Does al quran promote a religion? Not to me.

[KGB]

Active involvement - Good advice. Will try to do.

Will you come back after sometime?

[thegod]

hopefully -)

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

i am talking about the text of quran and not just the bigger picture christ being able to heal the blind...do u believe by that or is it an allegory? u have skipped this before...u may choose to again!

The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.

Quote
wakas wrote
Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.

i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)

Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.

For the scientific approach to the resurrection, here is a small intro
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0

Peace

[thegod]

arnoldyasin wrote
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.

that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)

as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!

the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)

arnoldyasin wrote
Resurrection is proven now by Quantum physics, so yes, it is as normal now as life and death. People are still amazed by it, and even a bit scared. As now it is not possible to shove it away as myth. It will take time people will accept these theories, as they're so groundbreaking. Nobody expected this, but there is no hiding now...Everything can be found inside the laws of nature, only God can't be grasped as God is everything and beyond. Islam is not a religion, but a system, the best way to live on earth. God doesn't need service or worship. But we do need a guideline of truth to help us gain the higher levels, this is what the Quran is for. Religion is about superstition and dogma's. Islam is only truth and about truth, pure reality. So Islam i would call Teachings of Reality and Truth.

notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?

that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)

peace! -)

[KGB]

Thank you TG. This matter is settled now to me that Qur'an does promote religion.

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

Quote

that they are meant metaphorically is ur opinion...and it stays at that! -)

as for the evangelical opinion thing, there is no logic in relating apparent understanding of quran as distortion by others...even god is a concept preached by others...so tomorrow somebody will say god is a metaphor...not that some already dont!

the quran does not say that jesus healed of his own, rather 'bi idhni allah'...so is it god's capability or the text of the quran that u doubt? -)

I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?

I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?

Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.

Quote

notwithstanding the scientific study u are talking about, would u have disbelieved by resurrection had quantum physics not proved it?

that religion is about superstitions is ur understanding...religion is commonly understood as pertaining to god or superntaural, quran deals with god so by that token it does promote religion! like u urself pointed out, god is beyond the laws of nature...so god is supernatural! -) so quran promotes religion by that token as well! -)

No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.

I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.

But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.

Peace

[phoenix1]

But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.

yes.
People have different definitions of "religion." What one word means to me might mean something else to you.
No matter what we call them, the teachings of the Quran remain the same.

[thegod]

arnoldyasin wrote
I used the Quran to prove my point. Where is the proof of your opinion?

what proof? u only said "probably" this happened..that does not constitute as proof! infact the proof which u quote is found in the ahmadiyyat commentary...another coincidence...yes! -)

like when u said "djinns" mean something different everytime they are used...but does the word "insaan" mean something different everytime the word is used? such arguments are not called proofs from quran...they are merely opinions! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
I don't understand your second comment, as it doesn't really apply to my post. I used the Quran itself to explain what was meant with Jesus's story, and this corrects the Bible story, which was written by non-students of Jesus. And saying eventualy people say God is a metaphor is a nonsense argument that doesn't apply with my post. Don't deviade from the subject. And did i ever said God wasn't preached by others?

u didnt explain anything according to quran...that "probably something happened" is not explanation! the old testament says moses was a prophet of god...so if u believe that moses is a prophet are u distorting the quran? or are u saying it under the influence of jews? or because the followers of old testament takes it literally u will interpret it allegorically and say moses is only an allegorical messenger? -)

u cannot call a thing a metaphor just because u want to just like somebody cannot call allah or rasool a metaphor just because they want to...read replies in the context! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
Isn't it also God capability that gave Jesus the power to show people the truth? This argument is again futile. To have the power and the wisdom to get people out of their illusion can only be done with God's permission and support. So for 'my' view you need as much 'bi idhni Allah' as for 'your' view.

that he could cure the blind was an ayat from his lord which he came with read the verse again! i cannot make the blind see, but let me give an example

let us suppose u are spiritually blind...then what is the ayat with which i come to u? take another spiritually blind person and cure him? when u are urself spiritually blind how will u understand what has happened? will u consider the spiritually blind person to be blind? no infact u would consider him blind after his having been cured!

again let us suppose u are spiritually blind i come to u and there is a blind person so i heal the person and he can see...now whether u are spiritually blind or not u can see the person has regained sight! thats an ayat!

now if u can provide some understanding of the ayat with which he came then do so! -)

also, why do u not believe jesus could make the blind see..literally?...give me reason and not 'because it is a metaphor'..what is it that u limit the occurrence of such a possibility as an impossibility? would u believe it only when u see somebody literally cure the blind? the disbelievers by jesus did not even when they saw him do it! -)

5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

what did they call evident magic? but those who disbelieved by his miracles have been in denial since! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
No i would have not doubted it, of course not, but you have to agree this gives a whole new side to it all. But the scientifical proof shows that everything can be discovered inside the laws of nature, and is not depended on promises alone. A promise of God is enough, but at the same time He asks us to look for the proofs in nature itself.

so have u discovered everything in nature? disbelievers say there is no god because they cannot see it do u disbelieve by jesus having been able to literally cured for reason other than that u have not seen it happen nor science has confirmed that for u?...notice the similarity in reasoning?

arnoldyasin wrote
I study Theology, and i understand religions to the core. So it is my proffesional understanding. Religion is based on certain truths, and the rest they don't understand is filled in, plus when certain people can create a better position for themselves, they bring that into religion too. Religion is a man-made system, and only can give to a certain level satisfaction and answers, and can only bring societies to a certain level of development. And that God is un-graspable doesn't make Him 'supernatural', as He is 'proven'. I never needed proof. But the Designer cannot be denied in science. So He is not supernatural, just undescribable. We know He is there, but we cannot 'explain' Him. There we need the Quran for also. The Quran promotes not 'certain'truths, it gives only truths. It gives a system where humankind will not fail in. Give me one 'religion' that does this? The Quran contains nothing that is not to be found in the laws of nature. God doesn't deviade from His laws. He set them up with a reason, and He says He doesn't break them. That He can do what He wants as All-powerfull is a second. It is about what He says in the Quran. All Books that were revealed contained a system based on 100% truths and no gists. All religions on earth are based on a few truths with the rest filled in with guessing and superstition.

