Is banning forever?

TAJ

Please brothers! It is a serious issue here. I really wish that you stick to what the thread is about, please. Brother Jaxal has been falsely accused and forced to pay by being banned for things he did not do. Do you think this is fair?
We are awaiting now for the female accuser to come out and speak the truth. Let's just hope that she has some courage and integrity left in her to do the right thing and fix what she has damaged with her own hands. It should be easier for her to do it in this life and apologize than to wait for Al Akhirah and deal with it with Allah!
Thank you, my dear brothers. We are all one big family and I appreciate your cooperation and support.

David

Peace all,

I would not be in favour of unbanning, unless it was established that a person was banned unjustly.

peace

TAJ

Peace Stillearning, All

Salaam Elke

The first ones to be banned should be the false accuser(s)

There seems to be a deafning silence from the moderators on this issue, not even a rebuttal. This from people who claim to uphold the values of the Quran.
regards

I trust that the Admins are looking now deeper into this issue, that is why, I think, it is taking them this long.. I hope it turns out for the best of everybody.
And usually it is the people who hold high values of Quran and faith in Allah who are usually tested. The higher the faith the tougher the test!

savage_carrot

Peace,

Having revisited the original thread, here is a post that might be of interest-

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4616.30

Peace all,

The subject of banning is a tricky one where all people cannot be pleased no matter what.

For the benefit of those who are relatively new to the forum, and who are voicing both shock & anger, I would just like to point out some history on how this issue evolved.

This forum began as a completely rule free forum where people would come and meet to discuss the subject of God first and foremost. The assumption (wrongly) was that since people are coming to discuss the Creator, they would know the rules and laws ordained by God (do not call each other names, a good word is like a good tree, etc.) and thus we would not have any problems.

As time progressed and the forum grew, we began getting obnoxious or rude individuals who's only goal was to sideline or disrupt peaceful discussions...The individuals were ignored and it was even posted that other members ignore them rather than be swept into unfruitful and/or destructive discussions.

Alas, this method did not work, so action was reluctantly taken to ban the one or two individuals that were obviously out to do harm rather than share and learn.

After that the official forum rules were established, and they were not as long or detailed as the ones that exist now.

Then, the banning became problematic as people were screaming that it was 'censorship' and that this was against the laws of the Scripture, and that people were being banned for slightest offence, etc..

At this time, it was suggested by Edip to use the 'Trash' idea which is to create a category and place in it the posts that are offensive or disrupting...

This technique lasted for a short while until the offending posters began to expand their range and post in multiple places with many many posts all designed to get attention focused on them and away from the entire focus of the forum 'GOD'.

So, to keep the forum functioning the moderator must juggle between moving threads to trash, warning, and banning to simply keep order and focus.

That is a brief history...Just so you all know, I think it is sad to resort to this option...However, to keep the forum in a healthy state to benefit those who come to visit and contribute, some rules need to be enforced.

As for the banning of Jaxal.

Read the forum rules

Respect other users of the forum. Language and/or material of vulgarity, obscenity, harassment, profanity or insulting nature, whether it is direct or suggested, will NOT be tolerated. If there is a problem between two members, then it should be resolved through PM, NOT on public forum. Any messages containing such language OR material will be moved to the trash section or deleted, WITHOUT notice. Repeated use of such language in posts will result in a warning or/and a ban (Depending on the severity of breach of rules ).

I was the one who banned him after the following complaint was received

After such a humiliation i put your through, why would talk to me
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4139&start=125
Just like it was fun for me to toy with you with ur ridiculous claim of Quran being anti - democratic. Just like it was fun for me toy with ur reidiculour claim that the messenger needs to have good presentation skills. AND just like it was fun for me to toy with your ridiculour claim that Quran is not altered LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4139&start=125

mquran, dont be a mental retard. Atleast out of the whole book, you learnt the spelling of Torah. The rest, is like when a blind kid tries to read. And u aint even blind man. Or is it simply that you are too traumatized from a broken marriage or something? do you always have a big mouth on forums? Are u trying to make up for somethng you lack in real life?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4139&start=125

Do you think if you would have told him to get down on his al-knees and bark like a al-dog, he would done it? loooooooollll coz you seem to have some leash on him

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4140&start=375

Did you speak like to your ex wife? is that why she left you? If you dont agree with what is being said then stfu. dont spew hatered from your mouth towards those who dont agree with you.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4140&start=400

note 'stfu' means 'shut the **** up'.

