Is fluency is spoken & written Arabic necessary ...
-
Peace
KGB
I didn?t say that that qur'?n was recodified. I said that Arab language was recodified.
Please see the difference!
The big big difference!And what do you know about my sincerety towards western governments? Please read some of my previous posts on FM before putting me in an imagined group!
Ahmed
I don?t hate Arabs.
And I will never understand why you always come up with such fast judgements about others without even knowing them.
You know that I won?t discuss on a basis like that anymore.
I will leave any discussion based on prerequisites like that!!I didn?t even talk about the "Arab people" but clearly said "especially sunni Arabs", and you come up with judgements like that.
And my notes were based on very clear experiences that personally happened to me and not just on stories I heard.Question Do you think that when people think that the word zakaat means giving a specific amount of money this is not a manipulated and recodified meaning?
Regards,
Leyla
-
Peace
Ahmed
I don?t hate Arabs.
And I will never understand why you always come up with such fast judgements about others without even knowing them.
You know that I won?t discuss on a basis like that anymore.
I will leave any discussion based on prerequisites like that!!I didn?t even talk about the "Arab people" but clearly said "especially sunni Arabs", and you come up with judgements like that.
And my notes were based on very clear experiences that personally happened to me and not just on stories I heard.Peace sister
well, i never thought that you are one of them, i'm not sure how you are accusing me of something that I never said about you?
Question Do you think that when people think that the word zakaat means giving a specific amount of money this is not a manipulated and recodified meaning?
Regards,
Leyla
Well, Zakat ia an action to "Nuzaki ourselves", and most likely is by helping anyone in need, all in all this help will cost something, money, effort or whatever it cost
Now there is a compulsory Zakat in Islam, that Zakat was explained by the traditionalists as giving a percentage of your money, this money will be collected for the poor and needy hence it is exactly the same action, i.e. bearing a cost to help someone and this way we will be "Nuzaki ourselves"
Salam
-
Peace Ahmed
SOOOORRRRYYYYYY ..... BIG EXCUSE!
I first did a superficial read and thought the post was from you, then I saw that it was from KGB and put his name in my post but unfortunately didn?t realize that I had to edit my post to delete your name from it.
The whole post was an answer to KGB!
Sorry again.
Now, THAT was a bad assumption and quick judgement done by me!
I am just at the moment really disturbed by the lack of politeness by some in this forum and became quick to judge myself.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.Regards,
Leyla
-
ABNow there is a compulsory Zakat in Islam, that Zakat was explained by the traditionalists as giving a percentage of your money, this money will be collected for the poor and needy hence it is exactly the same action, i.e. bearing a cost to help someone and this way we will be "Nuzaki ourselves"
The word is 'sadaqah' and 'infaaq'. 'Zakaat' isn't used in the sense the traditionalists describe.
-
Peace Ahmed
SOOOORRRRYYYYYY ..... BIG EXCUSE!
I first did a superficial read and thought the post was from you, then I saw that it was from KGB and put his name in my post but unfortunately didn?t realize that I had to edit my post to delete your name from it.
The whole post was an answer to KGB!
Sorry again.
Now, THAT was a bad assumption and quick judgement done by me!
I am just at the moment really disturbed by the lack of politeness by some in this forum and became quick to judge myself.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.Regards,
Leyla
no worries sister
take care
-
ABNow there is a compulsory Zakat in Islam, that Zakat was explained by the traditionalists as giving a percentage of your money, this money will be collected for the poor and needy hence it is exactly the same action, i.e. bearing a cost to help someone and this way we will be "Nuzaki ourselves"
The word is 'sadaqah' and 'infaaq'. 'Zakaat' isn't used in the sense the traditionalists describe.
As I said Zakat covers anything that will cost ya, hence it covers the Sadaqa, in a way if you do on many occasion voluteerly then it is Sadaqa, if it is the compulsory one, then it is Zakat, I don't see Sadaqa and Zakat differ much, they both under the same category which is helping someone in need, and that help will cost something (even time can be cosidered a cost)
Salam
-
-
KGB, I've had this discussion with Leyla before so I hope you don't mind me interjecting my own answer before she responds
To me, as the passage of time went on post-quranic revelation, the words found in al-quraan began to acquire other meanings. Meanings are then falsely validated through hadith and the authority of the ulema. However, the beautiful thing about the Book of Allah is that it actually tells you how to shed these fake meanings and arrive at a real meaning.