u said god is beyond the natural laws....ask anybody what is that which is beyond natural laws...u will get "supernatural"!

arnoldyasin wrote
But this argument is time-waisting, as it matters about following the Quran, not how we 'name' the system that it gives. If you want to
call it religion, that is fine by me. I use a different word for it. Still we follow the same Book.

yes to argue just to try to show our understandin as right is time-wastin...but it still helps in the sense that people know what kind of argumenst v put forth! -)

yes..the book is the same...that v follow it is a claim! -)

i guess thats it for some time atleast...perhaps i will check back some other time! -)

peace -)

[thegod]

kgb wrote
Thank you TG.

netime! -)

kgb wrote
This matter is settled now to me that Qur'an does promote religion.

yes..if religion is understood as propogating god or supernatural, then quran does do that...god comprehends nature..nature does not comprehend god! -)

anyway...i am leaving! -)

[unknownuser]

Hello TG

this is anothet clear cut example of some muslims wasting their time trying to figure out what Islam (with a capital I) means, they also waste their time trying to know if it is the name of the Deen or not, Ironically the Quran gave clear answers to those questions but they like to resport to some flawed dictionries made by some non arabs, very strange man, the ego of those people are way too high

the main point is, Deen does not mean system, Deen in Arabic means that you are in debt and you have to pay back, for example if I borrow money from a bank then I owe the bank a Deen

now we are in debts to our creator and we have to pay back, and the way to pay back is detailed in Judaism Christianity and Islam thus all three are called Deen

don't waste your time bro with those who think they got it all yet their arguments are so weak and unfounded not to mention their ignorance with the Arabic language

cheers

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

Quote

what proof? u only said "probably" this happened..that does not constitute as proof! infact the proof which u quote is found in the ahmadiyyat commentary...another coincidence...yes! -)

This i found through cross-refernence, and more people agree on this. Not just the ahmediya's. This is baseless deviating from the subject as you haven't answered it. I have the Quranic uses of words as proof! What do you have? Answer it instead of deviating. the ahmedya argument is only an ignorant attempt to make me look like an ahmedya. More people follow these conclusions, not only ahmedyas. But of course those people you don't mention...Plus, your views coincide with shia's, sunni's, salifa's,wahabi's,sufi's,sikhs and even al-qauda! Is that a coincedence or what! Your so-called refernce to the ahmedya's is baseless, as you neglect countless others of scholars who agree with me on this point. The only reason to mention this, is that you want to use it as slander. So ignorant........

Quote

like when u said "djinns" mean something different everytime they are used...but does the word "insaan" mean something different everytime the word is used? such arguments are not called proofs from quran...they are merely opinions! -)

Djinns mean not seen things/beings. It is the same as saying walking beings. A lot of things can be walking beings, not only humans. Humans is a title with a specific direction to a specific species. Djinn only refer to ONE aspect of the thing or being, it being not seen or not directly seen. Just like walking being only gives ONE aspect that can denote several beings. This is direct from the Quran and arabic meaning. Not opinion. Your jinn is based on opinion, not on proof. But this is not the subject. Again you deviade, by thinking this makes my argument weaker, it only shows you use deviation as your tactic. because also Dr.Shabbir says this, also Parwez, also Ahmed Ali, and more. And all of them are enemies of ahmedyas. So why don't you say i also coincide with these people? Because you think the ahmedya argument can be used as slander it seems. Don't take me wrong, but it looks like so...

Quote

u didnt explain anything according to quran...that "probably something happened" is not explanation! the old testament says moses was a prophet of god...so if u believe that moses is a prophet are u distorting the quran? or are u saying it under the influence of jews? or because the followers of old testament takes it literally u will interpret it allegorically and say moses is only an allegorical messenger? -)

The Quranic use of prophet and the way Moses is depicted coincide with the Thorah, so this example is baseless. As the Quranic use for Jesus's deeds, doesn't not coincide with the Gospels. As God uses it as metaphors, when you use cross-reference, while the Gospels that are contained in the Bible, are noted not to be trusted. Also older Gospels only refer to Jesus's words, not his deeds. The Gospel of Thomas is older then all the Gospels of the Bible, and doesn't contain ONE deed of Jesus, only his words. So you have to know what you are talking about. When you look at the Bible for information or cross-reference with the Quran, you must know the history behind the manuscript you're using. It is known, that the writers of those Gospels in the Bible, were not eye-witnesses and followed the dogma of divinity of Jesus, where it is not surprising they tried to represent him as a god on earth. You have to know what info you're using. And also your use fo proving your points are weak, as you take extreme opposites as examples, that have no coincidence with this. I also never doubted Jesus's prophethood, why?because the Quran is clear about the role of prophets.

Quote

that he could cure the blind was an ayat from his lord which he came with read the verse again! i cannot make the blind see, but let me give an example

let us suppose u are spiritually blind...then what is the ayat with which i come to u? take another spiritually blind person and cure him? when u are urself spiritually blind how will u understand what has happened? will u consider the spiritually blind person to be blind? no infact u would consider him blind after his having been cured!

again let us suppose u are spiritually blind i come to u and there is a blind person so i heal the person and he can see...now whether u are spiritually blind or not u can see the person has regained sight! thats an ayat!

now if u can provide some understanding of the ayat with which he came then do so! -)

Yes, i can, but i doubt you will see it....

