Does al quran promote a religion? Not to me.
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Peace
is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .
I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
Joe
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i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
That IS the crux of belief system, a natural "observable" truth. sun
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wakas wrote
I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.do u need to be reminded everytime i want my words, not a yarn of words? -)
how do u "answer" the main points? by taking 6 words out of roughly 30 odd and "answering"? or skipping questions altogether? loz!
still, do u understand the meaning of something being "beyond somebody"? if i say "intelligence is beyond u does that mean u cannot recognize intelligence? yes u can, but its intricacies..its essence, is beyond u...right? -)
why are u trying to channel the discussion where u want to, rather than what v started off with? v are discussing whether the quran has text, a part of which can be termed as super-natural...not whether or not god is deducible, but whether science can explain god the way it can explain h2 + o = h2o!
wakas wrote
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".why dont u read or recollect before u say something? here is what i already stated a few posts earlier
thegod
but can u esatblish the salat with merely clean hands and feet? would u go to school simply washing ur face and hands and wiping ur head and feet? no u would ensure a complete body wash if u have reasons to...so v would expect cleanliness to be a pre-condition before establishing salat!
but unless u take a complete bath wherein u wash the hands and wipe the feet by default, i would reckon u would still need to wash ur face and hands and wipe ur head and feet before salat in accordance with 56! also, 443 is of interest!
and that is exactly what 56 says
56 Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves....
so v can gather this
when u approach salat wash and wipe, and if u be unclean make urself clean!a when u approach salat u are either clean, or u are unclean!
b u are clean, proceed to wash and wipe! go to d!
c u are unclean, then clean urself now u are clean! go to b!
d establish salat!
so according to u only if u think u are unclean, u should wash and wipe, which means if u think u are clean u should not wash and wipe!
according to quran if u are clean, u wash ur hands and faces, and wipe ur head and feet!
and yes, next time do read the quran and what i write carefully, so that v do not have repeats of the above example! -)
wakas wrote
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.i am not talking just about god's signs...why are u shying away from responding to things in context rather than to just that which u think u are confortable with? give me the scientific study which has verified quran's claim that christ was not killed! v are discussing whether the quran has text which can be termed as super-natural...not just whether or not god is deducible! i hope u will not lose the essence of this discussion! -)
can u encompass the god the way god encompasses u? can u comprehend god the way god comprehends u?
wakas wrote
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity?i would not have heard about the theory of relativity 300 years back...so? apart from the numbers, how do u explain the malaaikatu and the ruh? apply ur observational science and explain! or is it a mix of "theory of relativity" and allegories? -)
wakas wrote
And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon.give me the examples from nature where u see resurrection, where somebody has died and decayed or been decimated, and been brought back to life!
wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
u have very often referred to 4153, linking it with observable science do explain the verse! -)
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thenabi wrote
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .read 10100
explain 4153
read 5122
thenabi wrote
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
what according to u is supernatural?
i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
peace! -)
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Peace,
i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
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wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.
For the scientific approach to the resurrection, here is a small intro
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0Peace
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arnoldyasin wrote
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)
as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!
the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?
that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)
peace! -)
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Peace,
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that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)
as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!
the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)
I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?
I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?
Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.
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notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?
that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)
No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.
I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.
But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.
Peace
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But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.
yes.
People have different definitions of "religion." What one word means to me might mean something else to you.
No matter what we call them, the teachings of the Quran remain the same. -
arnoldyasin wrote
I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?what proof? u only said "probably" this happened..that does not constitute as proof! infact the proof which u quote is found in the ahmadiyyat commentary...another coincidence...yes! -)
like when u said "djinns" mean something different everytime they are used...but does the word "insaan" mean something different everytime the word is used? such arguments are not called proofs from quran...they are merely opinions! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?u didnt explain anything according to quran...that "probably something happened" is not explanation! the old testament says moses was a prophet of god...so if u believe that moses is a prophet are u distorting the quran? or are u saying it under the influence of jews? or because the followers of old testament takes it literally u will interpret it allegorically and say moses is only an allegorical messenger? -)
u cannot call a thing a metaphor just because u want to just like somebody cannot call allah or rasool a metaphor just because they want to...read replies in the context! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.that he could cure the blind was an ayat from his lord which he came with read the verse again! i cannot make the blind see, but let me give an example
let us suppose u are spiritually blind...then what is the ayat with which i come to u? take another spiritually blind person and cure him? when u are urself spiritually blind how will u understand what has happened? will u consider the spiritually blind person to be blind? no infact u would consider him blind after his having been cured!
