAVING SOME PROBLEM WITH SOME PART OF QURAN CAN JUST GET RID OF IT SAYING THAT IT WAS FOR THOSE PAST PEOPLE. CAN YOU DENY HIS RIGHT OF FREE THINKING???
VE
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There is NOT even a single story in Quran, in which Allah did not directly and clearly tell what the previous Nations did for which they were punished. ACTUALLY THE ONLY REASON OF NARRATIONS OF THOSE STORIES IN QURAN IS THE LESSON FOR US THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO THE SAME THINGS.
AND WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU THAT IF WE DONT UNDERSTAND SOME SURAH IN QURAN, THEN WE JUST SAY DONT BOTHER ABOUT IT AND JUST RELY ON THE REMAINING PART TO FIND OUT WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG.??
VE
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Peace Arnold
I read your comment, and I have a few questions please
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how you take other stories told in the Quran then?, the many many stories that was about people that you never met and you can't verify their existance in the past
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if this sura is included in the Quran, and the Quran is for all humanity then why it can't be a message for us regarding what happned in the past exactly as the Quran told us about many other stories in the past
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if this sura is just a mere history record which I agree, isn't enough that it was told to us by Allah that we pay much attention to it even if it is a mere story from the past?
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why not it can't be an indirect prophecy that Abu lahab (The uncle of the prophet) and his wife will die kafirs?
peace
Ther is not a single story in Quran, in which Allah did not directly and clearly tell what the previous Nations did for which they were punished. ACTUALLY THE ONLY REASON OF NARRATIONS OF THOSE STORIES IN QURAN IS THE LESSON FOR US THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO THE SAME THINGS.
sure, i know that
AND WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU THAT IF WE DONT UNDERSTAND SOME SURAH IN QURAN, THEN WE JUST SAY DONT BOTHER ABOUT IT AND JUST RELY ON THE REMAINING PART TO FIND OUT WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG.??
VE
sorry?, did i say that one hell told me anything? can you please clarify
Thanks
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AND WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU THAT IF WE DONT UNDERSTAND SOME SURAH IN QURAN, THEN WE JUST SAY DONT BOTHER ABOUT IT AND JUST RELY ON THE REMAINING PART TO FIND OUT WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG.??
VE
sorry?, did i say that one hell told me anything? can you please clarify
Thanks
Sorry that was for Arnold Shwazniger. )
VE
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Ok thanks bro, i realized that, i was just a bit quick for you
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Peace,
AB, the thing is, where the information comes from, who wrote it done and why? So that is why i study theology now to investigate this all. We know more about Jesus from non-christian sources, them Muhammed where by all sources all came from a certain group. A group that i distrust. That is the big difference. Also a lot of things can be archeological verified, and found in multiple records from outside sources. This is not the case with Muhammed, so that is why i'm carefull.
VE, as this sura is clear, as it directly refers to a historic person that was connected with the prophet. And who is the only one that benifited from this knowledge? The prophet!! Does it benefit you? NO. Can you learn form Abulahab's behaviour which is not mentioned already inside the Quran? NO.
So no, you cannot just say a law is for the people of the past, as that would be clear from the text itself. In this sura it directly mentioned for a historical person. 2 individuals, and it doesn't give any laws besides it. So this is an ignorant claim, you have poor arguments VE. There is not a law, that is dubious if it is for us, or other people. All laws are clear in the Quran, there can be no doubt about that. But this is no law, this is a sura directed to 2 persons that clearly were fighting the prophet. Even if you believe the hadith story about Abu lahab, EVEN THEN YOU WOULD KNOW THIS IS NOT MEANT FOR YOU AND ME, BUT FOR HIM AND HIS WIFE AND THE PROPHET AND HIS direct FOLLOWERS. So it is clear however you look at the story it is not meant for us. Are you better guided by knowing he and his wife go to Hell? NO. Is there any behaviour told in the hadith that is not mentioned in the Quran? NO.
There is no way people can use this argument to dismiss certain laws, and still i learn from the story, without hadith, that God supported the prophet with spiritual strength by showing his enemies would not get away with their behaviour. And like you said yourself, everytime God gives a people as an example, he also tells why they are an example!
Peace
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Peace,
Can you learn form Abulahab's behaviour which is not mentioned already inside the Quran? NO.
Peace
Yes Alhamdulillah, Because I am sunni. I can understand all context and purpose with the help of Ahadith.
By the way your comments saying
connected to prophet
connected to prophet
connected to prophet
connected to prophet........
connected to prophet
......
...Where is it written that it is connected to prophet? Maybe AbuLahad did some abuse to Allah directly or did something wrong to other muslims or invented some Bidah. Who told you that it must be connected to Prophet?
Now dont just again justify your beliefs by giving vague arguments. Please -X
Regards.