214. When they meet the faithful they say "We believe;" but when alone with the devils (their fellows), they say "We are really with you; we were joking."
215. But God will turn the joke against them and allow them to sink deeper into evil and wander perplexed in their wickedness.
216. They are indeed those who bartered away good guidance for error and gained nothing from the deal, nor found the right way.
217. They are like a man who kindles a fire, and when its glow has illumined the air God takes away their light leaving them in the dark where they will not be able to see.
218. They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;

Ok, here you can see clearly, that deniers are called they ARE deaf, dumb and BLIND. Are these metaphors? YES. Let's say such a person does stops denying and starts believing, is he then deaf dumb and BLIND still? No, he would HEAR and SEE again the truth.

210. Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
     The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself.

211. So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.

212. You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,

213. Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.

And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran

4144. If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.

Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.

You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.

5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.

Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions'or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this

5110. And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."

As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny, plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws
3112. Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.

This is my understanding using the Quran and the meanings of the words used. You can disagree, but what are your evidences? Also, you will not find ahmedya's agree with this interpretation, a pity you can't use that here he?

Quote

so have u discovered everything in nature? disbelievers say there is no god because they cannot see it do u disbelieve by jesus having been able to literally cured for reason other than that u have not seen it happen nor science has confirmed that for u?...notice the similarity in reasoning?

No i based on the Quran. God says He doesn't changes His laws, which also apply to nature's laws then. Plus cross-reference shows the explanation for these uses of words. And did i ever pointed out i knew everything in nature? No. Baseless argument again. And the argument of comparisons with the disbeleivers is ignorant. As i never claimed not believing in the literal curings based i never saw them. I based it on the Quran and the laws given by God in the Quran, that says His laws don't change, this includes nature's laws. And cross-reference gives a perfect use of what is meant with these verses.

Quote

u said god is beyond the natural laws....ask anybody what is that which is beyond natural laws...u will get "supernatural"!

No, it is not. Supernatural is something that cannot be proven by science. God is proven by science. Big difference...

Peace

[TheNabi]

Peace

read 10100

explain 4153

read 5122

I'm not sure why you are telling me to read these. You give no reasons and I can only guess that you mean to say I am wrong based on the context of these ayatin.

Ayat 10/100 extends back to a doubt in man discussed in earlier ayatin where men are given leave to be rejectors and those who will take hold of God's rope shall do so. This in no way disturbs my reasoning that you should heed God's advice and look for the signs all about you in order to grasp the theoretical constructs in the reading.

Ayat 41/53 shows me that in order to competently grasp the theoretical constructs of the reading one should see and experience these contructs. I was once given great advice by another regarding my problem with being too theoretical. It was told "The eyes ponder and the air sweeps!".

Ayat 51/22 seems to be pretty clear about al/sama being that from which people derive rizqu/provision wamatoo'adoona/that you are promised. It is as observable as communication systems for our communities .

what according to u is supernatural?

Superman, but then again...

i see around me life and death, and i talk with people confused i do not see them being resurrected from the dead...do u? -)

Sometimes I do. There are people who see the light after being in the dark. When your flesh and bones rot you will be resurrected like the earth after its death, and that is easy to God.

Joe

[ayman]

Peace brother Wakas, all,

Thank you for starting this interesting discussion.

religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.

The above definition is not accurate. Religion pertains to humans not to imaginary/supernatural power. Nature is reality so supernatural inherently means "not real". I think that when we look in the great reading for clues to what religion is we can get a more relevant definition.

If one thinks of being a Jew or a Nazarene as belonging to a religion then the closest Arabic word to "religion" in the great reading is "millat" (for example 2135). We don't hear in the great reading Judaism or Christianity described as "deen". The word "deen" as you correctly indicate means obligation/debt.

So a passage such as 319 is telling us that our obligation to The God is the ACTION of submission/compliance. It is not the meaningless label that people put on us when we are born into a certain religion. All obligations other than the one in 319 are obligations to people, to priests, to Mullahs, to Rabbis, etc. They are not obligations to The God.

One thing we learn about the difference between "millat" and "deen" is that while "deen" is universally related to The God, "millat" is only related to people. Thus, we hear that everything in the heavens and the earth "asalam"/submit/comply to The God. So even without human beings, the "deen"/obligation of "islam"/submission/compliance would exist. On the other hand, all religions are manmade and they wouldn't exist without people. Even monotheism is manmade. Thus, it is described as "millat Ibrahim" never as "millat Allah". Since "millat"/religion is invented by and dependent on humans, then any correct definition must take that into account.

We are told in the great reading that the "millat"/religion of Ibrahim is monotheism and he was not from those who setup partners. This is it. This is the only "millat"/religion that we should be OK with. Notice again that the definition of the "millat"/religion of Ibrahim is human-dependent. Other creatures in the heavens and the earth do not setup partners with The God. This is only a human act resulting from humans letting the human fantasy ("jinn&quot have power over them.

So if I was to modify the above definition that you gave with a more accurate definition, it would be

A set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to humans.

In other words, more simply and clearly, the definition would be

Human attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

If we are to define "millat"/religion of Ibrahim as a subset of the above general definition, it would be

Human attitudes, beliefs and practices of not setting up partners with The God.

