Please Help Me.
-
Peace,
AB, the thing is, where the information comes from, who wrote it done and why? So that is why i study theology now to investigate this all. We know more about Jesus from non-christian sources, them Muhammed where by all sources all came from a certain group. A group that i distrust. That is the big difference. Also a lot of things can be archeological verified, and found in multiple records from outside sources. This is not the case with Muhammed, so that is why i'm carefull.
peace mate
but you didn't answer the rest of the questions
There is no way people can use this argument to dismiss certain laws, and still i learn from the story, without hadith, that God supported the prophet with spiritual strength by showing his enemies would not get away with their behaviour. And like you said yourself, everytime God gives a people as an example, he also tells why they are an example!
Peace
This tells me that you learnt something from the story, therefore you took it as it was directed to you, why denying this fact then?
Peace
-
Peace,
VE, you haven't answered one single question. NOT ONE. Give me one hadith that says something about Abulahab's behaviour that is not already clearly mentioned in the Quran, you can't! So your argument has failed. So the only lesson i get from the surah, is that God strenghtened the people of the time of the revelation with this. As He already says throughtout the Quran, He will support and strenghten the faithfull.
And it is clearly linked to the prophet, because a threat/judgement can only work and help, if the person knows he is the subject. Every sura has a purpose, every verse. And this sura can only has a purpose if the person knows he is being talked too. If an abu lahab was born after, he can say;"how do i know it is directed to me? Maybe it is meant for another Abu lahab?Maybe he lived already before me, or is till gonna live after me."
So what is left? Only an Abu lahab that the prophet must have known, or his people must have known. Otherwise the information has no value. The persons must have done direct harm to the people or/and the prophet, for this sura to have any purpose as threat, and as support for the enemies of Abu lahab.
Ok let's create a scene
I'm an oppressor, and i have oppressed you or a people your connected with, or people who are directly connected with the revelation. Or i live or lived in the area, and my behaviour is so bad, people and you know God will not accept it. And you get an revelation about that i'm going to hell. If you werent oppressed by me, or people connected with you, or you would not know me, you would ask yourself what the hell has this revelation have to do with me?So for the information to have any value, the person must be known in your present or the past, and it must be clear it refers to a certain person you're familiar with or people who will directly hear the revelation. Because it clearly shows the person rejects the truth, otherwise he wouldn't be condemned. So the revelation must be meant for the people who want him to be condemned as they are oppressed by him, or his behaviour is so bad, they know God will not accept that. So this sura is directly connected with the time of the revelation.
Because a person knowing a person with the same name 200 years after the revelation, can only guess a bit if it is meant for him. Even if the person is bad. He would wonder, could it be true? And the condemnation would loose its power.
So my logic tells me, that the threat only has real power if it is directed to a person that is connected with the time of the revelation. As the prophet would know a Abulahab, dead or alive, he would know the person's behaviour is not good. Even if the prophet would not have known him immediately, he would wait to the person comes in his life. Because when he meets the person, he would know it is meant for that person. Then the surah can give strenght, as it clearly meant to strenghten the faithfull. It is meant for the persons that knew an Abu lahab, and to rest their minds that Abulahab will not get away with his behaviour.
A person living a time after the prophet would always wonder if the prophet not already have met an Abulahab, and would be carefull to link this with a person in his own time that carries the same name.
And ABSorry but i'm answerring 2 guys at the same time it seems. And i'm at work, so i can't write answers all the time now.
-
how you take other stories told in the Quran then?, the many many stories that was about people that you never met and you can't verify their existance in the past
-
if this sura is included in the Quran, and the Quran is for all humanity then why it can't be a message for us regarding what happned in the past exactly as the Quran told us about many other stories in the past
-
if this sura is just a mere history record which I agree, isn't enough that it was told to us by Allah that we pay much attention to it even if it is a mere story from the past?
-
why not it can't be an indirect prophecy that Abu lahab (The uncle of the prophet) and his wife will die kafirs?
1.No, because as i told, most people told in the Quran, can be traced from multiple sources, this is not the case with Muhammed, so i'm just more carefull.
2.This is true, but like i said, i'm just more carefull with these sources. But a lot of people told in the Quran can be traced through archeology and mulltiple outside sources. This is again not the casew ith Muhammed. So i'm more carefull.