The above posts are the reason Jaxal was banned.

Why was this person not temporarily banned or given a warning?

I checked with all mods beforehand and according to two of the mods they had warned him about the use of language in a post two or so months back.

That is how this moderation system works...It might suck in your opinion, it might be unfair, but unless you can come-up with ways to keep people from insulting or attacking each other or spamming or trolling, then please do make a workable suggestion here and now.

Otherwise, this forum will continue to remain dedicated to God and God Alone no matter how many times we are derailed or sidetracked.

P.S. I agree with brother Kyle on the flirting observation. It is evidinced by a sister officially complaining of harrasement (I have never received such a complaint in this forum in the years it has been active).

The issue of the alleged harrassment is not the reason why Jaxal was banned, so it is not right to raise that up as it does not constitute the reason or part of the reasons why he was banned.

Now, once again the core issue is...should banning be forever or temporary and should the previous bans be lifted? My reasons for favouring permanent banning are-

It is an effective deterrent for misbehaviour and the general atmosphere of the forum. Temporary banning only serves as a short respite after which the usual patterns of behaviour reassert themselves, thus leading to more strife and disharmony in the long run as opposed to a one time permanent ban.

So, because it is a new forum should we lift the ban off previous users and start afresh? This will open up the floodgates to all that were previously banned. In my opinion, it will cause a lot of chaos and disharmony and I do not doubt that some of the previous user's supporting the lifting of the ban will themselves come to see exactly why they were banned in the first place. In case one was to do that, I would still prefer a permanent ban as opposed to a temporary one because in my experience, the latter is not as efficient as the former. After that, a three strikes policy as applied by some moderators can be established and these can be applied across the board. This also might mean that some rules will have to be more strictly and impartially enforced that might make things more difficult for everyone and there might be a different atmosphere on the forum for some time. I am not saying that it will be done, just getting more suggestions and viewpoints from the others as it will cause the Admin and the moderators to put in more effort to make sure everything is running smoothly (well as smoothly as realistically possible in any case). So any constructive advice and/or working suggestions? No flaming please. Moderators and longtime members please do chime in!

TAJ

Peace David, All

Peace all,

I would not be in favour of unbanning, unless it was established that a person was banned unjustly.

peace

From the Admins point of view, everyone who is banned must have been banned justly. But even if one is banned, justly or not,, the banning should be, in my opinion, for a period of time and not forever because people do change, and there is always hope that they would learn from their mistakes and become better persons so why deny them another chance, chances?

warda

Peace Nadja, all

I guess that the pm from the female member encouraged the admin to ban Jaxal.

My point here is to let the forum know that it is not true that Jaxal did harass female members but that it was a faked action from two members here in order to kick him out.

As for the other reasons he should have got a warning at least which he didnt get, and let me advice to read the posts of mquran too, to get a complete picture. Althought i dont agree with the bringing up of personel private stuffs as he did, i dont see this as reason enough to ban permanently.

Salam

savage_carrot

Peace Warda,

I guess that the pm from the female member encouraged the admin to ban Jaxal.

Well, we can make an assumption that it might be the proverbial straw but according to the post above Layth has stated the reasons for the ban which do not include the harrassment.

My point here is to let the forum know that it is not true that Jaxal did harass female members but that it was a faked action from two members here in order to kick him out.

Indeed, I agree. If there are fake accusations...they must be clarified and made open to the public. I still hope that this person will come forward however anonymously and clear his name officially.

As for the other reasons he should have got a warning at least which he didnt get, and let me advice to read the posts of mquran too, to get a complete picture. Althought i dont agree with the bringing up of personel private stuffs as he did, i dont see this as reason enough to ban permanently.

I agree that the rules must be implemented more effectively and efficiently so as to minimize these situations. That is why I hope everyone will help in giving us working suggestions and constructive advice, so that the forum can operate as best it can for everyone.

unknownuser

Indeed, I agree. If there are fake accusations...they must be clarified and made open to the public. I still hope that this person will come forward however anonymously and clear his name officially.