again let us suppose u are spiritually blind i come to u and there is a blind person so i heal the person and he can see...now whether u are spiritually blind or not u can see the person has regained sight! thats an ayat!
now if u can provide some understanding of the ayat with which he came then do so! -)
also, why do u not believe jesus could make the blind see..literally?...give me reason and not 'because it is a metaphor'..what is it that u limit the occurrence of such a possibility as an impossibility? would u believe it only when u see somebody literally cure the blind? the disbelievers by jesus did not even when they saw him do it! -)
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
what did they call evident magic? but those who disbelieved by his miracles have been in denial since! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.so have u discovered everything in nature? disbelievers say there is no god because they cannot see it do u disbelieve by jesus having been able to literally cured for reason other than that u have not seen it happen nor science has confirmed that for u?...notice the similarity in reasoning?
arnoldyasin wrote
I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.u said god is beyond the natural laws....ask anybody what is that which is beyond natural laws...u will get "supernatural"!
arnoldyasin wrote
But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to
call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.yes to argue just to try to show our understandin as right is time-wastin...but it still helps in the sense that people know what kind of argumenst v put forth! -)
yes..the book is the same...that v follow it is a claim! -)
i guess thats it for some time atleast...perhaps i will check back some other time! -)
peace -)
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kgb wrote
Thank you TG.netime! -)
kgb wrote
This matter is settled now to me that Qur'an does promote religion.yes..if religion is understood as propogating god or supernatural, then quran does do that...god comprehends nature..nature does not comprehend god! -)
anyway...i am leaving! -)
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Hello TG
this is anothet clear cut example of some muslims wasting their time trying to figure out what Islam (with a capital I) means, they also waste their time trying to know if it is the name of the Deen or not, Ironically the Quran gave clear answers to those questions but they like to resport to some flawed dictionries made by some non arabs, very strange man, the ego of those people are way too high
the main point is, Deen does not mean system, Deen in Arabic means that you are in debt and you have to pay back, for example if I borrow money from a bank then I owe the bank a Deen
now we are in debts to our creator and we have to pay back, and the way to pay back is detailed in Judaism Christianity and Islam thus all three are called Deen
don't waste your time bro with those who think they got it all yet their arguments are so weak and unfounded not to mention their ignorance with the Arabic language
cheers
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Peace,
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what proof? u only said "probably" this happened..that does not constitute as proof! infact the proof which u quote is found in the ahmadiyyat commentary...another coincidence...yes! -)
This i found through cross-refernence, and more people agree on this. Not just the ahmediya's. This is baseless deviating from the subject as you haven't answered it. I have the Quranic uses of words as proof! What do you have? Answer it instead of deviating. the ahmedya argument is only an ignorant attempt to make me look like an ahmedya. More people follow these conclusions, not only ahmedyas. But of course those people you don't mention...Plus, your views coincide with shia's, sunni's, salifa's,wahabi's,sufi's,sikhs and even al-qauda! Is that a coincedence or what! Your so-called refernce to the ahmedya's is baseless, as you neglect countless others of scholars who agree with me on this point. The only reason to mention this, is that you want to use it as slander. So ignorant........
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like when u said "djinns" mean something different everytime they are used...but does the word "insaan" mean something different everytime the word is used? such arguments are not called proofs from quran...they are merely opinions! -)
Djinns mean not seen things/beings. It is the same as saying walking beings. A lot of things can be walking beings, not only humans. Humans is a title with a specific direction to a specific species. Djinn only refer to ONE aspect of the thing or being, it being not seen or not directly seen. Just like walking being only gives ONE aspect that can denote several beings. This is direct from the Quran and arabic meaning. Not opinion. Your jinn is based on opinion, not on proof. But this is not the subject. Again you deviade, by thinking this makes my argument weaker, it only shows you use deviation as your tactic. because also Dr.Shabbir says this, also Parwez, also Ahmed Ali, and more. And all of them are enemies of ahmedyas. So why don't you say i also coincide with these people? Because you think the ahmedya argument can be used as slander it seems. Don't take me wrong, but it looks like so...