3.You think you can learn something from it? A behaviour not already mentioned in the Quran? The only value that it has, was spiritual support and comfort for the people who knew Abu lahab and knew now he wouldn't get away with his behaviour. That for sure, he wouldn't be forgiven. So it shows what God tells through the whole Quran, that he supports and strenghtens the faithfull.
4.It is a prophecy, but does it matter if it is the uncle or anybody else? clearly it meant to strenghten the people who are connected with him, and want him not to get away with his behaviour.
Peace
-
-
Peace,
Peace
Dear Arnold, I will read you long comment later one,,,for the moment I will like to give answer of your ONE QUESTION
For the moment I only give references from Bukhari.
Refer to Bukhari
volume 2, book 23, Hadith 477
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 293
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 325
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 475
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 495
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 496
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 497
volume 6, book 61, Hadith 506ENOUGH ???
VE
-
Peace be upon you,
(1111-5) Father of the flame's hand was condemned/destroyed/lost, condemned/destroyed/lost indeed. His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him. He will roast/suffer/burn (in) a flaming fire, and his wife who carries the logs. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
SYMBOLISM, not literal. We are not given staories like Santa Claus and Easter Bunny to believe in like little kids, unable to verify the truth of it. These stories describe character traits that we can see in real life human beings throughout time, including today.
"Father" is a male character to imply this person is one who GIVES something, as oppossed to the woman who recieves. The story is one of a person who loved the wordly life "...His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him..." but the worldy life is INFERIOR to spirituality. The internal world is SUPERIOR to the external world. So this is a person who speaks out against spirituality in favor of wordly material gains, thereby bringing the FLAME upon him of Hell, meaning his wrong thougts and actions lead him to misery inside while he/she thinks they are going to success.
The Male is the thoughts the female is the visual image which work together to lead us down our paths in life. This is not about literal people, but the psychology of all people who have these traits. At this time I cannot comprehend the rope around her neck.
This way we can VERIFY this story by observing life, not blind belief that can never be verified therfroe ALWAYS having an element of doubt. When there is an element of doubt we cant muster the strength to live truth, we need a solid foundation to build upon, not a sandy cliff.
-
Peace,
volume 2, book 23, Hadith 477
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 293
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 325
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 475
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 495
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 496
volume 6, book 60, Hadith 497
volume 6, book 61, Hadith 506So just for refuting Muhammed in that way, you believe he is going to perish in hell forever. Funny that you give 8 hadith, that all tell the same thing. That a man is cursed for rejecting it, while in the Quran, people are given chances till death to repent. That is why i don't believe these hadith. It contradicts the Quran's rule that every person gets a chance till death to repent. This is your proof? Your 'enough'?
Do you think Muhammed needed a revelation to say that? Do you think a man is cursed from the beginning, like that? This is not the way of the Quran, as it gives a direct curse on abu lahab, while everybody can repent till the end. And don't say God already knew he was going to reject, because then you contradict the story of moses and the pharoah. Of course God knows and knew, but for us, free will is still present, as we don't compass God's knowledge. But that is different.Believe what you want VE, but these hearsay reports are not to be trusted. And like i said already. GIVE ME ONE HADITH THAT I NEED THAT SHOWS ABU LAHAB'S BEHAVIOUR IS NOT ALREADY DESCRIBED IN SOME WAY IN THE QURAN. You can't. You can't proof i need hadith to understand this story. I know somebody is cursed, and just like idolfree shows, if we translate it, we get a metaphorical meaning that fits perfectly. Translate the word or not, still i don't need any hadith to appreciate the surah more or understand it better.
Muhammed called everybody to safa, and he asked, do any of you believe me when i say there is an army coming; yes of course the people reply. Then you also believe me when i say i have a revelation from God?