VE -
Peace,
AB, the thing is, where the information comes from, who wrote it done and why? So that is why i study theology now to investigate this all. We know more about Jesus from non-christian sources, them Muhammed where by all sources all came from a certain group. A group that i distrust. That is the big difference. Also a lot of things can be archeological verified, and found in multiple records from outside sources. This is not the case with Muhammed, so that is why i'm carefull.
peace mate
but you didn't answer the rest of the questions
There is no way people can use this argument to dismiss certain laws, and still i learn from the story, without hadith, that God supported the prophet with spiritual strength by showing his enemies would not get away with their behaviour. And like you said yourself, everytime God gives a people as an example, he also tells why they are an example!
Peace
This tells me that you learnt something from the story, therefore you took it as it was directed to you, why denying this fact then?
Peace
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Peace,
VE, you haven't answered one single question. NOT ONE. Give me one hadith that says something about Abulahab's behaviour that is not already clearly mentioned in the Quran, you can't! So your argument has failed. So the only lesson i get from the surah, is that God strenghtened the people of the time of the revelation with this. As He already says throughtout the Quran, He will support and strenghten the faithfull.
And it is clearly linked to the prophet, because a threat/judgement can only work and help, if the person knows he is the subject. Every sura has a purpose, every verse. And this sura can only has a purpose if the person knows he is being talked too. If an abu lahab was born after, he can say;"how do i know it is directed to me? Maybe it is meant for another Abu lahab?Maybe he lived already before me, or is till gonna live after me."
So what is left? Only an Abu lahab that the prophet must have known, or his people must have known. Otherwise the information has no value. The persons must have done direct harm to the people or/and the prophet, for this sura to have any purpose as threat, and as support for the enemies of Abu lahab.
Ok let's create a scene
I'm an oppressor, and i have oppressed you or a people your connected with, or people who are directly connected with the revelation. Or i live or lived in the area, and my behaviour is so bad, people and you know God will not accept it. And you get an revelation about that i'm going to hell. If you werent oppressed by me, or people connected with you, or you would not know me, you would ask yourself what the hell has this revelation have to do with me?So for the information to have any value, the person must be known in your present or the past, and it must be clear it refers to a certain person you're familiar with or people who will directly hear the revelation. Because it clearly shows the person rejects the truth, otherwise he wouldn't be condemned. So the revelation must be meant for the people who want him to be condemned as they are oppressed by him, or his behaviour is so bad, they know God will not accept that. So this sura is directly connected with the time of the revelation.
Because a person knowing a person with the same name 200 years after the revelation, can only guess a bit if it is meant for him. Even if the person is bad. He would wonder, could it be true? And the condemnation would loose its power.
So my logic tells me, that the threat only has real power if it is directed to a person that is connected with the time of the revelation. As the prophet would know a Abulahab, dead or alive, he would know the person's behaviour is not good. Even if the prophet would not have known him immediately, he would wait to the person comes in his life. Because when he meets the person, he would know it is meant for that person. Then the surah can give strenght, as it clearly meant to strenghten the faithfull. It is meant for the persons that knew an Abu lahab, and to rest their minds that Abulahab will not get away with his behaviour.
A person living a time after the prophet would always wonder if the prophet not already have met an Abulahab, and would be carefull to link this with a person in his own time that carries the same name.
And ABSorry but i'm answerring 2 guys at the same time it seems. And i'm at work, so i can't write answers all the time now.
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how you take other stories told in the Quran then?, the many many stories that was about people that you never met and you can't verify their existance in the past
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if this sura is included in the Quran, and the Quran is for all humanity then why it can't be a message for us regarding what happned in the past exactly as the Quran told us about many other stories in the past
-
if this sura is just a mere history record which I agree, isn't enough that it was told to us by Allah that we pay much attention to it even if it is a mere story from the past?
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why not it can't be an indirect prophecy that Abu lahab (The uncle of the prophet) and his wife will die kafirs?
1.No, because as i told, most people told in the Quran, can be traced from multiple sources, this is not the case with Muhammed, so i'm just more carefull.
2.This is true, but like i said, i'm just more carefull with these sources. But a lot of people told in the Quran can be traced through archeology and mulltiple outside sources. This is again not the casew ith Muhammed. So i'm more carefull.
3.You think you can learn something from it? A behaviour not already mentioned in the Quran? The only value that it has, was spiritual support and comfort for the people who knew Abu lahab and knew now he wouldn't get away with his behaviour. That for sure, he wouldn't be forgiven. So it shows what God tells through the whole Quran, that he supports and strenghtens the faithfull.
4.It is a prophecy, but does it matter if it is the uncle or anybody else? clearly it meant to strenghten the people who are connected with him, and want him not to get away with his behaviour.
Peace
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Peace,
Peace
Dear Arnold, I will read you long comment later one,,,for the moment I will like to give answer of your ONE QUESTION
For the moment I only give references from Bukhari.