Peace,

Ayman

[thegod]

arnoldyasin wrote
This i found through cross-refernence, and more people agree on this. Not just the ahmediya's. This is baseless deviating from the subject as you haven't answered it. I have the Quranic uses of words as proof! What do you have? Answer it instead of deviating. the ahmedya argument is only an ignorant attempt to make me look like an ahmedya. More people follow these conclusions, not only ahmedyas. But of course those people you don't mention...Plus, your views coincide with shia's, sunni's, salifa's,wahabi's,sufi's,sikhs and even al-qauda! Is that a coincedence or what! Your so-called refernce to the ahmedya's is baseless, as you neglect countless others of scholars who agree with me on this point. The only reason to mention this, is that you want to use it as slander. So ignorant........

do u recognise this

arnoldyasin wrote
It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences.

so wonder what u talking about! -S

also, the last time around...regarding djinns and solomon's armies...u pointed out it was only a coincidence! so this time around i myself pointed it out that this again is a coindidence, to save u the trouble! -)

the first reading that comes across is the first impression and the first reading is literal, so to start off with the literal reading and see if it makes sense is just common sense..but like they say..common sense aint so common! -)

here is an example
i say "hey there's that dude who claims to be from god, and that he makes the stones talk and the paralysed stand!"...and u are like.."wow...really? did u see/hear stones talking and the paralysed getting up?"....and i say "naah! it was just an allegory....i meant he can make very reserved people talk freely and he gives the money to the financially disabled so they can stand on their own feet! -S..yes..pathetic!

arnoldyasin wrote
Djinns mean not seen things/beings. It is the same as saying walking beings. A lot of things can be walking beings, not only humans. Humans is a title with a specific direction to a specific species. Djinn only refer to ONE aspect of the thing or being, it being not seen or not directly seen. Just like walking being only gives ONE aspect that can denote several beings. This is direct from the Quran and arabic meaning. Not opinion. Your jinn is based on opinion, not on proof. But this is not the subject. Again you deviade, by thinking this makes my argument weaker, it only shows you use deviation as your tactic. because also Dr.Shabbir says this, also Parwez, also Ahmed Ali, and more. And all of them are enemies of ahmedyas. So why don't you say i also coincide with these people? Because you think the ahmedya argument can be used as slander it seems. Don't take me wrong, but it looks like so..
.

i will wait for ur article to be posted! -) infact...i remember there was somebody who posted that djinns are fantasies...but i dont remember who it was...but when ur article is out, i will see them together! -) or maybe since ur djinns are hidden things/beings and his djinns are fantasies...i will simply search that article out and pit ur articles against each other...cool! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
The Quranic use of prophet and the way Moses is depicted coincide with the Thorah, so this example is baseless.
As the Quranic use for Jesus's deeds, doesn't not coincide with the Gospels. As God uses it as metaphors, when you use cross-reference, while the Gospels that are contained in the Bible, are noted not to be trusted.
Also older Gospels only refer to Jesus's words, not his deeds. The Gospel of Thomas is older then all the Gospels of the Bible, and doesn't contain ONE deed of Jesus, only his words. So you have to know what you are talking about. When you look at the Bible for information or cross-reference with the Quran, you must know the history behind the manuscript you're using. It is known, that the writers of those Gospels in the Bible, were not eye-witnesses and followed the dogma of divinity of Jesus, where it is not surprising they tried to represent him as a god on earth. You have to know what info you're using. And also your use fo proving your points are weak, as you take extreme opposites as examples, that have no coincidence with this. I also never doubted Jesus's prophethood, why?because the Quran is clear about the role of prophets.

huh? it is u who is claiming that the quranic understanding of miracles does not coincide with the gospel's use...to just say so without proving is it is futility! -) as for gospel cannot be trusted as it contains objectionable stuff goes....so does the old testament contain them! or do u believe the old testament depicting aaron as setting up a calf as god for the people? and of the lustful david coveting the wife of 1 of his armymen? why double standards? -S

what use? that i base it on bible is what u allege...without proof! -S and v know what the quran says about slandering traducers! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
Yes, i can, but i doubt you will see it....

214. When they meet the faithful they say "We believe;" but when alone with the devils (their fellows), they say "We are really with you; we were joking."
215. But God will turn the joke against them and allow them to sink deeper into evil and wander perplexed in their wickedness.
216. They are indeed those who bartered away good guidance for error and gained nothing from the deal, nor found the right way.
217. They are like a man who kindles a fire, and when its glow has illumined the air God takes away their light leaving them in the dark where they will not be able to see.
218. They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;

Ok, here you can see clearly, that deniers are called they ARE deaf, dumb and BLIND. Are these metaphors? YES. Let's say such a person does stops denying and starts believing, is he then deaf dumb and BLIND still? No, he would HEAR and SEE again the truth.

210. Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
     The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself.

211. So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.

212. You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,

213. Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.

And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran

4144. If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.

Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.

217 Their example (is) as the one who ignited a fire, so when it lit/illuminated what (is) around/surrounding him, God took/went away with their light, and left them in darknesses, they do not see/understand .

i dont see if u overlooked that this is a "mithaal"..or u conveniently skipped it! in the mithaal, a person lights a fire, and when the fire starts illuminating the place, god takes away their light...leaving them in darkness...where they cannot see! in the mithaal...the application is literal...it cannot be that god took away the physical light and they could not see spiritually... i hope u study verses before posting them...else it will look like an attempt to mislead! -)

210. In their hearts/minds (is) sickness/disease, so God increased them sickness/disease, and for them (is a) painful torture because (of) what they were lying/denying/falsifying .

do u understand the difference between the usage of a "mithaal" and what u have used here? here only "sickness" is symbolic for disbelief...such usage is not called allegoric use! i hope u will mind the difference between how u understand and what really is! -)

if i tell u "my eyes are blind to truth"...it is only symbolic for my being unable to see the truth...u cannot interpret it in any other way...because it does not mean i cannot physicllay see things...only i cannot see the truth about them!...v will call this type a!

however, an allegory has more interpretations than 1...like in 217! there v can derive a literal understanding, as well a conveyed 1!

example "in a dark night i brought a light for u, but u threw away the light, now endure in darkness"...here it can very well mean the apparent the night is dark, i bring u a torch but u throw it away, so now u have to stay in darkness!

however, it can also be understood as u being in ignorance of something, and i brought u knowledge regarding it, but u refused the knowledge, so now u will continue in ur ignorance!