-
Peace
KGB
Mquran has summed up very well what I would have said.
I couldn?t put it in better words.
My question regarding zakaat was an example of exactly this!Regarding me and Arabs, I should maybe tell you that it was at first hand Middle Eastern culture which made me become interested in Islam in my early youth and then made me investigate further, that I?ve visited Arab countries, that I even have distant Arab inlaws (palestinian sunnis) in my family and that I love Arab cuisine (just had koshari yesterday). I definitely do not hate Arabs.
Still the development of Arab sunni culture and the arab/muslim synthesis was one of the biggest traps for al-isl?m, unfortunately, mainly through the process that mquran just described.
And still I have personally heard the already cited racist statements by sunni Arabs and have seen some of those people tread me in very rude ways.There is more in this world than just black an white, brother.
Regarding your other words, I would again suggest to you to read other posts by me before making quick assumptions about my motives and inclinations. Thank you.
Yes, the qur'?n in Arabic language as we have it today is the perfect and selfconsistent word of Allah.
Again, I repeat for you
Never did I say on this thread or elsewhere that the qur'?n was recodified.Regards,
Leyla
-
Peace everybody,
I just wanted to make the comment that this is a very good thread that you got going on here. Please keep it up. I think you guys are addressing what could possibly be the meat and morsel of the qur'aanic situation and I must say I am what truly happy with the input I have read so far.
Thank You TanveerMd for the enlightening reply you gave.
Dear LEYLA and KGB, this is a Very important thread. Is there anyway you two can put aside your differences and continue with the topic? I would like to see this particular thread continue because rather you know it or not, you all may be on to something and the unfolding of this thread and your conclusions could provide the solution to a very big problem.
Please continue on guys........
Salaam,
Damon. -
Is fluency is spoken & written Arabic necessary to acquire intellectual recognition in the Islamic world ??
I would think that to be able to speak & write Arabic in the Islamic world (note the capital "I" would lead to intellectual recognition more easily than one who did not.
However, if your question relates to whether having knowledge of Arabic leads to a better understanding of 'al quran' or not, its not so clear. I think if you want to learn as much as you possibly can about 'al quran' you would have to learn Arabic eventually. However, a superb understanding of 'al quran' can be acheived without knowing Arabic.
From my experience of debating with people who know Arabic and those who do not, knowing Arabic means very little, and in some cases, as mq said, knowing Arabic (as its use dnow) can actually stifle your understanding.
-
Peace all,
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
According to the above verse, the different languages are considered one of the signs of Allah. No language is superior to the other. However al-qur'aan was revealed in the arabic language and to really understand it so that we can learn and follow its true meaning, we should try to learn enough arabic necessary to comprehend the words of Allah. Let us consider 413
413 A scripture whose verses are detailed, an arabic qur'aan for a people who know.
In my understanding, "people who know" or "people having knowledge" are the people who have enough knowledge to understand the message of the arabic qur'aan/reading, which implies that we should try to learn the arabic language enough to understand its message. How can someone have a good understanding of the arabic qur'aan without learning arabic ?
If we just rely on other's translations, then we are trusting the understanding of those other people, which could be wrong or flawed, as anyone can make a mistake. We should learn enough basic arabic so we can try to learn the meaning of the qur'aanic verses on our own, in order to form our own understanding of what Allah is saying. Of course we should have discussions with fellow learned humans also, and consider the various translations, then follow the best meaning.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom Allah has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
We should not follow anything without knowledge, and to have proper knowledge and understanding of the words of Allah, we should make an effort to learn the classical arabic language.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Most of the countries of the world encourage learning of a second language. I had to learn english as a second language for education and career purposes. People are learning spanish language in USA and people all over the world are learning english language. Why can't we also learn arabic language to understand Allah's revelations for our guidance, which is more important than learning other languages for education or career purposes ?
I agree that at least basic knowledge of Arabic is a huge advantage in studying the Qur'aan.
The point I had in mind and that's the reason I put this post is .. not knowing Arabic does not 'disqualify' a person from seeking the love of Allah and trying to understand Him by reading the Qur'aan. Guidance comes only from Allah. He gives it to whomsoever He considers worth it. And it goes without saying that Allah does not select people for guidance based on their proficiency in Arabic or any other language nor on the basis of any other characteristics relating to ethnicity. Therefore, when I was recently told by someone (NOT in this forum) that I am not eligible to discuss the Qur'aan simply because Arabic is not my first language, I was both upset and angry. And the person who said it only exposed his own weakness as to how superficial some humans can be.