Abu lahab said; is that what you called us for? may your hands perish! And then suddenly God will react like a 14 year old kid No you perish! You really think this gives the surah more strenght? I believe it even limits it strength, as the most powerfull book on earth is used for a curse fight with a person who doesn't believe in the book anyway. You think God would have wasted His Revelation on that? You think Muhammed couldn't have said it himself? Is this the same prophet that allowed trash to be thrown over his head for a couple of years without any word? Is this the same Muhammed that forgave everybody in Mecca, even his biggest enemies? After 14 years of oppression, he says not a harsh word against his biggest enemies, not the prophet nor God. But the first time somebody rejected him, God says; perish!Yeah right!, This contradicts everything, this contradicts all other hadiths were the prophet is forgiving and never harsh, even against his biggest enemies, that has done as much as Abulahab and his wife. This doesn't fit and contradicts. That is why i don't swallow it. The stories doesn't fit together. You can get any Muhammed you want from the hadith, a murderer, raper, a saint, an angel, a dictator, the nicest man on earth, a child who needs God to learn him to curse a man. It all contradicts each other to much. That is why i don't even trust the stories that are so-called 'proven' by the Quran. Any body could have made these stories using the words mentioned in the Quran. And there were a lot of story tellers traveling, they were normal. They were the news and movieteller, hollywood, the 6 o'clock news and the historychannel in one. You can see this happened anywhere, with every religion. People making up stories so they could answer peoples questions, as the people expected them to know.
The story contradicts with the Quran
16127You shall resort to patience - and your patience is attainable only with GOD's help. Do not grieve over them, and do not be annoyed by their schemes.4243But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.
Is this the same God, that calls for patience, but curses a person from the start? NO.....
Even Pharoah who has been worse then the Abu lahab from the hadith, is not even cursed, even he gets a chance...2043-44"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;
"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."People have till their death to understand
1090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
(It was said to him) "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!Peace
-
Peace be upon you Elke,
because she (the vehicle) is lead by these thoughts ?
Good observation, could be. I need to give it more thought. But it is true that verbal thought brings forth the visual images, which are the MATRICES/MOULDS of future behavior.
-
Peace,
Abu lahab said; is that what you called us for? may your hands perish! And then suddenly God will react like a 14 year old kid No you perish! You really think this gives the surah more strenght? I believe it even limits it strength, as the most powerfull book on earth is used for a curse fight with a person who doesn't believe in the book anyway
PeaceThen why dont you give the reason what did AbuLahab do that he is being cursed in his life??? You are yourself contradicting with Quran.
You asked me only one Ahadith about AbuLahab telling his behaviour. so I gave you LIMITED references from JUST Bukhari.
Upon this you start to throw your fire on me. Now to your above comment of God reacting like 14 year old, I give a reference from just two Quranic verses, And after reading that if you have even a tiny amount of Shame then at least do Taubah in your heart.
005.064
005.064 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.Al-Qur'an, 005.064 (Al-Maeda )
And now about your comments that just by using rude behaviour AbuLahab is being cursed. AbuLahab is nothing,,,here even Mo'mins can also go to hell by just talking loudly in front of prophet(SAW).
049.002
049.002 O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.Al-Qur'an, 049.002 (Al-Hujraat )
To understand the long enmity of AbuLahad, please refer to following video
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7975120610766259883&q=genre%3Aanimation+is%3Afree+duration%3Along&pl=true
And if you still try distract my real question in this topic then PEACE
028.055
028.055 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant."Al-Qur'an, 028.055 (Al-Qasas )
VirtualEye.
-
Peace,
First of all, i asked you to give me one hadith that talks about his behaviour that must be condemned, that is not already given in the Quran. You said you wanted to learn from the hadith what is the thing that would put a person to hell. I asked; is there something in the story of abu lahab, that has not already been given in the Quran with other stories of people or behaviours? And i don't mean something that directly refers to him, i mean a kind of behaviour that has not already been given in the Quran? NO, there is not. There is nothing to learn from these hadith. And there is nothing to learn why he was cursed as all examples of wrong people are given fully detailed. His hadith story doesn't add our knowledge. Also i read something other then what the tradition gives, as i believe it refers more that the surah was revealed after their deaths, as being God's way to always let the road to forgiveness be open till death. Plus if you translate the words abu lahab, it gives a beautifull metaphoric meaning. So either way, the hadith story contradicts the Quran.
And throwing fire on you? Did i ever call you names or mocked you? No, never, you are the one with arnold swarzeniger and such. Don't be hypocrite please...
005.064 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
These talk about people who are God's chosen ones. And their talk is about God Himself. The words of Abu lahab are directed to the prophet. So this verse has nothing to do with it, this is an ignorant example. As God says to Muhammed
16127You shall resort to patience - and your patience is attainable only with GOD's help. Do not grieve over them, and do not be annoyed by their schemes.
4243But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.
049.002 O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.
Read againO ye who believe! This command was directly given to the people who believed Muhammed. So again, abu lahab doesn't fall under that group. Again a futile example. As he rejected Muhammed and his message according to the hadith, so my example of the pharoah applies, and shows that the hadith story contradicts with the Quranics teachings, and even with other hadith.