Refer to Bukhari
volume 2, book 23, Hadith 477
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 293
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 325
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 475
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 495
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 496
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 497
volume 6, book 61, Hadith 506ENOUGH ???
VE
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Peace be upon you,
(1111-5) Father of the flame's hand was condemned/destroyed/lost, condemned/destroyed/lost indeed. His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him. He will roast/suffer/burn (in) a flaming fire, and his wife who carries the logs. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
SYMBOLISM, not literal. We are not given staories like Santa Claus and Easter Bunny to believe in like little kids, unable to verify the truth of it. These stories describe character traits that we can see in real life human beings throughout time, including today.
"Father" is a male character to imply this person is one who GIVES something, as oppossed to the woman who recieves. The story is one of a person who loved the wordly life "...His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him..." but the worldy life is INFERIOR to spirituality. The internal world is SUPERIOR to the external world. So this is a person who speaks out against spirituality in favor of wordly material gains, thereby bringing the FLAME upon him of Hell, meaning his wrong thougts and actions lead him to misery inside while he/she thinks they are going to success.
The Male is the thoughts the female is the visual image which work together to lead us down our paths in life. This is not about literal people, but the psychology of all people who have these traits. At this time I cannot comprehend the rope around her neck.
This way we can VERIFY this story by observing life, not blind belief that can never be verified therfroe ALWAYS having an element of doubt. When there is an element of doubt we cant muster the strength to live truth, we need a solid foundation to build upon, not a sandy cliff.
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Peace,
volume 2, book 23, Hadith 477
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 293
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 325
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 475
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 495
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 496
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 497
volume 6, book 61, Hadith 506So just for refuting Muhammed in that way, you believe he is going to perish in hell forever. Funny that you give 8 hadith, that all tell the same thing. That a man is cursed for rejecting it, while in the Quran, people are given chances till death to repent. That is why i don't believe these hadith. It contradicts the Quran's rule that every person gets a chance till death to repent. This is your proof? Your 'enough'?
Do you think Muhammed needed a revelation to say that? Do you think a man is cursed from the beginning, like that? This is not the way of the Quran, as it gives a direct curse on abu lahab, while everybody can repent till the end. And don't say God already knew he was going to reject, because then you contradict the story of moses and the pharoah. Of course God knows and knew, but for us, free will is still present, as we don't compass God's knowledge. But that is different.Believe what you want VE, but these hearsay reports are not to be trusted. And like i said already. GIVE ME ONE HADITH THAT I NEED THAT SHOWS ABU LAHAB'S BEHAVIOUR IS NOT ALREADY DESCRIBED IN SOME WAY IN THE QURAN. You can't. You can't proof i need hadith to understand this story. I know somebody is cursed, and just like idolfree shows, if we translate it, we get a metaphorical meaning that fits perfectly. Translate the word or not, still i don't need any hadith to appreciate the surah more or understand it better.
Muhammed called everybody to safa, and he asked, do any of you believe me when i say there is an army coming; yes of course the people reply. Then you also believe me when i say i have a revelation from God?
Abu lahab said; is that what you called us for? may your hands perish! And then suddenly God will react like a 14 year old kid No you perish! You really think this gives the surah more strenght? I believe it even limits it strength, as the most powerfull book on earth is used for a curse fight with a person who doesn't believe in the book anyway. You think God would have wasted His Revelation on that? You think Muhammed couldn't have said it himself? Is this the same prophet that allowed trash to be thrown over his head for a couple of years without any word? Is this the same Muhammed that forgave everybody in Mecca, even his biggest enemies? After 14 years of oppression, he says not a harsh word against his biggest enemies, not the prophet nor God. But the first time somebody rejected him, God says; perish!Yeah right!, This contradicts everything, this contradicts all other hadiths were the prophet is forgiving and never harsh, even against his biggest enemies, that has done as much as Abulahab and his wife. This doesn't fit and contradicts. That is why i don't swallow it. The stories doesn't fit together. You can get any Muhammed you want from the hadith, a murderer, raper, a saint, an angel, a dictator, the nicest man on earth, a child who needs God to learn him to curse a man. It all contradicts each other to much. That is why i don't even trust the stories that are so-called 'proven' by the Quran. Any body could have made these stories using the words mentioned in the Quran. And there were a lot of story tellers traveling, they were normal. They were the news and movieteller, hollywood, the 6 o'clock news and the historychannel in one. You can see this happened anywhere, with every religion. People making up stories so they could answer peoples questions, as the people expected them to know.
The story contradicts with the Quran
16127You shall resort to patience - and your patience is attainable only with GOD's help. Do not grieve over them, and do not be annoyed by their schemes.4243But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.
Is this the same God, that calls for patience, but curses a person from the start? NO.....
Even Pharoah who has been worse then the Abu lahab from the hadith, is not even cursed, even he gets a chance...2043-44"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;
"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."People have till their death to understand
1090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
(It was said to him) "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!Peace