who is a messenger of God?
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So, you think
- There can be other messengers after Muhammad
- A messenger is under wahi from God
This is my belief, correct.
We know that God has transmitted to Muhammad the quran (a new book) By wahi
We can only know this by a logical deduction as follows
- al-quraan exists in the world
- al-quraan comes from Allah to a messenger
- the messenger must have recieved al-quraan at a point in time before us.
I don't think the correct word is 'wahi' but 'inzaal'.
So, why would another messenger who would come after Muhammad not bring a new book (if he is under wahi) ?
What would this wahi from God bring him ?Why would he need to bring a new book if one already exists? Wahi doesn't refer to recieving a 'new' book. The concept of a 'new book' doesn't exist in al-quraan.
How can someone know he is receiving revelations from God ?
42/51-52 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-
So God's inspiration brings about faith, light and guidance.
OK, you will check in the quran.
But how did people living at the times of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham do (without the quran) to know they were messengers of God ?I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists. Al-quraan doesn't tell me of the process of a book 'replacement' process.
Why do you think the book of mormonism is not a coherent discourse to guide humanity ?
Could you argue ? What are your criteria ?
Same question about the writings of Bahaullah...
The bahai think it supersedes the quran. Why don't you agree with them ? What are your criteria ?My criteria is based upon my perception of the human being. I believe humans are a certain way in the world and I believe al-quraan is the best discourse to evolutionise them. Of course this is debatable as no one else can share my exact perception as no one can share anyone elses.
Let's assume you are living at some time before the revelation of the quran.
How would you have judged the teachings of Jesus, Mo?se, Abraham, and so on... ?
How would you have judged the teachings of Zarathushtra, Bouddha, and so on... ?I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists.
Let's assume someone (say idolfree) come to us, claims he is a messenger, and expose a discourse to guide humanity better the the quran (which supersedes it). Will you follow him and deem the quran as outdated ?
It depends if he can supercede al-quraan or not.
What is concretely "the book" ?
The book is God's writ for the human being. It contains the laws by which the human being can evolve and transcend decline and death.
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Peace all. Anyone who delivers a message of truth is a messenger(deliverer) or nabi.(informer.) The quran is one book or version about truth,there were others before(torah,bible,bhagvad gita etc..) and there will be others after as well.(maybe baihullahs book,science,new knowledge etc..) The previous and future books do not necessarily make the quran obselete,they just reiterate what was said earlier or make new discoveries/further clarifications. Revelation is an ongoing process.
Peace all. -
Peace nabi and all. Maybe the word 'deliverer' does not adequately convey the word rasool(or messenger.) How about 'instructor'?
Being a 'postman' is not what i was trying to convey. What are your thoughts on what a rasool and nabi are? Thanks.
Peace. -
So, you think
- There can be other messengers after Muhammad
- A messenger is under wahi from God
This is my belief, correct.
OK
We know that God has transmitted to Muhammad the quran (a new book) By wahi
We can only know this by a logical deduction as follows
- al-quraan exists in the world
- al-quraan comes from Allah to a messenger
- the messenger must have recieved al-quraan at a point in time before us.
I think it can be assesed with the 3 following verses
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.
And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
I don't think the correct word is 'wahi' but 'inzaal'.
I don't.
It is true the word inzaal is used for the quran, but it is used for many other things.
And among His Signs in this thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down anzalna rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to (men) who are dead. For He has power over all things.
After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down anzala calm on a band of you overcome with slumber
Yet, the real question still remains what is exactly wahi ?
So, why would another messenger who would come after Muhammad not bring a new book (if he is under wahi) ?
What would this wahi from God bring him ?Why would he need to bring a new book if one already exists? Wahi doesn't refer to recieving a 'new' book. The concept of a 'new book' doesn't exist in al-quraan.
It seems to me that you are playing with words.
We have inspired (awhayna) you as We have inspired (awhayna) Noah and the prophets after him. And We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We have given David the Psalms.
Muhammad was inspired with the same thing as Noah, Abraham, etc...