Yes! This has gone long enough! Let this person come in - either to the moderators or come out publicly and retract this false accusations.

Regards,

unknownuser

Hi SC,

The reason(in my opinion) the permanent ban was wrong was becoz,

The above posts are the reason Jaxal was banned.

Why was this person not temporarily banned or given a warning?

I checked with all mods beforehand and according to two of the mods they had warned him about the use of language in a post two or so months back.

There were no ''warnings''.

P.S. I agree with brother Kyle on the flirting observation. It is evidinced by a sister officially complaining of harrasement (I have never received such a complaint in this forum in the years it has been active).

What evidence did Layth or Idolfree1 have for this accusation made? Can Idolfree quote his observations from Jaxal's posts related to flirting with female members?
Can they make/support/accept/ such accusations in a public forum without investigating, and also when the person is banned and has no way to be heard too? What does it say about a person when the administrator supports an accusation? Is it not important for the administrator to clearly investigate it before passing a public comment?

Peace!

unknownuser

Hi all,

I accidentally ran into this post(i've stopped reading anything from this member thats why accidental)

But surely, this language is keeping in line with forum rules

Islam's peace comes AFTER conflict and victory over mischief, not as a result of lying down and taking fecal matter from the likes of you.

From
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5765.msg86937#msg86937

Peace!

savage_carrot

Peace PM,

There were no ''warnings''.
The warnings were sent through PM I believe. I also think that Jaxal was warned not to use abusive language in the 'Musharraf/Earthquake' thread, where he did use some abusive language which was cleaned up. If you don't mind, I would like to ask you how you know there were no warnings?

What evidence did Layth or Idolfree1 have for this accusation made? Can Idolfree quote his observations from Jaxal's posts related to flirting with female members?
Can they make/support/accept/ such accusations in a public forum without investigating, and also when the person is banned and has no way to be heard too? What does it say about a person when the administrator supports an accusation? Is it not important for the administrator to clearly investigate it before passing a public comment?

I think I will let Idolfree1 and Layth speak for themselves here if they choose to. Secondly, since that is not why he was banned, and some members have a misconception that the accusations were why he was banned, I hope the previous post by Layth clarifies that particular point.

I accidentally ran into this post(i've stopped reading anything from this member thats why accidental)
I will try to clear up such language and personal remarks wherever I see them, and I hope you guys can help us out by sending a PM wherever you see them, so that conflicts can be defused before they have a chance to erupt and thus create more problems for everyone. I'm learning the ropes right now about the techinical aspects inclusive of cleaning up posts so please bear with me. Thanks.

unknownuser

Hi SC,

Nice to see u as a moderator.
Hope the forum will be much more civilised and clean, than it has been.
Good job, whoever did it.(?zenje )

The warnings were sent through PM I believe. I also think that Jaxal was warned not to use abusive language in the 'Musharraf/Earthquake' thread, where he did use some abusive language which was cleaned up. If you don't mind, I would like to ask you how you know there were no warnings?

The PM's he recieved said 'ur post has abusive language'. he replied 'sorry,. please delete it'. Would u consider this as a 'warning'? Did it say anything about being banned permanently the next time? Wont that be how a warning is made? Well, this information is from jaxal and the mod involved. U can check the previous thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4616.msg68048#msg68048

What evidence did Layth or Idolfree1 have for this accusation made? Can Idolfree quote his observations from Jaxal's posts related to flirting with female members?
Can they make/support/accept/ such accusations in a public forum without investigating, and also when the person is banned and has no way to be heard too? What does it say about a person when the administrator supports an accusation? Is it not important for the administrator to clearly investigate it before passing a public comment?

I think I will let Idolfree1 and Layth speak for themselves here if they choose to. Secondly, since that is not why he was banned, and some members have a misconception that the accusations were why he was banned, I hope the previous post by Layth clarifies that particular point.

