Does al quran promote a religion? Not to me.
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WakasWell, I do think independant thought converging is not a bad sign.
Yes, agreed.
Are you saying I should be using "deen" rather than "obligation" when speaking in English and communicating with others who speak in English? Perhaps, I would use "deen" with someone I knew was on the same wavelength as me and would take it to mean what I mean.
Well, the word 'deen' is a sound like the word 'religion' and 'way of life'. Al-quraan gives that word a set of processes which cam happen in reality (for example, takhallas-ad-deen is the 'exclusivising' of ad-deen to be solely for Allah). When we consign the word 'deen' to a certain word, we might find that the full complement of processes can no longer fit our translation. Hence, I prefer to use the word ad-deen. I do however, concede that in the interim, you need to bridge the gap and that's where other words come in.
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wakas wrote
They were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.huh! so u do find them common with ur understanding!
wakas wrote
I was trying to point out that it implies religion is to do with a supernatural power, and supernatural means not existing in nature. Well, does God exist in nature? Tough question, but I like the answer of Abraham, who through observing nature came to the realisation of God. This tells me that God has left signs/ayatin in our world, and for me, that's just as good as Him being there.supernatural means something beyond science and laws of nature....god is beyond science isnt it? god is supernatural! quran does talk about god! quran does talk about "religion" according to the provided definition! -)
wakas wrote
I know. Will twice daily suffice?depends....or will it?
wakas wrote
I disagree. If one has washed those areas shortly before establishing the bond, then one wouldn't need to wash them again, or at least, thats my opinion.how shortly before? -)
wakas wrote
Hmm, how about circuiting the "Kabba" seven times anti-clockwise? If one can show how this act is explainable/based in reality, then please do so.dunno about the 7-times anti-clockwise circuiting thing but moving about it observing it, why not? if the bayt has significance and god says it has....then why not? would u not observe a monument properly? then would u shy away from observing the bayt? (ofcourse it can very well be debated whether it is physical or not...but assumin it is)! but in all fairness i am definitely looking at the word tawaf to see if there are alternatives, though as of now i will stick with what i said!
wakas wrote
If it contains acts that are not based in reality, then yes, I would consider those parts religious.dunno what reality means to u...but it does talk about god, just like quran supernatural religious! -S
how about the wisdom part do u agree it has wisdom, some of which is general to all, and rest which is not?
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god is beyond science isnt it?
science is studying/observing natural phenomena seeking the truth. Please remember 4153, it is the same thing!
If God is the truth, science is a perfectly acceptable avenue to utilise to realise God, therefore how can God be beyond science?how shortly before?
because thats what i thought you meant. i couldn't leave it wide open, otherwise it could be as long as you wanted, which wouldn't make sense in terms of being clean.
yes, i consider parts of the bible have wisdom, some of which can be found in other books, some might not be found elsewhere.
so you went from 7 circuits anti-clockwise to... just observation. can i conclude you cannot find this act based in reality?
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wakas wrote
science is studying/observing natural phenomena seeking the truth. Please remember 4153, it is the same thing!
If God is the truth, science is a perfectly acceptable avenue to utilise to realise God, therefore how can God be beyond science?its not me...its the definitions which u gave which say that! u cannot say words then walk back on them! -)
but i havent heard of an study or observation by 'scientists' which has found god to be true! ofcourse, if u mean observation and reasoning rather than personally verifying (like i wont believe in god unless i see it), than yes there are signs for who have conviction! but those who do not have conviction, will never see these signs nor believe...they will always want 'concrete' proof of god! -)
wakas wrote
because thats what i thought you meant. i couldn't leave it wide open, otherwise it
could be as long as you wanted, which wouldn't make sense in terms of being clean.can u quanitify "shortly before"? so simply make sense in terms of being clean!
wakas wrote
yes, i consider parts of the bible have wisdom, some of which can be found in other books, some might not be found elsewhere.i was askin about quran! -S
wakas wrote
so you went from 7 circuits anti-clockwise to... just observation. can i conclude you cannot find this act based in reality?i went from 7 anti-clockwise circuits to...? could u elaborate that?
yes i do not find anything to promote goin around it 7 times...but to go about it observin it once...yes...or do u consider the bayt of god not worthy of being observed?
do v conclude according to ur definition of "religion" and "supernatural", as we have seen throughout this post, u do believe that quran promotes religion? -)
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its not me...its the definitions which u gave which say that! u cannot say words then walk back on them!
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.
but i havent heard of an study or observation by 'scientists' which has found god to be true! ofcourse, if u mean observation and reasoning rather than personally verifying (like i wont believe in god unless i see it), than yes there are signs for who have conviction! but those who do not have conviction, will never see these signs nor believe...they will always want 'concrete' proof of god!
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable. Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.
can u quanitify "shortly before"?
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.
i was askin about quran!
same answer.
i went from 7 anti-clockwise circuits to...? could u elaborate that?
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one, you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).
yes i do not find anything to promote goin around it 7 times...but to go about it observin it once...yes...or do u consider the bayt of god not worthy of being observed?
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.
do v conclude according to ur definition of "religion" and "supernatural", as we have seen throughout this post, u do believe that quran promotes religion? -)
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.
A simple question...
Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
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wakas wrote
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.wakas wrote
They were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.u were asked for ur understanding of religion...not net definitions...but yes, i will keep in mind the future possibility of dissociations! -)
wakas wrote
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable.do u understand the difference between 'scientists' and 'no "scientist''? can u point out to the scientific study which has verified quran being from god?
can u point out anybody who verified quran's claim that christ was not killed? or that jesus healed the blind? do u believe by that?
wakas wrote
Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.could u read a little better? maybe thinking will follow! -) i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god...but many people believe in god...v are talking about the text of the quran...do u not know people who cannot digest that god can do miracles? and they reduce everything to allegories? by the way what do u say about christ and muhammad? -)
wakas wrote
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.56 O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles;...
does it say to wash and wipe when u approach the salat......or does it say to wash and wipe only when u think u are unclean and need to?
i am not interested in ur opinions...rather in what the quran says....do u agree by what is there? -)
wakas wrote
same answer.yes, so perhaps u now understand what i meant by wisdom general to all...and wisdom not so general...cool! -)
wakas wrote
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one,ahan!
wakas wrote
you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).do away with ur assumptions....i want my words and not ur assumptions! -)
at what i failed? like u urself point out...i agreed that i do not find agreement with the current custom of the majority...so why do u talk without understanding what the other person says? is it not better to ask for clarifications rather than just make empty claims based on assumptions? -)
wakas wrote
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.huh? i already said to "assume" bayt is a physical place...so whats with the caution? read better! and in anycase i am interested in bayt according to quran and not assumptions! -)
wakas wrote
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.lolz..chill...now i understand some people need to be talked to slowly! -) so here is what has transpired so far
wakas wrote
Of course, we will have to define what "religion" is first.yes....v will need to define 'religion' since u stated that according to u quran does not promote a religion....what according to u is 'religion'?
wakas wrote
religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or materialso according to that which u provided religion pertains to supernatural power!
from the definition u provided of "supernatural" not existing in nature and cannot be explained by natural laws!
according to what u provided religion pertains to that which does not exist in nature or cannot be explained by natural laws!
now observe the nature around u and verify this in nature or explain by natural laws
2247 And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.
325 He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
704 To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
and this
22 7. And because the Hour will come, there is no doubt thereof; and because Allah will raise those who are in the graves.
based on nature and observations is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
wakas wrote
A simple question...Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
first make a stand...a firm stand is that what "science" promotes according to u, or what u have taken off the net! -)
and yes..how do u understand 4153?
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I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".
i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
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Peace
is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .
I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
Joe
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i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
That IS the crux of belief system, a natural "observable" truth. sun
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wakas wrote
I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.do u need to be reminded everytime i want my words, not a yarn of words? -)
how do u "answer" the main points? by taking 6 words out of roughly 30 odd and "answering"? or skipping questions altogether? loz!
still, do u understand the meaning of something being "beyond somebody"? if i say "intelligence is beyond u does that mean u cannot recognize intelligence? yes u can, but its intricacies..its essence, is beyond u...right? -)
why are u trying to channel the discussion where u want to, rather than what v started off with? v are discussing whether the quran has text, a part of which can be termed as super-natural...not whether or not god is deducible, but whether science can explain god the way it can explain h2 + o = h2o!
wakas wrote
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".why dont u read or recollect before u say something? here is what i already stated a few posts earlier
thegod
but can u esatblish the salat with merely clean hands and feet? would u go to school simply washing ur face and hands and wiping ur head and feet? no u would ensure a complete body wash if u have reasons to...so v would expect cleanliness to be a pre-condition before establishing salat!
but unless u take a complete bath wherein u wash the hands and wipe the feet by default, i would reckon u would still need to wash ur face and hands and wipe ur head and feet before salat in accordance with 56! also, 443 is of interest!
and that is exactly what 56 says
56 Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves....
so v can gather this
when u approach salat wash and wipe, and if u be unclean make urself clean!a when u approach salat u are either clean, or u are unclean!
b u are clean, proceed to wash and wipe! go to d!
c u are unclean, then clean urself now u are clean! go to b!
d establish salat!
so according to u only if u think u are unclean, u should wash and wipe, which means if u think u are clean u should not wash and wipe!
according to quran if u are clean, u wash ur hands and faces, and wipe ur head and feet!
and yes, next time do read the quran and what i write carefully, so that v do not have repeats of the above example! -)
wakas wrote
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.i am not talking just about god's signs...why are u shying away from responding to things in context rather than to just that which u think u are confortable with? give me the scientific study which has verified quran's claim that christ was not killed! v are discussing whether the quran has text which can be termed as super-natural...not just whether or not god is deducible! i hope u will not lose the essence of this discussion! -)
can u encompass the god the way god encompasses u? can u comprehend god the way god comprehends u?
wakas wrote
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity?i would not have heard about the theory of relativity 300 years back...so? apart from the numbers, how do u explain the malaaikatu and the ruh? apply ur observational science and explain! or is it a mix of "theory of relativity" and allegories? -)
wakas wrote
And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon.give me the examples from nature where u see resurrection, where somebody has died and decayed or been decimated, and been brought back to life!
wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
u have very often referred to 4153, linking it with observable science do explain the verse! -)
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thenabi wrote
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .read 10100
explain 4153
read 5122
thenabi wrote
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
what according to u is supernatural?
i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
peace! -)
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Peace,
i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
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wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.
For the scientific approach to the resurrection, here is a small intro
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0Peace
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arnoldyasin wrote
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)
as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!
the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?
that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)
peace! -)