What did God inspire to him ?And thus We have inspired awhayna to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
So, if, after Muhammad, there are other messengers, why would they not be inspired their own reading (maybe in their own language) ?
How can someone know he is receiving revelations from God ?
42/51-52 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-
So God's inspiration brings about faith, light and guidance.
Let's assume that.
Are you writing with God's inspiration ?
What have been the books written with God's inspiration since the quran ?OK, you will check in the quran.
But how did people living at the times of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham do (without the quran) to know they were messengers of God ?I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists. Al-quraan doesn't tell me of the process of a book 'replacement' process.
Al-quraan tells many things about how it supersedes the previous revelations.
Before the quran, there was the torah and the injeel. So, there were books.
The jews living at the time of Muhammad have refused to abandon the torah and accept the quran.
Do you never fear to be like them, when you refuse to follow the teachings of Bahaullah for example ?Why do you think the book of mormonism is not a coherent discourse to guide humanity ?
Could you argue ? What are your criteria ?
Same question about the writings of Bahaullah...
The bahai think it supersedes the quran. Why don't you agree with them ? What are your criteria ?My criteria is based upon my perception of the human being. I believe humans are a certain way in the world and I believe al-quraan is the best discourse to evolutionise them. Of course this is debatable as no one else can share my exact perception as no one can share anyone elses.
So, it is your subjective faith.
It is not 100% based on reason.Let's assume you are living at some time before the revelation of the quran.
How would you have judged the teachings of Jesus, Mo?se, Abraham, and so on... ?
How would you have judged the teachings of Zarathushtra, Bouddha, and so on... ?I don't know because I live in a time where a book exists.
There were books at this time too.
Let's assume someone (say idolfree) come to us, claims he is a messenger, and expose a discourse to guide humanity better the the quran (which supersedes it). Will you follow him and deem the quran as outdated ?
It depends if he can supercede al-quraan or not.
- On which criteria should we judge it supersedes the quran ?
- Are you sure the quran can be superseded, while it is the best story ?
What is concretely "the book" ?
The book is God's writ for the human being. It contains the laws by which the human being can evolve and transcend decline and death.
Peace
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Good discussion JM, good discussion.
I think it can be assesed with the 3 following verses
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.
And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
What is your assesment from the above ayaat?
I don't.
It is true the word inzaal is used for the quran, but it is used for many other things.
And among His Signs in this thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down anzalna rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to (men) who are dead. For He has power over all things.
After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down anzala calm on a band of you overcome with slumber
Yet, the real question still remains what is exactly wahi ?
JM, 'awhaa' is used for al-quraan. Please see 42/7 which you quoted above.
Wahi is best defined in 6/112-113 which shows how shaitaan distracts one with stories.
It seems to me that you are playing with words.
We have inspired (awhayna) you as We have inspired (awhayna) Noah and the prophets after him. And We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and We have given David the Psalms.
Muhammad was inspired with the same thing as Noah, Abraham, etc...
What did God inspire to him ?And thus We have inspired awhayna to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
So, if, after Muhammad, there are other messengers, why would they not be inspired their own reading (maybe in their own language) ?
In 42/7, the word 'muhammad' doesn't occur. All nabiyeen recieved al-kitaab (2/213) one quality of which is 'mufassal (6/114). Therefore, if a new book appeared, it would have detail the same teachings as al-quraan.
Let's assume that.
Are you writing with God's inspiration ?
What have been the books written with God's inspiration since the quran ?I havent encounted any book which has the quality of inspiration as defined by the al-quraan.
Al-quraan tells many things about how it supersedes the previous revelations.
Before the quran, there was the torah and the injeel. So, there were books.Can you prove that at-tauraat and al-injeel were previous books? Al-quraan says all nabiyeen recieved AL-KITAAB (2/213).
The jews living at the time of Muhammad have refused to abandon the torah and accept the quran.
Do you never fear to be like them, when you refuse to follow the teachings of Bahaullah for exampleI dont know any of this. I only know what al-quraan tells me.
So, it is your subjective faith.
It is not 100% based on reason.And your 'jews at the time of muhammad' is based on reason? If so, what reason please?