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u didnt explain anything according to quran...that "probably something happened" is not explanation! the old testament says moses was a prophet of god...so if u believe that moses is a prophet are u distorting the quran? or are u saying it under the influence of jews? or because the followers of old testament takes it literally u will interpret it allegorically and say moses is only an allegorical messenger? -)
The Quranic use of prophet and the way Moses is depicted coincide with the Thorah, so this example is baseless. As the Quranic use for Jesus's deeds, doesn't not coincide with the Gospels. As God uses it as metaphors, when you use cross-reference, while the Gospels that are contained in the Bible, are noted not to be trusted. Also older Gospels only refer to Jesus's words, not his deeds. The Gospel of Thomas is older then all the Gospels of the Bible, and doesn't contain ONE deed of Jesus, only his words. So you have to know what you are talking about. When you look at the Bible for information or cross-reference with the Quran, you must know the history behind the manuscript you're using. It is known, that the writers of those Gospels in the Bible, were not eye-witnesses and followed the dogma of divinity of Jesus, where it is not surprising they tried to represent him as a god on earth. You have to know what info you're using. And also your use fo proving your points are weak, as you take extreme opposites as examples, that have no coincidence with this. I also never doubted Jesus's prophethood, why?because the Quran is clear about the role of prophets.
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that he could cure the blind was an ayat from his lord which he came with read the verse again! i cannot make the blind see, but let me give an example
let us suppose u are spiritually blind...then what is the ayat with which i come to u? take another spiritually blind person and cure him? when u are urself spiritually blind how will u understand what has happened? will u consider the spiritually blind person to be blind? no infact u would consider him blind after his having been cured!
again let us suppose u are spiritually blind i come to u and there is a blind person so i heal the person and he can see...now whether u are spiritually blind or not u can see the person has regained sight! thats an ayat!
now if u can provide some understanding of the ayat with which he came then do so! -)
Yes, i can, but i doubt you will see it....
- When they meet the faithful they say "We believe;" but when alone with the devils (their fellows), they say "We are really with you; we were joking."
- But God will turn the joke against them and allow them to sink deeper into evil and wander perplexed in their wickedness.
- They are indeed those who bartered away good guidance for error and gained nothing from the deal, nor found the right way.
- They are like a man who kindles a fire, and when its glow has illumined the air God takes away their light leaving them in the dark where they will not be able to see.
- They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;
Ok, here you can see clearly, that deniers are called they ARE deaf, dumb and BLIND. Are these metaphors? YES. Let's say such a person does stops denying and starts believing, is he then deaf dumb and BLIND still? No, he would HEAR and SEE again the truth.
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Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself. -
So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.
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You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,
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Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.
And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran
- If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.
Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.
Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions'or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this
- And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."
As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny, plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws
3112. Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.This is my understanding using the Quran and the meanings of the words used. You can disagree, but what are your evidences? Also, you will not find ahmedya's agree with this interpretation, a pity you can't use that here he?
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so have u discovered everything in nature? disbelievers say there is no god because they cannot see it do u disbelieve by jesus having been able to literally cured for reason other than that u have not seen it happen nor science has confirmed that for u?...notice the similarity in reasoning?
No i based on the Quran. God says He doesn't changes His laws, which also apply to nature's laws then. Plus cross-reference shows the explanation for these uses of words. And did i ever pointed out i knew everything in nature? No. Baseless argument again. And the argument of comparisons with the disbeleivers is ignorant. As i never claimed not believing in the literal curings based i never saw them. I based it on the Quran and the laws given by God in the Quran, that says His laws don't change, this includes nature's laws. And cross-reference gives a perfect use of what is meant with these verses.
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u said god is beyond the natural laws....ask anybody what is that which is beyond natural laws...u will get "supernatural"!