see? in such types there are different understandings that can be derived from the statement...and v will call this type b! let's learn the usage of quran...rather than trying to teach the quran according to r learning! -)

27 81 Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (any one) except those who believe in Our communications, so they submit.

by saying that jesus made the spiritually blind to see...u are contradicting this verse...quran states here and at other places, that only who wills to have faith shall be guided, but u are claiming jesus guided them against their will! the quran states that god does not guide except those who wish to be guided...so u are actually contradicting the quran! -)

4144 And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.

that is another problem for ur assumption the verse clearly says it is a healing for those who believe...so spiritually it can heal only those who believe...but u are claiming that jesus healed those who disbelieved, and that contradicts the message of quran that none shall heed it except who wills to! however physical healing does not suffer from this flaw, jesus can physically heal a believer as well as a disbeliever, and it will not violate the message of quran!

the ahmadiyyat commentary acknowledges this problem, that the allegory thing implies jesus healed those who disbelieved, which is against the essence of the message, and though it does not explicitly mention this anomaly in its understanding, it suggests that these were not disbelievers, only they did not have proper knowledge! but the quran, as u demonstrated through ur verses, equates the spiritually blind with the disbelievers (thummun bukmun umyun fahum layarjiun)! infact to work around this problem, the ahmadiyyat commentary says jesus worked no miracles but this clearly betrays its understanding of the quran, as in the quran these (creating a bird out of teen and breathing into it life, reviving the dead, healing blindness and skin abrasions) have not been applied to any other messenger! moses is another messenger who performed miracles...so the quran is in perfect agreement with jesus performing miracles, by god's leave! -)

here are a few verses where the use is plainly literal

20125 He will say "O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?"

spiritually healthy in this life...but spiritually blind in the after? cool! -)

4817 No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war) But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

metaphors? blind and lame and ill allegorically? -S

219 Or as a rain from the sky, in it (is) darknesses and thunder and lightning, they put their fingers intheir ears from the thunderous noise , fearing the death , and God (is) with the disbelievers surrounding/enveloping .

when u hear thunder...do u put ur allegorical fingers in ur allegorical ears? -)

so v can sum it up as ur argument being based on blind being used as a metaphor, but v also see it has been used literally!

from the verses u provide, and elsewhere, v see that god never gives spiritual wealth to people except when they have faith, so ur assumption that jesus made those who disbelieve believe contradicts the quran itself! if u say he simply preached the message, then this was done by all other messengers, but these has been called as 'ayats' with which jesus came..and are made as a special case for jesus! v do not read such allegories attributed to other prophets, simply their lives have been recalled, so why make an exception to jesus' account and insist on seeing allegories? -)

arnoldyasin wrote
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.

agree! i hope u too will remember that...go through the above posts....perhaps next time u will use cross-referencing carefully! -)

[thegod]

arnoldyasin wrote
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.

Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions'or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this

5110. And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."

as far as magic goes...which verse exactly are u talking about? is it 3715? or other verses where they called the resurrection and the fire as "sihrun mubin"? had u posted the verse it might have helped better! -)

i think perhaps the word used means "illusion"! so when they were said about resurrection...or of a retribution....they claimed it to be an illusion of the messenger...that they had not heard anything like it among their people...

541 The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.

542 But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."

543 They reject (the warning) and follow their (own) lusts but every matter has its appointed time.

544 There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them),

now if i came to u warning u about resurrection and judgement, u would not call it my magic...rather u would call it my illusion..and that is the sense the word has been used!

however, there were miracles...like of moses and the magicianshere v can see that they created an illusion on account of which moses thought their cords were moving...but when moses threw his staff, it swallowed even that which they had thrown down..which were in reality their cords rather than any moving things...and they realised that what moses wrought was real..as opposed to their created illusions!

now pharaoh may not have seen the cords of the magicians as moving...unless he was also under an illusion..but he must have surely seen the staff of moses devour their cords...as it was real...but instead of believing by it the way the magicians did...he proceeded to call moses the master illusionist, the teacher of those magicians! so here an actual miracle has been called as an illusion!

i hope that helps! -)

coming back to the rest of 5110, u said "apart from 'bird'"...so bird can be interpreted literally...i am glad u agree..else i would have had to post a verse! -)

there is no "ur people's" in there.....no need to add text to god's words! -)

in 1 instance u translate it as "ur people's destiny", and in another u translate it as "rose"...cool!

mire? can u give the quranic reference for this? i dont want some historian or lexicologist.....plain, unconfused cross reference from the quran! -)

jesus created state of destiny from mire? -S...and blew into it? -S...and it rose! -... cool! -)

ofcourse there's more to this...but i think i get ur idea of cross-reference! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny,

u do not see the apparent meanings...but u clearly see that which is not there...in other words it does not show ur what u claim clearly...especially if u say even after that...because ur "they rose" stands in plain contradiction! u cannot say that he created their destiny's state on 1 hand so they "rose"....while on the other say that their destiny's state remained same before and after! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws

which laws? give ur reference...and a better cross-referencing! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
3112. Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.

yes...unless they want to be healed, they would not be healed...this verse contradicts ur theory! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
This is my understanding using the Quran and the meanings of the words used. You can disagree, but what are your evidences?

yes..now u have put it in a better way it is ur understanding! -) no...i have no problems with that! and i appreciate u allow me to disagree because i will do just that! -)

i asked u to demonstrate an application of ur understanding...which u have not done...the way i tried if i show a spiritually blind person that i can heal the blind, he can see that i have actually healed the blind! u have not demonstrated ur understanding! how will a spiritually blind person see another spiritually blind person being spiritually healed? instead of helping ur cause by giving a practical demonstration, u embarked on a trip of distorted cross-referencing! ...so u still need to do demonstrate the application of ur understanding...the way i tried to!