Can u explain why a false accusation by the female member was made during the same time, a complaint was made by the male member?
Lets even forget the ban for a moment, r u saying any one can faslely accuse any one of moral inconduct and the administrator and moderators will support/accept/side it publicly in the forum without any evidence/without investigating? R u saying that means nothing?
I would propably say the ban is nothing but the false accusation is much worse.

I will try to clear up such language and personal remarks wherever I see them, and I hope you guys can help us out by sending a PM wherever you see them, so that conflicts can be defused before they have a chance to erupt and thus create more problems for everyone. I'm learning the ropes right now about the techinical aspects inclusive of cleaning up posts so please bear with me. Thanks.

I am sure u will do a good job, sc.
Congratulations for the tough job.

I just saw, a while back(i guess when u guys were trying out), a link beneath every post which read 'report to moderator', Which i think is a very good idea, and it will keep the forum clean coz thats an easy method for members to let the administrator know about the abusive posts. Propably u guys should bring that in.

Peace!

savage_carrot

Peace PM,

The PM's he recieved said 'ur post has abusive language'. he replied 'sorry,. please delete it'. Would u consider this as a 'warning'? Did it say anything about being banned permanently the next time? Wont that be how a warning is made? Well, this information is from jaxal and the mod involved. U can check the previous thread
Yes, this is exactly what I meant when I said the rules should be applied more effectively and efficiently. If you remember in the original thread, I posted about formal warnings and suggestions from people on how to better handle such things henceforth. I am going to try to apply a three strikes policy (maybe more would be better?) and in that, I would like offical complaints made to the mods wherever a problem arises.

I am sure u will do a good job, sc.
Congratulations for the tough job.

I just saw, a while back(i guess when u guys were trying out), a link beneath every post which read 'report to moderator', Which i think is a very good idea, and it will keep the forum clean coz thats an easy method for members to let the administrator know about the abusive posts. Propably u guys should bring that in.
Thanks so much for the vote of support, I hope to try and do a good job but filling in marie's shoes is not easy, she is quiet elegance. That is an excellent suggestion, I hope it can be incorporated in the forum. It would make things a lot easier )

David

Peace Taj, all,

From the Admins point of view, everyone who is banned must have been banned justly. But even if one is banned, justly or not,, the banning should be, in my opinion, for a period of time and not forever because people do change, and there is always hope that they would learn from their mistakes and become better persons so why deny them another chance, chances?

What I had meant was that if new information came to light that would overturn previous evidence for banning, then it should be taken into account.

Personally, I didn't like the old forum rules where anyone could be banned without warning. But, I knew what the rules were, and it was my choice to either accept them, or leave.
I like the new forum rules better where permanent banning occurs in stages. I believe permanent banning is necessary for the well-being and harmony of the forum; just as it is in "real life". Some people just don't like to play by the rules. Let us accept reality for what it is.

I do feel that all those who were banned had a general disruptive nature on the forum.

I respect whatever decision the mods/admins make.

Where are the forum rules listed now? I couldn't find them.
It might be a good idea to have users sign a 'contract' when they sign up as members, the contents of which are the forum rules.

peace

P.S. Congratulations to Sr. Nadia on her new appointment. God willing, she will do an excellent job. )

P.P.S. Thanks to Sr. Marie for all her hard work and elegance (as Nadia appropriately noted) in her job as moderator. Congratulations on the new baby, very cute. )

unknownuser

Hi SC and all,

Yes, this is exactly what I meant when I said the rules should be applied more effectively and efficiently. If you remember in the original thread, I posted about formal warnings and suggestions from people on how to better handle such things henceforth. I am going to try to apply a three strikes policy (maybe more would be better?) and in that, I would like offical complaints made to the mods wherever a problem arises.

Didnt quite understand. R u saying the mods/admins wont take any action on any abusive posts they spot if no member has complained about it? ???
I think all such posts should be dealt with, complaint made or not made.

And I think the current banning rules are quite fair.

Disciplinary Action/Ban Process

Please note that all banning/discipline action on this forum will require consensus between at least 2 of the mods.