No, it is not. Supernatural is something that cannot be proven by science. God is proven by science. Big difference...
Peace
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Peace
read 10100
explain 4153
read 5122
I'm not sure why you are telling me to read these. You give no reasons and I can only guess that you mean to say I am wrong based on the context of these ayatin.
Ayat 10/100 extends back to a doubt in man discussed in earlier ayatin where men are given leave to be rejectors and those who will take hold of God's rope shall do so. This in no way disturbs my reasoning that you should heed God's advice and look for the signs all about you in order to grasp the theoretical constructs in the reading.
Ayat 41/53 shows me that in order to competently grasp the theoretical constructs of the reading one should see and experience these contructs. I was once given great advice by another regarding my problem with being too theoretical. It was told "The eyes ponder and the air sweeps!".
Ayat 51/22 seems to be pretty clear about al/sama being that from which people derive rizqu/provision wamatoo'adoona/that you are promised. It is as observable as communication systems for our communities .
what according to u is supernatural?
Superman, but then again...
i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)
Sometimes I do. There are people who see the light after being in the dark. When your flesh and bones rot you will be resurrected like the earth after its death, and that is easy to God.
Joe
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Peace brother Wakas, all,
Thank you for starting this interesting discussion.
religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
The above definition is not accurate. Religion pertains to humans not to imaginary/supernatural power. Nature is reality so supernatural inherently means "not real". I think that when we look in the great reading for clues to what religion is we can get a more relevant definition.
If one thinks of being a Jew or a Nazarene as belonging to a religion then the closest Arabic word to "religion" in the great reading is "millat" (for example 2135). We don't hear in the great reading Judaism or Christianity described as "deen". The word "deen" as you correctly indicate means obligation/debt.
So a passage such as 319 is telling us that our obligation to The God is the ACTION of submission/compliance. It is not the meaningless label that people put on us when we are born into a certain religion. All obligations other than the one in 319 are obligations to people, to priests, to Mullahs, to Rabbis, etc. They are not obligations to The God.
One thing we learn about the difference between "millat" and "deen" is that while "deen" is universally related to The God, "millat" is only related to people. Thus, we hear that everything in the heavens and the earth "asalam"/submit/comply to The God. So even without human beings, the "deen"/obligation of "islam"/submission/compliance would exist. On the other hand, all religions are manmade and they wouldn't exist without people. Even monotheism is manmade. Thus, it is described as "millat Ibrahim" never as "millat Allah". Since "millat"/religion is invented by and dependent on humans, then any correct definition must take that into account.
We are told in the great reading that the "millat"/religion of Ibrahim is monotheism and he was not from those who setup partners. This is it. This is the only "millat"/religion that we should be OK with. Notice again that the definition of the "millat"/religion of Ibrahim is human-dependent. Other creatures in the heavens and the earth do not setup partners with The God. This is only a human act resulting from humans letting the human fantasy ("jinn" have power over them.
So if I was to modify the above definition that you gave with a more accurate definition, it would be
A set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to humans.
In other words, more simply and clearly, the definition would be
Human attitudes, beliefs, and practices.