god does not heal a person spiritually till the person desires to be healed....but u are stating jesus went about healing persons spiritually even when they were averse to it! u are contradicing quran itself! -)

if u say they were not averse to it and they desired to see guidance...then this was done by all messengers....but v have these special cases reserved for mentioning with regards to jesus...no other prophet has been depicted as breathing life into a bird created from clay..or healing the blind...or bringing the dead to life...it is jesus alone who has been attributed such miracles by the god's leave....so it still doesnt add up! u need to bring something from the quran to back up ur claims...proof from quran! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
Also, you will not find ahmedya's agree with this interpretation, a pity you can't use that here he?

well...if u instist! -)

v did not see any allegory of tayr being created outta teen and being breathed life into except for these 2 cases! what v did see was ur addition "ur people's" to the text of god, among other things! -) as for the "rose" and "destiny"...the ahmadiyyat commentary tells of the lowly materialists who could not see beyond material world, were spiritually blind, soaring spiritually to great heights, becoming preachers for christ...just in case u would like to know what the ahmadiyyat says...since u said the ahmadiyyas disagree with u! infact the words "new spirit" are present in the translation itself...and the rest in the commentary! cool! -)

v do not have an allegory where a spiritually dead person was revived..spiritually (uhil mauta bi idhnillah) ! v do not have allegories where those suffering from skin abrasions were healed...allegorically! v do not have allegories regarding informing people by that which they eat and that which they hoard!

ur only claim was that the words are used as allegories...but v see the same words have been used literally as well...so in absence of any proof from quran...ur assumptions are not admissible! -)

nor have u presented an allegorical use of the actual word used in those 2 verses check the arabic word which has been translated as blind in those verses! like i said above, the ahmadiyyat commentary has tried to find a workaround, but it is as usual based on their distortion, however that if u present the same argument as theirs! -)

if taken allegorically they apply to all prophets, so in light of the fact that that which has been attributed to jesus in those 2 verses has not been attributed to any prophet anywhere else... v are forced to require proof for the assumption that they are allegories! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
No i based on the Quran. God says He doesn't changes His laws, which also apply to nature's laws then. Plus cross-reference shows the explanation for these uses of words. And did i ever pointed out i knew everything in nature? No. Baseless argument again.

v just saw how u apply cross-reference....the quran says god does not change the condition of people till they themselves change it...but u insist jesus healed them spiritually! and if u say it was just by reciting the message...then this was done by all messengers!..but the same literal happenings have been mentioned in those 2 verses..with 349 giving 2 more ayats! -)

u do not know everything that happnes still u do not want to admit v should believe by the text of quran rather than trying to reduce to allegoreies that which seems improbable to us! but yes...u do believe by torah's depiction of moses...so u believe by the parting of the sea as described in the quran...so such super-natural events do take place...wonder why u choose not to believe by quran when it comes to jesus' miracles! ofcourse, the ahmadiyyas believe by the parting as well...only like always it has incorrect cross-referencing, and according to them it was just high-tide and low-tide..which like their other theories, are against quran...as it clearly says it (water) split with each side being like mighty mounds..read the ahmadiyyat understanding to see how they have cross-referenced their distortion! -S pointed out just to let u know about other miracles, unless ofcourse u do not believe in this 1 either! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
And the argument of comparisons with the disbeleivers is ignorant. As i never claimed not believing in the literal curings based i never saw them. I based it on the Quran and the laws given by God in the Quran, that says His laws don't change, this includes nature's laws. And cross-reference gives a perfect use of what is meant with these verses.

which verse states that? the example u gave shows that god does not heal the spiritually blind unless they abandon their disbelief.....so ur assumptions contradict the quran! -) as for other fields...when zechariah found mary with sustenance and asked about it...she said god gives to whom it will without hisaab!...also v have the verse which says "...wa tarzuqu man tashau bi gayri hisaab"...so u need to quote specific verses which show exactly what u are stating! so post the verse that v may study it! -)

u do not know everything in nature...and that should be enough for u to realise that which u cannot observe need not be untrue...only that be false which contradicts the quran! -)

and v have seen that what contradicts quran is the claim that god will spiritually cause to heal those who are averse to it.....so these are not cross-references but contradictions! -)

arnoldyasin wrote
No, it is not. Supernatural is something that cannot be proven by science. God is proven by science. Big difference...

when did the scientific community gave its verdict over god to u? can u point out since when has science recognised god the way it recognises earth's rotation around the sun? -)

dont mind....but i think v are not interested in personal definitions...rather that which exists...supernatural is that which cannot be explained by nor is subject to natural laws...if u believe science has explained and encompassed god and subjected god to natural laws...well...cool! -)

as a believer i believe natural laws are subject to god...rather than god being subject to them i have enough examples in the quran of moses, of abraham, of solomon, of christ, of adam! and i do not disbelieve by them simply because i cannot verify them! -)

lolz..i had no idea this crap was so long! -S

peace -)

[thegod]

thenabi wrote
I'm not sure why you are telling me to read these. You give no reasons and I can only guess that you mean to say I am wrong based on the context of these ayatin.

i want u to tie these with establishing resurrection as plainly as life and death...which u claim it does!

thenabi wrote
Ayat 10/100 extends back to a doubt in man discussed in earlier ayatin where men are given leave to be rejectors and those who will take hold of God's rope shall do so. This in no way disturbs my reasoning that you should heed God's advice and look for the signs all about you in order to grasp the theoretical constructs in the reading.

the signs u are talking about are for those who wish to believe...they can see in those signs and marvel at the creator...yes..v can deduce a creator from this....as for those who disbelieve they will not benefit aught from these! but how do u use this ayah to scientifically establish "resurrection" as natural as life and death? do u observe it around u? i hope u understand what a scientifically accepted fact is like say the sun rises in the east!