Step 1. A formal 'warning' will be given to the offending member via private message with a reference to the post/link where the offence took place.
Step 2. A '1-week' ban will be instated on the username and IP of the offending member (member will be informed of the ban taking effect via e-mail).
Step 3. A '1-month' ban will be instated on the username and IP of the offending member (member will be informed of the ban taking effect via e-mail).
Step 4. A permanent ban will be placed on the
username and IP of the offending member (member will be informed of the ban taking effect via e-mail).

Note Spammers/Advertisers or posts of a severe inflamatory nature will be banned without notice.
from http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.0

I am not against permanent banning if it happens in steps like as planned. Hey, shouldnt the forum rules thread have a sticky? ???

And I would also suggest the mods/admins keep all the disciplinary actions including reasons transparent in a thread (one which can be used by only mods/admin, to avoid confusion) so that its transparent for every one to see, beware and be cautious and also for everyone to see that its unbiased.

Peace!

savage_carrot

Peace all,

Thanks David! ;D

Didnt quite understand. R u saying the mods/admins wont take any action on any abusive posts they spot if no member has complained about it?
I think all such posts should be dealt with, complaint made or not made.
No, I meant that I will try to clean it up wherever I see it! Till the 'notify mod/admin' tab is not present, I request people to send their complaints to the mods personally in the old fashioned way, just in case a mod has not seen the post.

I am not against permanent banning if it happens in steps like as planned. Hey, shouldnt the forum rules thread have a sticky?
And I would also suggest the mods/admins keep all the disciplinary actions including reasons transparent in a thread (one which can be used by only mods/admin, to avoid confusion) so that its transparent for every one to see, beware and be cautious and also for everyone to see that its unbiased.
I have sent a request to the admin to sticky it because I tried to do it and this thread got stickied instead -\ apparently some settings have been turned off. I agree with the transparency to avoid problems, in this I mentioned that the warnings be displayed under the avatar information as I think some forums have that. It's upto Layth though, if he thinks it's a good idea.

unknownuser

Hi SC,

I will try to clear up such language and personal remarks wherever I see them, and I hope you guys can help us out by sending a PM wherever you see them, so that conflicts can be defused before they have a chance to erupt and thus create more problems for everyone. I'm learning the ropes right now about the techinical aspects inclusive of cleaning up posts so please bear with me. Thanks.

Let me ask u frankly. U want us to report such posts, right?

So, what action has been taken reg the post I quoted? The member was previously temporarily banned for a week for breaking forum rules. R we gonna do anything now, since he has broken forum rules yet again in his post? According to the forum rules, he should have a temporary ban of 1 month, shouldnt he?

Peace!

savage_carrot

Peace PM,

So, what action has been taken reg the post I quoted? The member was previously temporarily banned for a week for breaking forum rules. R we gonna do anything now, since he has broken forum rules yet again in his post? According to the forum rules, he should have a temporary ban of 1 month, shouldnt he?
Banning is a group decision by consensus and for it to happen, strong evidence must be presented. If you feel strongly about it, please present your argument briefly and send it to all the moderators/admin.

unknownuser

Hi SC,

So, what action has been taken reg the post I quoted? The member was previously temporarily banned for a week for breaking forum rules. R we gonna do anything now, since he has broken forum rules yet again in his post? According to the forum rules, he should have a temporary ban of 1 month, shouldnt he?
Banning is a group decision by consensus and for it to happen, strong evidence must be presented. If you feel strongly about it, please present your argument briefly and send it to all the moderators/admin.

This is what makes the whole system confusing. What constitutes a strong evidence? So, with every post that one is asked to report, if u want us to make a strong case/argument, why is anybody gonna bother to spend so much time? And it should not be about if i feel strongly about it or not, It should be about 'is it right or wrong?'

I have a question coz I am really trying to understand.

Islam's peace comes AFTER conflict and victory over mischief, not as a result of lying down and taking fecal matter from the likes of you.

From
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5765.msg86937#msg86937

Is the language in the above post in line with forum rules or is it not? There is no middle way. So, let us know.
If it is in line with forum rules, people would understand that such language is acceptable in the forum.
If its not acceptable, then u convey so by taking action......appropriate action.

Please make things clear.

peace!

unknownuser

peace all. I agree with peaceful-muslim...A little more consistency,competence,ease,and speed is needed with these warnings....Which should be public/transparent,fully explained and swift...