Please Help Me.
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Peace be upon you Elke,
because she (the vehicle) is lead by these thoughts ?
Good observation, could be. I need to give it more thought. But it is true that verbal thought brings forth the visual images, which are the MATRICES/MOULDS of future behavior.
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Peace,
Abu lahab said; is that what you called us for? may your hands perish! And then suddenly God will react like a 14 year old kid No you perish! You really think this gives the surah more strenght? I believe it even limits it strength, as the most powerfull book on earth is used for a curse fight with a person who doesn't believe in the book anyway
PeaceThen why dont you give the reason what did AbuLahab do that he is being cursed in his life??? You are yourself contradicting with Quran.
You asked me only one Ahadith about AbuLahab telling his behaviour. so I gave you LIMITED references from JUST Bukhari.
Upon this you start to throw your fire on me. Now to your above comment of God reacting like 14 year old, I give a reference from just two Quranic verses, And after reading that if you have even a tiny amount of Shame then at least do Taubah in your heart.
005.064
005.064 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.Al-Qur'an, 005.064 (Al-Maeda )
And now about your comments that just by using rude behaviour AbuLahab is being cursed. AbuLahab is nothing,,,here even Mo'mins can also go to hell by just talking loudly in front of prophet(SAW).
049.002
049.002 O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.Al-Qur'an, 049.002 (Al-Hujraat )
To understand the long enmity of AbuLahad, please refer to following video
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7975120610766259883&q=genre%3Aanimation+is%3Afree+duration%3Along&pl=true
And if you still try distract my real question in this topic then PEACE
028.055
028.055 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant."Al-Qur'an, 028.055 (Al-Qasas )
VirtualEye.
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Peace,
First of all, i asked you to give me one hadith that talks about his behaviour that must be condemned, that is not already given in the Quran. You said you wanted to learn from the hadith what is the thing that would put a person to hell. I asked; is there something in the story of abu lahab, that has not already been given in the Quran with other stories of people or behaviours? And i don't mean something that directly refers to him, i mean a kind of behaviour that has not already been given in the Quran? NO, there is not. There is nothing to learn from these hadith. And there is nothing to learn why he was cursed as all examples of wrong people are given fully detailed. His hadith story doesn't add our knowledge. Also i read something other then what the tradition gives, as i believe it refers more that the surah was revealed after their deaths, as being God's way to always let the road to forgiveness be open till death. Plus if you translate the words abu lahab, it gives a beautifull metaphoric meaning. So either way, the hadith story contradicts the Quran.
And throwing fire on you? Did i ever call you names or mocked you? No, never, you are the one with arnold swarzeniger and such. Don't be hypocrite please...
005.064 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
These talk about people who are God's chosen ones. And their talk is about God Himself. The words of Abu lahab are directed to the prophet. So this verse has nothing to do with it, this is an ignorant example. As God says to Muhammed
16127You shall resort to patience - and your patience is attainable only with GOD's help. Do not grieve over them, and do not be annoyed by their schemes.
4243But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs.
049.002 O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not.
Read againO ye who believe! This command was directly given to the people who believed Muhammed. So again, abu lahab doesn't fall under that group. Again a futile example. As he rejected Muhammed and his message according to the hadith, so my example of the pharoah applies, and shows that the hadith story contradicts with the Quranics teachings, and even with other hadith.
Still you have not proven one thing that the story is usefull to know, as was your purpose. It only proves the contrary as it contradicts with the prophet's other behaviour towards people who were even worse then abu lahab in the hadith, and this contradicts Quran.
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Peace be upon you,
(1111-5) Father of the flame's hand was condemned/destroyed/lost, condemned/destroyed/lost indeed. His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him. He will roast/suffer/burn (in) a flaming fire, and his wife who carries the logs. On her neck will be a rope of thorns.
SYMBOLISM, not literal. We are not given staories like Santa Claus and Easter Bunny to believe in like little kids, unable to verify the truth of it. These stories describe character traits that we can see in real life human beings throughout time, including today.
"Father" is a male character to imply this person is one who GIVES something, as oppossed to the woman who recieves. The story is one of a person who loved the wordly life "...His property/possession/wealth and what he gained/acquired did not enrich/suffice from him..." but the worldy life is INFERIOR to spirituality. The internal world is SUPERIOR to the external world. So this is a person who speaks out against spirituality in favor of wordly material gains, thereby bringing the FLAME upon him of Hell, meaning his wrong thougts and actions lead him to misery inside while he/she thinks they are going to success.
The Male is the thoughts the female is the visual image which work together to lead us down our paths in life. This is not about literal people, but the psychology of all people who have these traits. At this time I cannot comprehend the rope around her neck.