Similarly, love of Allah in a person's heart and a desire to grasp His guidance does not come through linguistic skills nor by acquiring diplomas from Islamic universities. It's simply the quality of one's heart that makes Allah decide whether or not they are worth His guidance .. and so, He either gives it to them or deprives them of it. I repeat, knowledge of basic Arabic can be very helpful for understanding the Qur'aan. But one can also manage well enough without that skill, as long as they have the desire and determination. Most importantly, there's no hard & fast rule that a brilliant scholar of Arabic will never violate the Qur'aan in his actions or a person with no knowledge of Arabic is bound to violate it.
However, I agree with Wakas that it's hard to get intellectual recognition in today's Islamic world without spoken & written knowledge of Arabic. He and mq also have a very valid point in stating that knowledge of Arabic can sometimes "stifle your understanding." This is likely to happen particularly in the case of those who have learnt Arabic as a second language.
Peace ..
-
to acquire intellectual recognition in the Islamic world ??
I ask this question because it was raised very recently by a couple of brothers in another forum. It started when I posted one of my favourite articles by Br. Hafeez Kazi tracking the history of Sahih al-Bukhari. Of course these two persons in the other forum didn't agree with the article which didn't surprise me. Also, despite their disagreement they couldn't come up with a single refutation concerning any of the contents of this article, which didn't surprise me either. I guess at such times people tend to take matters out of the actual context for the sole purpose of speakign up. To cut a long story short, I was told without any mincing of words that "non-Arab Muslims for whom Arabic is not a first language cannot be considered qualified enough to translate, discuss or interpret the Qur'aan" nor analyse or translate the Hadeeth.
I've heard of such arguments before when non-Arab Muslims have often complained of 'discreet racism' within the Ummah even in matters of Faith. For example, a non-Arab brother once mentioned to me that his Arab neighbor said Arabs would be given preference over all humanity on the Last Day.
The more I get to know our people, the more confused I get. I don't know what's happening to our Ummah. Makes one so despondent.
Any comments ... ?
Salaam
Can you e-mail me a link to the article "Br. Hafeez Kazi tracking the history of Sahih al-Bukhari" that you have mentioned? It sounds very interesting.
Al Khidr
-
ZainabHowever, I agree with Wakas that it's hard to get intellectual recognition in today's Islamic world without spoken & written knowledge of Arabic. He and mq also have a very valid point in stating that knowledge of Arabic can sometimes "stifle your understanding." This is likely to happen particularly in the case of those who have learnt Arabic as a second language.
As a second language yes, but if one learns it through a non-quranic means. In my experience, its best to just relax and allow al-quraan to fill the etymological gaps. I used to be quite reliant on Parwez's 'lughatul quraan' but now I feel even that can be a suppressor.
-
In my experience, its best to just relax and allow al-quraan to fill the etymological gaps.
That's a very correct approach ..
I used to be quite reliant on Parwez's 'lughatul quraan' but now I feel even that can be a suppressor.
Hmmm .. this is exactly what I had in mind about being 'stifled.' Learning Arabic as a second language and then seeking help from the dicitonary to understand the vocabulary of the Qur'aan can narrow one's perception regarding the social or historical context of the passage we are reading at the time. Thus, Arabic as a second language with the lughat constantly for assistance makes 'little knowledge a dangerous thing.' The same can also be said about the mind boggling translations I keep reading by many an unrecognized translators.
Salaam Alaikum and peace ..
-
Peace be with you Zainab,
Because of the inevitable problems that come with reading Translations of the qur'aan, I highly recommend that you learn the Arabic language so you can read it the qur'aan in it's original text. It is much less complicated than many people would make it out to be.
Having said that, I do have a suggestion as to HOW to approach your Arabic studying for maximum benefit in the least amount of time and hassle. I need to ask you first what level you are at currently in Arabic? Do you know how to Read Arabic? Meaning, do you know how to read the Arabic script? If so, you are already well on your way. If not, no biggie because the arabic script and alphabet is quite easy and you can learn it in a week.
I'll be waiting to read your reply.
Salaam,
Damon.P.S. I would love to see this thread under a sticky because the relevance of this subject is very, very, very important yet highly underestimated.