If we are to define "millat"/religion of Ibrahim as a subset of the above general definition, it would be
Human attitudes, beliefs and practices of not setting up partners with The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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arnoldyasin wrote
This i found through cross-refernence, and more people agree on this. Not just the ahmediya's. This is baseless deviating from the subject as you haven't answered it. I have the Quranic uses of words as proof! What do you have? Answer it instead of deviating. the ahmedya argument is only an ignorant attempt to make me look like an ahmedya. More people follow these conclusions, not only ahmedyas. But of course those people you don't mention...Plus, your views coincide with shia's, sunni's, salifa's,wahabi's,sufi's,sikhs and even al-qauda! Is that a coincedence or what! Your so-called refernce to the ahmedya's is baseless, as you neglect countless others of scholars who agree with me on this point. The only reason to mention this, is that you want to use it as slander. So ignorant........do u recognise this
arnoldyasin wrote
It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences.so wonder what u talking about! -S
also, the last time around...regarding djinns and solomon's armies...u pointed out it was only a coincidence! so this time around i myself pointed it out that this again is a coindidence, to save u the trouble! -)
the first reading that comes across is the first impression and the first reading is literal, so to start off with the literal reading and see if it makes sense is just common sense..but like they say..common sense aint so common! -)
here is an example
i say "hey there's that dude who claims to be from god, and that he makes the stones talk and the paralysed stand!"...and u are like.."wow...really? did u see/hear stones talking and the paralysed getting up?"....and i say "naah! it was just an allegory....i meant he can make very reserved people talk freely and he gives the money to the financially disabled so they can stand on their own feet! -S..yes..pathetic!arnoldyasin wrote
Djinns mean not seen things/beings. It is the same as saying walking beings. A lot of things can be walking beings, not only humans. Humans is a title with a specific direction to a specific species. Djinn only refer to ONE aspect of the thing or being, it being not seen or not directly seen. Just like walking being only gives ONE aspect that can denote several beings. This is direct from the Quran and arabic meaning. Not opinion. Your jinn is based on opinion, not on proof. But this is not the subject. Again you deviade, by thinking this makes my argument weaker, it only shows you use deviation as your tactic. because also Dr.Shabbir says this, also Parwez, also Ahmed Ali, and more. And all of them are enemies of ahmedyas. So why don't you say i also coincide with these people? Because you think the ahmedya argument can be used as slander it seems. Don't take me wrong, but it looks like so..
.i will wait for ur article to be posted! -) infact...i remember there was somebody who posted that djinns are fantasies...but i dont remember who it was...but when ur article is out, i will see them together! -) or maybe since ur djinns are hidden things/beings and his djinns are fantasies...i will simply search that article out and pit ur articles against each other...cool! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
The Quranic use of prophet and the way Moses is depicted coincide with the Thorah, so this example is baseless.
As the Quranic use for Jesus's deeds, doesn't not coincide with the Gospels. As God uses it as metaphors, when you use cross-reference, while the Gospels that are contained in the Bible, are noted not to be trusted.
Also older Gospels only refer to Jesus's words, not his deeds. The Gospel of Thomas is older then all the Gospels of the Bible, and doesn't contain ONE deed of Jesus, only his words. So you have to know what you are talking about. When you look at the Bible for information or cross-reference with the Quran, you must know the history behind the manuscript you're using. It is known, that the writers of those Gospels in the Bible, were not eye-witnesses and followed the dogma of divinity of Jesus, where it is not surprising they tried to represent him as a god on earth. You have to know what info you're using. And also your use fo proving your points are weak, as you take extreme opposites as examples, that have no coincidence with this. I also never doubted Jesus's prophethood, why?because the Quran is clear about the role of prophets.huh? it is u who is claiming that the quranic understanding of miracles does not coincide with the gospel's use...to just say so without proving is it is futility! -) as for gospel cannot be trusted as it contains objectionable stuff goes....so does the old testament contain them! or do u believe the old testament depicting aaron as setting up a calf as god for the people? and of the lustful david coveting the wife of 1 of his armymen? why double standards? -S
what use? that i base it on bible is what u allege...without proof! -S and v know what the quran says about slandering traducers! -)
arnoldyasin wrote
Yes, i can, but i doubt you will see it....- When they meet the faithful they say "We believe;" but when alone with the devils (their fellows), they say "We are really with you; we were joking."
- But God will turn the joke against them and allow them to sink deeper into evil and wander perplexed in their wickedness.
- They are indeed those who bartered away good guidance for error and gained nothing from the deal, nor found the right way.
- They are like a man who kindles a fire, and when its glow has illumined the air God takes away their light leaving them in the dark where they will not be able to see.
- They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;
Ok, here you can see clearly, that deniers are called they ARE deaf, dumb and BLIND. Are these metaphors? YES. Let's say such a person does stops denying and starts believing, is he then deaf dumb and BLIND still? No, he would HEAR and SEE again the truth.
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Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself. -
So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.
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You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,
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Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.
And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran
- If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.
Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.