This way we can VERIFY this story by observing life, not blind belief that can never be verified therfroe ALWAYS having an element of doubt. When there is an element of doubt we cant muster the strength to live truth, we need a solid foundation to build upon, not a sandy cliff.
Peace Kyle
Nice interpretation. I'd like to add a few things.
If taken a bit more literally, we see the mention of Fire/Hell/Blaze, and that the female is the carrier of logs. She will be carrying these logs as fuel for the aforementioned Fire/Hell/Blaze. Taken in this vein, I think the verse shows how people's actions reinforce each other's. The male was one who, like Joe mentioned, let his wealth/property dictate his life; and what did the female do? Did she urge him against this mindset of taking his wealth as an ilah? No, to the contrary, she supported and reinforced his actions, she "carried the logs." She made his actions seem pleasing to him by approving and by taking part. To use a common English idiom, she added fuel to the fire. Also, see 4125 as a cross-reference
"We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers."
As for the rope around her neck, the context of the surah, as we have discussed, seems intimately tied to hands/wealth/property. We see another verse in the Qur'an that not only relates to hands/wealth/property but also ties that concept to the neck. The verse is 1729
"You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry."
The surrounding verses make it clear that the verse is referring to miserly actions and greed. Perhaps the "rope of thorns" that goes around this person's neck, the neck of a person who took property/wealth as an ilah, represents the symbolic punishment the soul will receive. Just as the Qur'an mentions one's hand tied around the neck, thus cutting off circulation and keeping one's soul stagnant, the rope of thorns tied to the neck is its eternal counterpart. The rope of thorns will cut off circulation to the soul in the Hereafter, thereby preventing once again the soul-growth of the person for eternity. One may call this soul-stagnation "Hell."
Peace.
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He is the One Who revealed to you this scripture. Of its verses, some are decisive, constituting the essence of the scripture; others are allegorical. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts dwell on the allegorical verses, to create confusion and misrepresentation. No one knows its interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge
Do any of you know for a fact that you fit the description "those well-grounded in knowledge", or should we rather stick to what is clear as daylight? All im seing in this thread is making confusion over a subject that matters how much to my guidence and salvation?
peace
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Peace
WHAT WRONG DID HE DO, WHY BOTH OF THEM, AND WHO BOTH OF THEM???
I said it was his trust in his wealth as a pass that crushed him. Both of them because each is guilty of something. The one does not drag down the other in their guilt .
These people are archetypes.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? I DONT UNDERSTAND.
It is alfurqan/the criterion, it distinguishes between what is right and what is wrong according to the Lord. It seperates, and distinguishes this for us. Here it is shown what is not to be upheld. God is clear as to what brings people close to him .
WE MUST KNOW "WHO" WAS THIS PERSON AND WHAT DID HE DO. NO GUESSINGS PLEASE.
We do know that he was an opposer who believed in lies. No guessing there. It is clear from the reading what the fault is in such an archetype. There have been many such beings as abu lahab .
THAT IS ALREADY BEING TOLD. BUT WHY HIS COMPANION WILL BE DRAGGED? WHAT DID SHE DO?
It is said hammalat alhatab which mean that his companion is the bearer of slander. Her deeds tie her down and his bring him to naught that is good.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO TRUST RICHES. THEN WHY SPECIALLY LAHAB MENTIONED IN QURAN SO ANGRILY AND HIS WIFE ALSO CURSED SO ANGRILY???
Exactly, many are. This particular character is mentioned because he and his companion are archetypes for all others. History clearly repeats itself, and experience is the key to the reading.
Joe
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Peace,
Magi, because of discussing we become well-grounded in knowledge as we can see what's right or wrong in certain arguments. How else do you think we can reach the status you refer to? By sitting back and say nothing? That is not my style......I believe if you study all the different angles of how we can approach verses, then we become well-grounded in knowledge, but indeed must we always be ready to accept knew understandings.
Caveman, beautifull tasreef......
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Salam
For those who promote that Abu Lahab is a nothing but a symbol of a rich man, then i have to ask why the wife of that rich man must be condemned as well?
Some suggested that the wives will be dragged along with their husbands, but hold on a sec
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Did the the sura suggested that the wife will be dragged with that bad man and therefore she must be condemned as well?, NEVER EVER
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The Quran gave us a few examples of many wives
a) The wife of Pharaoh, a good wife to a bad man
b) The wife of Lut, a bad wife to a good man
c) The wife of Noah, a bad wife to a good manThose wives were not dragged with their husbands, especially the wife of the vefry rich Pharaoh, so were exactly that law of a wife been dragged with her husband?