thenabi wrote
Ayat 41/53 shows me that in order to competently grasp the theoretical constructs of the reading one should see and experience these contructs. I was once given great advice by another regarding my problem with being too theoretical. It was told "The eyes ponder and the air sweeps!".

it is talking about the hour..refer 781-5...if u understand anything else then do elaborate! -)

thenabi wrote
Ayat 51/22 seems to be pretty clear about al/sama being that from which people derive rizqu/provision wamatoo'adoona/that you are promised. It is as observable as communication systems for our communities .

do u get ur sustenance dropped from the skies? it means god supplies..i think...whereas what i am asking u is to establish "resurrection" as naturally as life and death...or establish it the way it is established that sun rises from the east...those who believe by the quran will believe by it... but until it remains unseen and incapable of being put into equations...it will be considered a supernatural event...as there are no laws which have been used to resurrect the dead!

and supernatural is not unreal...it is that which is not subjected to the laws which v observe around us...like v see people die...that is natural...but v do not see them resurrected from ashes or their graves! -)

thenabi wrote
Superman, but then again...

are u talking given his existence or when he does not exist? if he does not exist he is non-existent, not supernatural!

if there is a planet krypton which has its own laws..then superman would not be supernatural...v know laws which apply within r atmospehere may suspend or alter as v move away from earth...so if supernatural is being unprovable by science or deducing, then given a planet krypton superman would not be supernatural, science will very easily get a measure of him in accordance with kryptonic laws!

thenabi wrote
Sometimes I do. There are people who see the light after being in the dark.

what does that have to do with resurrection? i hope u understand u said it is as natural as life and death -)

thenabi wrote
When your flesh and bones rot you will be resurrected like the earth after its death, and that is easy to God.

yes..that is easy to god...as easy as giving life and death...but i see people being born and people dying...i do not see people cremated or buried being resurrected! -)

could u demonstrate the resurrection of the dead earth and link it scientifically to human resurrection, so that i can tell people resurrection is as natural as life and death? -)

peace -)

[thegod]

ayman wrote
Nature is reality so supernatural inherently means "not real".

source?

as far as not being real is concerned, it is just that unreal! -)

supernatural means just that supernatural

dictionaries would define it as something not conforming to natural laws, beyond the understanding of universal laws, not explainable by laws and god is just that! -)

ofcourse, v are interested in words as they are understood, and not personal definitions! -)

[thegod]

ahmedbahgat wrote
this is anothet clear cut example of some muslims wasting their time trying to figure out what Islam (with a capital I) means, they also waste their time trying to know if it is the name of the Deen or not, Ironically the Quran gave clear answers to those questions but they like to resport to some flawed dictionries made by some non arabs, very strange man, the ego of those people are way too high

yes..that is amusing...but the most amusing part is they will make use of anything that contradicts the popular understanding..and whether this means referring to non-muslims or shias or sunnis or others...it does not matter to them! i have seen people who quote sunni hadith to prove a point...which i find amusing! if v are to base our understanding on quran, then why resort to selective usage of traditions to prove traditions are wrong, quran is sufficient light to seperate truth from falsehood! -)

ahmedbahgat wrote
the main point is, Deen does not mean system, Deen in Arabic means that you are in debt and you have to pay back, for example if I borrow money from a bank then I owe the bank a Deen

now we are in debts to our creator and we have to pay back, and the way to pay back is detailed in Judaism Christianity and Islam thus all three are called Deen

the deen of god is the deen alhaqq! however, this deen is followed only when it is accepted and enacted, not is everybody by default in the deen of allah! v see in 383 that deen other than god's is possible, but fruitless, since everybody does obey the laws of god, willing or unwillingly! trees cannot start flying in the air, nor can humans become immortal, within the limits set by god, they do comply to it! -) also, 1102, talks about humans entering the deen of god, if they were never out of it, they would not enter it! -)

infact, 1096 says to those who do not believe that to them be their deen and to the believers be their deen..and since there is no other god whose universe they may live by...it would mean they would have their set of beliefs and applications...and the believers theirs! -)

ahmedbahgat wrote
don't waste your time bro with those who think they got it all yet their arguments are so weak and unfounded not to mention their ignorance with the Arabic language

lolz yeah! what i do not want to see are assumptions, addition to the quran, changing of the diacriticals, unfounded re-interpretation of words of quran, illogical cross-referencing, and even reinvention of english words! i had some time..so i thought maybe i will check here a final time! -)

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

No changing in God's law, this includes in His Deen and all creation.

3030. So keep yourself exclusively on the true way, the creational law of God according to which He created man with the quality of choosing right or wrong. There is no altering/changing of God's creation. This is the supreme law. But most men do not understand.

3031. Such was the law of God among those before you; and you will not find any change in the law of God.

3032. As did their arrogance in the land, and their plotting of evil. But their evil plots will turn back on the plotters themselves. So can they expect any thing but what befell the earlier people? You will not find any change in the law of God, nor will you find divine law mutable.

3033. This is the law of God, effective as before You will not find any change in the law of God.

Crossreference use of Tairn which you have ignored

7131 Fa-itha jaat-humu alhasanatuqaloo lana hathihi wa-in tusibhumsayyi-atun yattayyaroo bimoosa waman maAAahu alainnama ta-iruhum AAinda Allahi walakinnaaktharahum la yaAAlamoona .

131 So if the good/goodness came to them, they said "This (is) for us." And if a sin/crime hits/strikes them , they get (have) a bad omen with Moses and whom (is) with him. Is it not, but their bad omen (is) at God, and but most of them do not know.

2747 Qaloo ittayyarna bikawabiman maAAaka qala ta-irukum AAinda Allahibal antum qawmun tuftanoona .

47 They said "We had a bad omen with you (you are a bad omen to us), and with whom (is) with you." He said "Your omen (fate/future is) at God, but you are a nation being tested/misguided ."