Still you have not proven one thing that the story is usefull to know, as was your purpose. It only proves the contrary as it contradicts with the prophet's other behaviour towards people who were even worse then abu lahab in the hadith, and this contradicts Quran.
-
Peace be upon you,
(1111-5) Father of the flame's hand was condemned/destroyed/lost, condemned/destroyed/lost indeed. His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him. He will roast/suffer/burn (in) a flaming fire, and his wife who carries the logs. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
SYMBOLISM, not literal. We are not given staories like Santa Claus and Easter Bunny to believe in like little kids, unable to verify the truth of it. These stories describe character traits that we can see in real life human beings throughout time, including today.
"Father" is a male character to imply this person is one who GIVES something, as oppossed to the woman who recieves. The story is one of a person who loved the wordly life "...His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him..." but the worldy life is INFERIOR to spirituality. The internal world is SUPERIOR to the external world. So this is a person who speaks out against spirituality in favor of wordly material gains, thereby bringing the FLAME upon him of Hell, meaning his wrong thougts and actions lead him to misery inside while he/she thinks they are going to success.
The Male is the thoughts the female is the visual image which work together to lead us down our paths in life. This is not about literal people, but the psychology of all people who have these traits. At this time I cannot comprehend the rope around her neck.
This way we can VERIFY this story by observing life, not blind belief that can never be verified therfroe ALWAYS having an element of doubt. When there is an element of doubt we cant muster the strength to live truth, we need a solid foundation to build upon, not a sandy cliff.
Peace Kyle
Nice interpretation. I'd like to add a few things.
If taken a bit more literally, we see the mention of Fire/Hell/Blaze, and that the female is the carrier of logs. She will be carrying these logs as fuel for the aforementioned Fire/Hell/Blaze. Taken in this vein, I think the verse shows how people's actions reinforce each other's. The male was one who, like Joe mentioned, let his wealth/property dictate his life; and what did the female do? Did she urge him against this mindset of taking his wealth as an ilah? No, to the contrary, she supported and reinforced his actions, she "carried the logs." She made his actions seem pleasing to him by approving and by taking part. To use a common English idiom, she added fuel to the fire. Also, see 4125 as a cross-reference
"We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers."
As for the rope around her neck, the context of the surah, as we have discussed, seems intimately tied to hands/wealth/property. We see another verse in the Qur'an that not only relates to hands/wealth/property but also ties that concept to the neck. The verse is 1729
"You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry."
The surrounding verses make it clear that the verse is referring to miserly actions and greed. Perhaps the "rope of thorns" that goes around this person's neck, the neck of a person who took property/wealth as an ilah, represents the symbolic punishment the soul will receive. Just as the Qur'an mentions one's hand tied around the neck, thus cutting off circulation and keeping one's soul stagnant, the rope of thorns tied to the neck is its eternal counterpart. The rope of thorns will cut off circulation to the soul in the Hereafter, thereby preventing once again the soul-growth of the person for eternity. One may call this soul-stagnation "Hell."
Peace.
-
He is the One Who revealed to you this scripture. Of its verses, some are decisive, constituting the essence of the scripture; others are allegorical. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts dwell on the allegorical verses, to create confusion and misrepresentation. No one knows its interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge
Do any of you know for a fact that you fit the description "those well-grounded in knowledge", or should we rather stick to what is clear as daylight? All im seing in this thread is making confusion over a subject that matters how much to my guidence and salvation?
peace
-
Peace
WHAT WRONG DID HE DO, WHY BOTH OF THEM, AND WHO BOTH OF THEM???
I said it was his trust in his wealth as a pass that crushed him. Both of them because each is guilty of something. The one does not drag down the other in their guilt .
These people are archetypes.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? I DONT UNDERSTAND.
It is alfurqan/the criterion, it distinguishes between what is right and what is wrong according to the Lord. It seperates, and distinguishes this for us. Here it is shown what is not to be upheld. God is clear as to what brings people close to him .
WE MUST KNOW "WHO" WAS THIS PERSON AND WHAT DID HE DO. NO GUESSINGS PLEASE.
We do know that he was an opposer who believed in lies. No guessing there. It is clear from the reading what the fault is in such an archetype. There have been many such beings as abu lahab .