There were books at this time too.
I dont know of any books. Show them to me please.
- On which criteria should we judge it supersedes the quran ?
- Are you sure the quran can be superseded, while it is the best story ?
Al-quraan says its 'ahsana alhadith' or the MORE beautiful hadith. How do you know something is better? By continous comparison. Bring a sura and compare.
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33 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela
544 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
Inna anzalna alttawrata feeha hudan wanoorun yahkumu biha alnnabiyyoona allatheena aslamoo lillatheena hadoo waalrrabbaniyyoona waalahbaru bima istuhfithoo min kitabi Allahi wakanoo AAalayhi shuhadaa fala takhshawoo alnnasa waikhshawni wala tashtaroo biayatee thamanan qaleelan waman lam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faolaika humu alkafiroona
Thee here refers to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We know that law of of Prophet Musa (SAW) and Prophet Isa (SAW) were sent down to jews.
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Here is another verse for the people who believe that Qur'an is centuries old scripture and was given to all the Prophets is wrong concept according to Qur'an.
365 Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?
I am sick of all these insults directed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
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KGBThee here refers to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We know that law of of Prophet Musa (SAW) and Prophet Isa (SAW) were sent down to jews.
KGB, humble apologies but 'thee here refers to ..' isn't good enough for me and neither that 'we know that...'. I need Quranic evidence. Whatever the case, I respect your differences with me, the important thing is that we maintain civility in our discussion.
I am sick of all these insults directed at Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
What insults ? Am I guilty of any insult? Please show me and I'm ready to correct myself. THanks.
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KGBCan you please provide proof that Qur'an is not Allah revelation to Prophet Muhammad (SAW)?
No I can't because I'm not asserting that it isn't. Here's how I view al-quraan
- I am born into the world
- I encounter certain things.
- One of those things is a book with ayaat (ayat - that which refers to something beyond itself)
- These ayaat convince me that this book is from Allah.
This book would have been revealed before me, long before me for the first time. But I don't know the name of the receipient. History calls him 'Muhammad ibn Abdullah'. Ok, I don't mind using that but I wont stick by it. Its history to me.
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MQuran its not history which is calling him Prophet Muhmmad (SAW). Its the clear verses of Qur'an the words which are the clear proof of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
You are trying to take certain words from these ayat and try to run away with it with your and Kyle's (Idolfree) understanding which is very dangerous because you two will be misguiding God knows how many who are visiting this forum.
Can you veryify each and every word of Qur'an? Certainly not. You have to believe in the words of Allah as they are in clear verses.
PS If anybody get offended by writing SAW with Prophet Muhammed name than I am willing to change it to Peace be upon him if English words you find more acceptable.
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Not me dear KGB, peace be upon all servants of Allah....................
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Peace be upon you KGB,
MQuran its not history which is calling him Prophet Muhmmad (SAW). Its the clear verses of Qur'an the words which are the clear proof of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Show one example of the PHRASE "Prophet Muhammad" )
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Peace be upon you Kyle
4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
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7158 Say,
O mankind! Indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no god except Him, He gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow him so that you may be guided.Al Nabi Al UmiAnybody who do not believe in Muhammad (SAW) was the Prophet and Messager of Allah is not a believer (kafir). This is what Qur'an clear verses teaches me. This is no my judgement.
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Peace KGB. Im sorry my friend...This is your judgement of the verse....Dont speak on behalf of allah please...This is the mistake that some on this forum make....Speaking on 'behalf' of god with,such certainty....
Can you guarantee that in two years time you wont change your mind on your interpretation of this verse?...If you do change your mind,then just consider the offense and/or harm you might have caused by wrongly branding people as non-believers...
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you KGB,
Instead of giving me a verse that does not fulfill my request, it is just best to say that it cannot be done. I will put my request here again.
YOU said
MQuran its not history which is calling him Prophet Muhmmad (SAW). Its the clear verses of Qur'an the words which are the clear proof of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).To which I said
Show one example of the PHRASE "Prophet Muhammad"
Then you gave a verse that DOES NOT say "prophet Muhammad".