3619 Qaloo ta-irukum maAAakum a-in thukkirtumbal antum qawmun musrifoona.

19 They said "Your omen (fate/future is) with you, (even if you) are, you were reminded, but you are a nation (of) wasters/extravagators ."

1713 Wakulla insanin alzamnahu ta-irahufee AAunuqihi wanukhriju lahu yawma alqiyamati kitabanyalqahu manshooran .

13 And every human/mankind We obliged/compelled him his action/anger in his neck (made himresponsible), and We bring out/make emerge for him (on) the Resurrection Day a Book/judgment he finds it spread/publicized .

Dr.Shabbir
5110 When Allah will say, ?O Jesus, son of Mary! Recall My blessings upon you and your mother. I strengthened you with Sacred Revelation, enabled you to speak eloquently to the people while still in childhood, and also at a later age (345). I gave you revelation and wisdom including the Torah and the Gospel. Recall that you told them that you would raise them from dust up into the heights of glory by My leave (7176). You made people see the Truth otherwise given to blind following by My leave. You healed the wounds of inequity on people by My leave, and you gave a new meaning to life to those who were otherwise no better than dead by My leave (348, 3111, 6123). Recall, how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with all evidence of the truth (4157). And those who were bent upon denying the truth said, ?This is nothing but clear deception.?

Literal
and when you create as shaped/formed (of) their destiny with My permission/leave, so you blow in it, so it will be rising destiny/destination, with My permission/leave,

The translation i used in my previous post is by Ahmed Ali.

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created their destiny's state on 1 hand so they "rose"....while on the other say that their destiny's state remained same before and after

355. When God said "O Jesus, I will take you to Myself and exalt you, and rid you of the infidels, and hold those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. You have then to come back to Me when I will judge between you in what you were at variance."

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so this time around i myself pointed it out that this again is a coindidence, to save u the trouble! -)

Which shows you only want to use it as slander. But you slander yourself with your behaviour. I follow my own findings, and i agree with Dr.Shabbir, Parwez and Ahmed Ali's understandings, which all coincide with mine. I have nothing to do with hadith people like the ahmedya's.

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i will wait for ur article to be posted! -) infact...i remember there was somebody who posted that djinns are fantasies...but i dont remember who it was...but when ur article is out, i will see them together! -) or maybe since ur djinns are hidden things/beings and his djinns are fantasies...i will simply search that article out and pit ur articles against each other...cool! -)

since ur djinns are hidden things/beings

This is the clear arabic translation, so these are not mine. Also you shows again you don't care about the truth, it is a pity. Pit out your behaviour............

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that is another problem for ur assumption the verse clearly says it is a healing for those who believe...so spiritually it can heal only those who believe...but u are claiming that jesus healed those who disbelieved, and that contradicts the message of quran that none shall heed it except who wills to! however physical healing does not suffer from this flaw, jesus can physically heal a believer as well as a disbeliever, and it will not violate the message of quran!

God says that Jesus helped people that were otherwise spiritualy blind till death by His leave
by My leave
by My leave
by My leave............

10100. Are you going to compel the people to believe except by God's dispensation? He puts doubt in (the minds of) those who do not think.

Only by God's leave, people can believe. So your argument falls, as God clearly says, that He allowed this to happen, by His leave.

And about Moses parting of the sea

250 And when/where We separated with you the sea , so We saved/rescued you, and We drowned/sunk Pharaoh's people and (while) you are looking/watching .

2077 And We had inspired/transmitted to Moses that walk/move with My worshippers/slaves so strike/move adry a path/way in the sea/ocean , do not fear over taking/pursuit , and nor you (should) fear."

2663 Then We revealed to Moses, ?Strike the sea with your staff. (Seek for them a dry path with confidence. Cross over the dried up Sea of Reeds 2077, 4424). The morning found the two parties apart like two hills with a basin in between.

I don't really see a miracle here. The Pharoah was taken by the floods which took them by surprise. And it says, strike a path through the dry part. Floods can overwhelm you and cannot be underestimated.

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i dont see if u overlooked that this is a "mithaal"..or u conveniently skipped it! in the mithaal, a person lights a fire, and when the fire starts illuminating the place, god takes away their light...leaving them in darkness...where they cannot see! in the mithaal...the application is literal...it cannot be that god took away the physical light and they could not see spiritually... i hope u study verses before posting them...else it will look like an attempt to mislead! -)

You ignore the last sentence
218. They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;

These are metaphorical. Next time study them yourself more closely before answering.

I'm done here. I have proven my point. Next time when you imply that i ignore things on purpose, make sure you are not guilty of this yourself.

Peace

[ayman]

Peace TG,

ayman wrote
Nature is reality so supernatural inherently means "not real".

source?

Common sense. Look it up when you can -)

as far as not being real is concerned, it is just that unreal! -)

supernatural means just that supernatural

"supernatural means supernatural", what an intelligent observation -)

dictionaries would define it as something not conforming to natural laws, beyond the understanding of universal laws, not explainable by laws and god is just that! -)

What do you mean by "universal laws"? Do you mean human or The God's laws?

Everything is not explainable by human laws. Even the simplest thing. This is why what we know is very little compared to what we don't know. From the smallest insect to the biggest galaxy we only understand the very basic and even simple questions such as "how does a mosquito fly?" we can't fully answer. If we knew the "universal laws" about house flies then we can create our own flies. So according to your dictionary nature is "supernatural".

If you mean The God's law by "universal law" then everything conforms to The God's laws, unless of course you want to propose otherwise and reject The God.

So either way what you are saying is false.

ofcourse, v are interested in words as they are understood, and not personal definitions! -)

I am not interested in being clueless by saying "supernatural means just that supernatural" and demonstrating zero understanding and adding zero value.

Peace,

Ayman