THAT IS ALREADY BEING TOLD. BUT WHY HIS COMPANION WILL BE DRAGGED? WHAT DID SHE DO?
It is said hammalat alhatab which mean that his companion is the bearer of slander. Her deeds tie her down and his bring him to naught that is good.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO TRUST RICHES. THEN WHY SPECIALLY LAHAB MENTIONED IN QURAN SO ANGRILY AND HIS WIFE ALSO CURSED SO ANGRILY???
Exactly, many are. This particular character is mentioned because he and his companion are archetypes for all others. History clearly repeats itself, and experience is the key to the reading.
Joe
-
Peace,
Magi, because of discussing we become well-grounded in knowledge as we can see what's right or wrong in certain arguments. How else do you think we can reach the status you refer to? By sitting back and say nothing? That is not my style......I believe if you study all the different angles of how we can approach verses, then we become well-grounded in knowledge, but indeed must we always be ready to accept knew understandings.
Caveman, beautifull tasreef......
-
Salam
For those who promote that Abu Lahab is a nothing but a symbol of a rich man, then i have to ask why the wife of that rich man must be condemned as well?
Some suggested that the wives will be dragged along with their husbands, but hold on a sec
-
Did the the sura suggested that the wife will be dragged with that bad man and therefore she must be condemned as well?, NEVER EVER
-
The Quran gave us a few examples of many wives
a) The wife of Pharaoh, a good wife to a bad man
b) The wife of Lut, a bad wife to a good man
c) The wife of Noah, a bad wife to a good manThose wives were not dragged with their husbands, especially the wife of the vefry rich Pharaoh, so were exactly that law of a wife been dragged with her husband?
I don't really understand why people cause this confusion
Salam
Walaikum Salaam
The wife of Abu Lahab .. a bad wife of a bad man.
Both of them were famous opponents and arch enemies of the Prophet (pbuh), even though to the best of my knowledge, Abu Lahab was the Prophet's uncle.
Peace ..
-
-
Salam
For those who promote that Abu Lahab is a nothing but a symbol of a rich man, then i have to ask why the wife of that rich man must be condemned as well?
Some suggested that the wives will be dragged along with their husbands, but hold on a sec
-
Did the the sura suggested that the wife will be dragged with that bad man and therefore she must be condemned as well?, NEVER EVER
-
The Quran gave us a few examples of many wives
a) The wife of Pharaoh, a good wife to a bad man
b) The wife of Lut, a bad wife to a good man
c) The wife of Noah, a bad wife to a good manThose wives were not dragged with their husbands, especially the wife of the vefry rich Pharaoh, so were exactly that law of a wife been dragged with her husband?
I don't really understand why people cause this confusion
Salam
Walaikum Salaam
The wife of Abu Lahab .. a bad wife of a bad man.
Both of them were famous opponents and arch enemies of the Prophet (pbuh), even though to the best of my knowledge, Abu Lahab was the Prophet's uncle.
Peace ..
Thank you sister, I was going to add it in my comment but thought that i can't because this is the disputed one, but I totally agree with you, in fact the Quran also gave us a general example for a good wife to a good man
Yes, Abu Lahab was the prophet Uncle
Peace
-
-
peace Ahmed,
the reason Abu Lahab's wife will be condemned to hell is because she helps him do whatever he does. She is guilty too. Read the surah again, and see if the wife is really innocent.
Mate
are they real or not, this is the question, after that we can discuss your evidence and mine
i say they were real
how about you?
Peace
-
I wonder, what difference does it make if they were real or not. Do we benefit from knowing that?
-
peace Ahmed,
i don't really care whether they were real or not. Going by the Quranic lesson of verification, i would need clear proof of their existence to believe they were real. But it really doesn't matter. here's why
If we take the surah to be just a story, then we might need to prove them real. If we take it to be a story with a purpose, a lesson or moral for us, then it doesn't matter.
Because that person in the story, whether real or not, is used as an example. That example, and what we learn from it, is what's important. Not whether the person really lived or not. -
Peace
I find the benefit in the position these characters (or archetypes) exemplify. The story illustrates such wisdom as these 6/165; 9/34-35; 34/11; 40/29, 79-81; 63/9-10; 92/17-18
I feel if you take them as historical figures the teaching herein is not lost. I think it may be ignored if too much attention is held on the historical proof or biography of such people. Their mention in this context is meant to convey to the reader a particular idea or set of ideas.
Joe