-
Peace all,
Arabic as second language plus a modern Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan. The correct approach would be to learn CLASSICAL Arabic language + use reputable CLASSICAL Arabic dictionaries (more than one) + study the qur'aanic context of the revelations + determine the meaning of a word in al-qur'aan according to what al-qur'aan defines as its meaning + study all occurrences of the same words or themes in al-qur'aan + compare at least 10 different translations + use our mind, reason, and knowledge + discuss with people of knowledge + follow the best meaning.
The social and historical context of a passage determined from the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors can be dangerously misleading and is unreliable and should not be used to determine the meanings of qur'aanic words/verses. The correct context of the qur'aanic passages/verses can be determined from al-qur'aan only. Majority of the translators rely heavily on the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad for translation of al-qur'aan and also rely on the post qur'aanic modern Arabic meanings of the qur'aanic words and their personal desires and egos, thereby completely distorting the original message and causing utter chaos and confusion. That is why no single translator can be blindly/completely/fully trusted to determine the true meaning of Allah's words. Allah repeatedly asks us to use our reason, mind, and knowledge to determine and follow His message.
The necessity of learning the classical Arabic language and using classical Arabic dictionaries to determine the corrrect meaning of al-qur'aan cannot be overemphasized, so we can determine the meaning of Allah's words as was understood by the Arabic people when al-qur'aan was being revealed. The alternative meanings acquired by those words many years after al-qur'aan was revealed cannot be read into the qur'aanic words. Examples are "al-masjid al-aqsa", "al-masjid al-haram", "shahr", "ramadhan", "salat", "zakat", "qiblah", "hajj al-bayt", "makkah", "ummi", "islam" etc.
There was NO physical Masjid Al-Aqsa at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan so "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that physical building, as it was constructed in the 8th century during the Ummayad dynasty (709-715). Similarly even according to the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors, there was NO physical Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. The current Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca was constructed many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan so "al-masjid al-haram" mentioned in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that physical building. Also according to archeological records, there is ZERO evidence of existence of the city of Mecca in the qur'aanic time, so "makkah" in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that city. "Shahr" meant "full moon" in the qur'aanic times, and acquired the meaning of "month" many years after revelation of al-qur'aan.
An analogy in English would be the word "gay" which meant "happy" originally and acquired the meaning "homosexual" around 1920 (ref Wiki Encyclopedia). Hence if we stumble upon an English book from the 16th century mentioning the word "gay" it could not have meant "homosexual".
Brother Damon, I agree with what you said providing we strive to learn the CLASSICAL Arabic language used in al-qur'aan to determine the original meanings of qur'aanic words/verses. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the inevitable problems that come with reading modern translations of al-qur'aan, and no single modern English translator of al-qur'aan can be fully trusted.
I would advise everyone to please refer to the recent post by brother Ayman at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4790.msg86735#msg86735
-
DamonP.S. I would love to see this thread under a sticky because the relevance of this subject is very, very, very important yet highly underestimated.
The reason for this is because while some people claim to be quranic, the reality is that they have embraced modernism or post-modernism but have yet to admit this to themselves. I respect people like Danish who have the guts to admit that they disbelieve, at least we know where they stand.
-
Tanveer Arabic as second language plus a modern Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan. The correct approach would be to learn CLASSICAL Arabic language + use reputable CLASSICAL Arabic dictionaries (more than one) + study the qur'aanic context of the revelations + determine the meaning of a word in al-qur'aan according to what al-qur'aan defines as its meaning + study all occurrences of the same words or themes in al-qur'aan + compare at least 10 different translations + use our mind, reason, and knowledge + discuss with people of knowledge + follow the best meaning.
I disagree to 'dangerous' because the vocabulary of al-quraan doesn't include 'modern' words like telephone etc. Al-quraan's vocabulary was subverted by a religious subversion. Deen, taqwa, islam, salaat have all a quranically-explained meaning yet this meaning has been changed by likes the hadith and sunnah. Most translations are unacceptable to me as they use these hadithic meanings.
The necessity of learning the classical Arabic language and using classical Arabic dictionaries to determine the corrrect meaning of al-qur'aan cannot be overemphasized, so we can determine the meaning of Allah's words as was understood by the Arabic people when al-qur'aan was being revealed. The alternative meanings acquired by those words many years after al-qur'aan was revealed cannot be read into the qur'aanic words. Examples are "al-masjid al-aqsa", "al-masjid al-haram", "shahr", "ramadhan", "salat", "zakat", "qiblah", "hajj al-bayt", "makkah", "ummi", "islam" etc.
Classical Arabic helped only half of the way, the rest depended upon the Quran's internal structure.