I don't really understand why people cause this confusion
Salam
Walaikum Salaam
The wife of Abu Lahab .. a bad wife of a bad man.
Both of them were famous opponents and arch enemies of the Prophet (pbuh), even though to the best of my knowledge, Abu Lahab was the Prophet's uncle.
Peace ..
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Salam
For those who promote that Abu Lahab is a nothing but a symbol of a rich man, then i have to ask why the wife of that rich man must be condemned as well?
Some suggested that the wives will be dragged along with their husbands, but hold on a sec
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Did the the sura suggested that the wife will be dragged with that bad man and therefore she must be condemned as well?, NEVER EVER
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The Quran gave us a few examples of many wives
a) The wife of Pharaoh, a good wife to a bad man
b) The wife of Lut, a bad wife to a good man
c) The wife of Noah, a bad wife to a good manThose wives were not dragged with their husbands, especially the wife of the vefry rich Pharaoh, so were exactly that law of a wife been dragged with her husband?
I don't really understand why people cause this confusion
Salam
Walaikum Salaam
The wife of Abu Lahab .. a bad wife of a bad man.
Both of them were famous opponents and arch enemies of the Prophet (pbuh), even though to the best of my knowledge, Abu Lahab was the Prophet's uncle.
Peace ..
Thank you sister, I was going to add it in my comment but thought that i can't because this is the disputed one, but I totally agree with you, in fact the Quran also gave us a general example for a good wife to a good man
Yes, Abu Lahab was the prophet Uncle
Peace
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peace Ahmed,
the reason Abu Lahab's wife will be condemned to hell is because she helps him do whatever he does. She is guilty too. Read the surah again, and see if the wife is really innocent.
Mate
are they real or not, this is the question, after that we can discuss your evidence and mine
i say they were real
how about you?
Peace
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I wonder, what difference does it make if they were real or not. Do we benefit from knowing that?
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peace Ahmed,
i don't really care whether they were real or not. Going by the Quranic lesson of verification, i would need clear proof of their existence to believe they were real. But it really doesn't matter. here's why
If we take the surah to be just a story, then we might need to prove them real. If we take it to be a story with a purpose, a lesson or moral for us, then it doesn't matter.
Because that person in the story, whether real or not, is used as an example. That example, and what we learn from it, is what's important. Not whether the person really lived or not. -
Peace
I find the benefit in the position these characters (or archetypes) exemplify. The story illustrates such wisdom as these 6/165; 9/34-35; 34/11; 40/29, 79-81; 63/9-10; 92/17-18
I feel if you take them as historical figures the teaching herein is not lost. I think it may be ignored if too much attention is held on the historical proof or biography of such people. Their mention in this context is meant to convey to the reader a particular idea or set of ideas.
Joe
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After careful thinking. I feel the story of Abu Lahab is true and it is what it is. A factual account of The Prophets uncle - however it is not necessary to disgress into so much, as for it's time it was the story of abu lahab and his account, albeit it is short. The beauty of the Quran is that it is for all time, therefore after a period of time, it still serves it's purpose as an account of Abu Lahab but not necessarily in a historical context, it becomes allegorical. So from an allegorical perspective it becomes just as relevant.
A good example is the story of Yusuf in surah yusuf and moses and his travels, yes they're factual but what purpose did they serve as in the time of the prophet,because there wasn't any historical relevance for it in the Prophets time?It served as an allegorical device. So, I think stories in the Quran are temporal devices that are relevant throughout the ages.
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peace all,
"abu lahab" literally means "father (of) flame" in Arabic. This is solid.
Theoretically, it could mean a proper name but equally it may not be.
As brother Joe said, I believe it is an archetype.
Furthermore, the God discourages use of nicnames (cant remember the ayat/sign off-hand), thus it is highly unlikely He uses a nicname ("abu lahab" as this was not the real name of the so-called prophet Muhammad's uncle.
This has been discussed before, please use the search function.
Also, the I believe the Arabic word used for rope means an entwined rope, which may be symbolic of the relationship between the fuel and the fire, as has been mentioned by others in this thread.
Wakas
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Both of them were famous opponents and arch enemies of the Prophet (pbuh), even though to the best of my knowledge, Abu Lahab was the Prophet's uncle.
Peace ..
Which knowledge? are you Quran only believer? where is it written in quran that AbLahab was enemy of prophet(SAW)? Whe is it written that he had direct relation with prophet(SAW)? and where is it written that he was Prophet's Uncle?
VE
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This is a very good TOOL, that if you dont understand the real context of the Surah/verse directly condemning and cursing a person,,, then just refer to the rest of Quran as generally telling what is wrong and write. Very interesting. )
All the subjective stories in Quran have been mentioned in detail as
Who was a subjected person.