217 Their example (is) as the one who ignited a fire, so when it lit/illuminated what (is) around/surrounding him, God took/went away with their light, and left them in darknesses, they do not see/understand .
i dont see if u overlooked that this is a "mithaal"..or u conveniently skipped it! in the mithaal, a person lights a fire, and when the fire starts illuminating the place, god takes away their light...leaving them in darkness...where they cannot see! in the mithaal...the application is literal...it cannot be that god took away the physical light and they could not see spiritually... i hope u study verses before posting them...else it will look like an attempt to mislead! -)
- In their hearts/minds (is) sickness/disease, so God increased them sickness/disease, and for them (is a) painful torture because (of) what they were lying/denying/falsifying .
do u understand the difference between the usage of a "mithaal" and what u have used here? here only "sickness" is symbolic for disbelief...such usage is not called allegoric use! i hope u will mind the difference between how u understand and what really is! -)
if i tell u "my eyes are blind to truth"...it is only symbolic for my being unable to see the truth...u cannot interpret it in any other way...because it does not mean i cannot physicllay see things...only i cannot see the truth about them!...v will call this type a!
however, an allegory has more interpretations than 1...like in 217! there v can derive a literal understanding, as well a conveyed 1!
example "in a dark night i brought a light for u, but u threw away the light, now endure in darkness"...here it can very well mean the apparent the night is dark, i bring u a torch but u throw it away, so now u have to stay in darkness!
however, it can also be understood as u being in ignorance of something, and i brought u knowledge regarding it, but u refused the knowledge, so now u will continue in ur ignorance!
see? in such types there are different understandings that can be derived from the statement...and v will call this type b! let's learn the usage of quran...rather than trying to teach the quran according to r learning! -)
27 81 Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (any one) except those who believe in Our communications, so they submit.
by saying that jesus made the spiritually blind to see...u are contradicting this verse...quran states here and at other places, that only who wills to have faith shall be guided, but u are claiming jesus guided them against their will! the quran states that god does not guide except those who wish to be guided...so u are actually contradicting the quran! -)
4144 And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.
that is another problem for ur assumption the verse clearly says it is a healing for those who believe...so spiritually it can heal only those who believe...but u are claiming that jesus healed those who disbelieved, and that contradicts the message of quran that none shall heed it except who wills to! however physical healing does not suffer from this flaw, jesus can physically heal a believer as well as a disbeliever, and it will not violate the message of quran!
the ahmadiyyat commentary acknowledges this problem, that the allegory thing implies jesus healed those who disbelieved, which is against the essence of the message, and though it does not explicitly mention this anomaly in its understanding, it suggests that these were not disbelievers, only they did not have proper knowledge! but the quran, as u demonstrated through ur verses, equates the spiritually blind with the disbelievers (thummun bukmun umyun fahum layarjiun)! infact to work around this problem, the ahmadiyyat commentary says jesus worked no miracles but this clearly betrays its understanding of the quran, as in the quran these (creating a bird out of teen and breathing into it life, reviving the dead, healing blindness and skin abrasions) have not been applied to any other messenger! moses is another messenger who performed miracles...so the quran is in perfect agreement with jesus performing miracles, by god's leave! -)
here are a few verses where the use is plainly literal
20125 He will say "O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?"
spiritually healthy in this life...but spiritually blind in the after? cool! -)
4817 No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war) But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.
metaphors? blind and lame and ill allegorically? -S
219 Or as a rain from the sky, in it (is) darknesses and thunder and lightning, they put their fingers intheir ears from the thunderous noise , fearing the death , and God (is) with the disbelievers surrounding/enveloping .
when u hear thunder...do u put ur allegorical fingers in ur allegorical ears? -)
so v can sum it up as ur argument being based on blind being used as a metaphor, but v also see it has been used literally!
from the verses u provide, and elsewhere, v see that god never gives spiritual wealth to people except when they have faith, so ur assumption that jesus made those who disbelieve believe contradicts the quran itself! if u say he simply preached the message, then this was done by all other messengers, but these has been called as 'ayats' with which jesus came..and are made as a special case for jesus! v do not read such allegories attributed to other prophets, simply their lives have been recalled, so why make an exception to jesus' account and insist on seeing allegories? -)
arnoldyasin wrote
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.agree! i hope u too will remember that...go through the above posts....perhaps next time u will use cross-referencing carefully! -)