What did he do
what he did not do
For what reason he was rewarded or cursed.Then how come this person AbuLahab is directly being cursed fromt the start of surah?
Anyway I think my arguments here are of no use. You people can do anything and give any rubbish logics to get rid of any historical and/or Ahadith knowledge. You people have changed the meaning of each and every verse of Quran just to justify that we dont need any additional knowledge. I assume if your motive is true then you must not have even learned any language from your parents and Allah would have revealed all the TRUTH on you directly,,,,because as you people think that Allah guides us directly if we want. I assume then Allah would have revealed the Holy text on each of you, because you would only be independant of the secondary knowledge if Allah had directly tought the language of Quran to you without any secondary source like your secondary knowledge, language and historical knowhow.
I hereby quit this discussion considering that I am not enough to answer a dozen people just alone myself.
VE
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Peace,
Quote
All the subjective stories in Quran have been mentioned in detail as
Who was a subjected person.
What did he do
what he did not do
For what reason he was rewarded or cursed.So you agree with us, that all persons in the Quran mentioned, also why they're examples is mentioned fully detailed?
Quote
Then how come this person AbuLahab is directly being cursed fromt the start of surah?Maybe then to answer this question, is the fact that it is not a person from history, but a metaphor....
This logical and based on the examples of other verses throughout the Quran. So we change meanings? Maybe the tradition has done that? Ever thought of that?......
Plus, again you show, that you don't use your arguments on yourself. A couple of topics ago, you complained every time, you waisted so much time on writing an answer to somebody, and then the person would, as you say; just say that doesn't apply to me, as i don't follow hadith. You condemned this behaviour. Now every time you do it yourself. Pushing it away, with the exact same arguments as the persons you condemned of waisting your time on. Ignoring questions in responses to you, giving superficial answers or start calling names, OR WRITING QUICK REMARKS IN BIG LETTERS TO SHOW HOW GOOD YOU'RE IN BEING A PATIENT MUSLIM. It seems we waist our time on you...
Peace
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Peace be upon you Caveman Doctor,
If taken a bit more literally, we see the mention of Fire/Hell/Blaze, and that the female is the carrier of logs. She will be carrying these logs as fuel for the aforementioned Fire/Hell/Blaze.<<<
Yes, I agree. I forgot to comment on the logs which are an obvious symbolism for fueling the fire. And again, on the psychological level, it is the verbal thoughts that bring for the VISION(imagination) that fuels the emotions. All one need to do is sit back and pay attention to what goes on in thier minds in the course of a day. In the oldest recorded religious philosophy, the imagination was called "Het Heru", and it is stated that the Imagination is that which stimulates RA. RA, which was incorrectly translated by Westerners as "sun God" really refers to the Life Force (Chi/kundalini/biokenetic energy/ etc.) So indeed this message is a confirmation of what came before it.
Taken in this vein, I think the verse shows how people's actions reinforce each other's. The male was one who, like Joe mentioned, let his wealth/property dictate his life; and what did the female do? Did she urge him against this mindset of taking his wealth as an ilah? No, to the contrary, she supported and reinforced his actions, she "carried the logs." She made his actions seem pleasing to him by approving and by taking part. To use a common English idiom, she added fuel to the fire.
I agree that this is what happens in life, but I dont follow the verse that literal because it would make the woman the antagonist like the biblical story of Eve "forcing" Adam to eat the apple. I disagree with blaming the woman literally, and thats what the story would mean if the God uses a literal woman for the example. Same way I dont take ALL MALE messengers as example that only men deliver God's Truth to mankind. A woman has a mouth and wisdom as well. Certianly there are men who fuel women and men who fuel other men.
Also, see 4125 as a cross-reference
"We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers."Yes, humans have the compainions of the hidden thoughts and images which direct the emotions.
As for the rope around her neck, the context of the surah, as we have discussed, seems intimately tied to hands/wealth/property. We see another verse in the Qur'an that not only relates to hands/wealth/property but also ties that concept to the neck. The verse is 1729
"You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry."
The surrounding verses make it clear that the verse is referring to miserly actions and greed. Perhaps the "rope of thorns" that goes around this person's neck, the neck of a person who took property/wealth as an ilah, represents the symbolic punishment the soul will receive. Just as the Qur'an mentions one's hand tied around the neck, thus cutting off circulation and keeping one's soul stagnant, the rope of thorns tied to the neck is its eternal counterpart. The rope of thorns will cut off circulation to the soul in the Hereafter, thereby preventing once again the soul-growth of the person for eternity. One may call this soul-stagnation "Hell."
Good observation in regards to verse 1729!
